Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and the Turks

[S.Y.A]

even C. S. Lewis did this when he wrote narnia

 

[S.Y.A]

the Calormen he portrayed reflected Ottoman, Indian and Persian culture, they were bearded, black, wore turbans and were dressed in robes

Calormenes are described as dark-skinned, with the men mostly bearded. Flowing robes, turbans and wooden shoes with an upturned point at the toe are common items of clothing, and the preferred weapon is the scimitar. Lavish palaces are present in the Calormene capital Tashbaan. The overall leitmotif of Calormene culture is portrayed as ornate to the point of ostentation. The people of Calormen are concerned with maintaining honour and precedent, often speaking in maxims and quoting their ancient poets. Veneration of elders and absolute deference to power are marks of Calormene society. Power and wealth determine class and social standing, and slavery is commonplace. The unit of currency is the Crescent. Narnians hold Calormenes in disdain for their treatment of animals and slaves. Conversely, Calormenes refer to the human inhabitants of Narnia as "barbarians". All of this appears quite consistent with the Osmanli Turkish Ottoman Empire (1299-1923), its known and purported splendor, rigid class structure, and the always-volatile relationship with many of its European neighbors.

 

[Deno]

How does him relating to real life events make him a racist?

If you really know Tolkein you would know that he really is a racist...

 

[Dalai Lama]

Wow! Never got any of these references when I was reading the book - Apart from the Eastern men being Persians and the Mammoth riders being Indians.

Good book though.

 

[t-birds]

Under the tutelage of the neighboring Franks, a barrier of pocket states formed along the range of the Pyrenees and on the coast of Catalonia to hold the frontier of France against Islamic Spain. Out of this region, called the Spanish March, emerged the kingdom of Aragon and the counties of Catalonia, all of which expanded, as did Leon-Castile, at the expense of the Muslims. (Andorra is the last independent survivor of the March states.)

 

[mattr]

If you really know Tolkein you would know that he really is a racist...

Bullshit, he made a perfectly reasonable argument (though by today's state of politics, it would not count much), whereas you just refer to some secret, absolute knowledge, athough there is nothing secret at all. The question of Tolkien's racism is a very well-known topic and not a clear-cut matter. Some have already mentioned his disgust at some real world racism (opposed to treatment of Africans because of skin-colour) and there are other well-known examples, like Nazi Germany. The complaints about the elephants I find completely irrelevant here, but while they were mentioned in this thread, they are the source of some naive sense of wonder in the book and there famously is a passage of sympathy and identification with a fallen Haradrim where skin colour doesn't figure at all, and they basically represent any misled and misused soldier in history.

Tolkien was famously against allegory or symbolism, which of course doesn't mean he wasn't directly inspired or even lent from histoy. However, you can't directly translate it as his "opinion" about the actual people, and the evil in his older history doesn't bear reference to any specific "people" at all and is present in any culture. Evil is a theological or ideological matter, always a risk, not one of being of a chosen and a doomed people. I suppose his theology also made him hesitant about depicting wars as just, without there being some mythological, demonic creatures as in Beowulf, naturally driven towards other's and in return their own destruction, however the people exist separately from that and are political entities.

Also writer himself was in ww1 and lost 3 friends,(check his biography) believing every British propaganda told to British soldiers(they were claiming we eat human flesh) furthermore after long allied bombardment some coasts of Turkey were exactly like Mordor(in real not so different from rest of continental Europe). It seems like he really believed that they were there to save western world from evil Turks

His supposed hate for Turks being from his friends' deaths is an absurd idea, as they died in France fighting against Germans. And Mordor also looks like destroyed environment, him being a lover of nature.

 

[Anka]

His supposed hate for Turks being from his friends' deaths is an absurd idea, as they died in France fighting against Germans. And Mordor also looks like destroyed environment, him being a lover of nature.

In wikipedia it was stated that he fought in Gallipoli campaign, now it says he fought in western front so this corrodes most of my claims. But still British had an extensive effort to brainwash the soldiers so some ideas might have this kind of origin.

 

[Developereo]

Ursula K. LeGuin (a white German feminist) has been scathing in her criticism of Western fantasy novels. Most of them are set in medieval Europe + plastic headdresses + couple mythical creatures. The protagonists are always white males.

She went out of her way to introduce non-white and female protagonists in her novels.

That's why LOTR was so pathetic. It was basically Europe in the Middle Ages with some CGI and a bunch of English farmers with funny ears.

 

[Audio]

Ursula K. LeGuin (a white German feminist) has been scathing in her criticism of Western fantasy novels. Most of them are set in medieval Europe + plastic headdresses + couple mythical creatures. The protagonists are always white males.

She went out of her way to introduce non-white and female protagonists in her novels.

That's why LOTR was so pathetic. It was basically Europe in the Middle Ages with some CGI and a bunch of English farmers with funny ears.

The Haradrim maybe? With their exotic English accents and elephants on steroids? And the handler that looks like he ran straight out of some South Asian horror story? though, i did not miss the Scottish accent of the dwarves!
As for powerful women, there's no shortage of them in LOTR, Arwen (defended Frodo against LK and his posse), Eowyn (kills LK with a stereotypical line "i am no man"), Galadriel (she's actually the most powerful witch in Middle Earth, not counting Sauron)

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Anyhow, great thread, i read all the books, own all the directors cut editions, and was #6 in the world in RTS game made by EA! (when i played approximately, 6-7 years ago, played Gondor and then later on Gondor+Rohan in a new faction called "Men of the West" and Mordor)

Just out of curiosity, if LOTR is an attempt at portraying west-east conflict, like some say in this thread (Turkey comparison, supposed racism when people realized their own are portrayed as villains) what would Saruman be? And his horde?
He is situated further to the west then all major kingdoms of men. Also, LK had his domain in the far north of Middle Earth (Angmar), who is he representing?

 

[Developereo]

The Haradrim maybe? With their exotic English accents and elephants on steroids? And the handler that looks like he ran straight out of some South Asian horror story? though, i did not miss the Scottish accent of the dwarves!
As for powerful women, there's no shortage of them in LOTR, Arwen (defended Frodo against LK and his posse), Eowyn (kills LK with a stereotypical line "i am no man"), Galadriel (she's actually the most powerful witch in Middle Earth, not counting Sauron)

The protagonists are white, predominantly English, males.

The rare female protagonists are side characters.

LeGuin was making a broad commentary on the genre and her criticism is valid, broadly speaking.

 

[Audio]

The protagonists are white, predominantly English, males.

The rare female protagonists are side characters.

LeGuin was making a broad commentary on the genre and her criticism is valid, broadly speaking.

You don't think this maybe has something to do with the fact Tolkien was English, white male and that female heroines aren't easily identifiable by fantasy reading men (though GRRM made a good exception to this with Arya Stark and Daenerys Targaryen, to some extent with Cersei Lannister as well)? That's besides the fact you quote a feminist commenting on men. Of course there will be criticism. We're all chauvinists for them.

You can take a hint from recent movies, Iron Man, Superman, Batman in regards to easily identifying with heroes......

 

[Developereo]

You don't think this maybe has something to do with the fact Tolkien was English, white male and that female heroines aren't easily identifiable by fantasy reading men (though GRRM made a good exception to this with Arya Stark and Daenerys Targaryen, to some extent with Cersei Lannister as well)? That's besides the fact you quote a feminist commenting on men. Of course there will be criticism. We're all chauvinists for them.

You can take a hint from recent movies, Iron Man, Superman, Batman in regards to easily identifying with heroes......

Yes, as an ardent feminist, she is obviously pushing a particular perspective. But I think her point was that fantasy writers don't target a wider audience. The racial aspect I can understand, but the gender bias seems very short sighted, especially given that girls read as much as, or more than, boys.

 

[Audio]

Yes, as an ardent feminist, she is obviously pushing a particular perspective. But I think her point was that fantasy writers don't target a wider audience. The racial aspect I can understand, but the gender bias seems very short sighted, especially given that girls read as much as, or more than, boys.

It could be connected to the fact it was written in the 30's.

 

[Leader]

this is how you hit imagination of your generations and mold them to your agenda !!

 

[Anka]

Just out of curiosity, if LOTR is an attempt at portraying west-east conflict, like some say in this thread (Turkey comparison, supposed racism when people realized their own are portrayed as villains) what would Saruman be? And his horde?
He is situated further to the west then all major kingdoms of men. Also, LK had his domain in the far north of Middle Earth (Angmar), who is he representing?

In my opinion Saruman is the French king during 1500's when France was allied with Ottoman Empire against Catholic Spain and Italy. Sauron is Suleiman the Magnificent with his daring assaults into Europe. There are also many details fit perfectly to this logic like the similarity of the siege of Minas trith and siege of Vienna. Also the captured city Gandalf mentions which occupied by mordor reminds me Istanbul.