To Fight India, We Fought Ourselves

[Joe Shearer]

Damn straight!

Yes, that is reality, the truth - Pakistan have offered themselves on a plate to the Indian - That the Indian is inclined to say"No thanks, you die alone" is another matter. Once again the GHQ geniuses who came up with this idea and who want to convince the world that they no longer have control over their creatures, and the only way to save the world is to these geniuses behind, who sold their idea of Jihad and proxies to an ignorant populace, as salvation of Pakistan, have only led to a situation where all action (active) is in the hand of India and Pakistan and of course the glorious Fauj plays the passive feminine role (needs saving).

Perhaps the Indian should have a better response than sarcasm, to those Pakistanis who seek their assistance to save Pakistan -

Perhaps you are right, and sarcasm in the face of the dilemma that the Pakistani people confront is unbecoming. It is just that all Pakistanis, Ahmedis and Shia included, cooperated enthusiastically to build the apparatus that is now busy tearing Pakistan to bits. Even today, except for really infuriating and sanctimonious remarks from the Interior Minister and the Foreign Minister of Pakistan, there is not, among the rulers, the slightest signs of compunction, of remorse at what they intended for others, and is haunting them today. At least lip service would lessen the pain; nobody hopes for any genuine effort to check the problem on the ground.

 

[Joe Shearer]

See we all know that Pakistan has raised and grown terror and terrorists with fully open eyes with a view towards destabilizing India and in this endeavours they have also recruited a number of Indian muslims. Our govt hasnt helped itself by stoking suspicions on indian muslims thereby driving more of them to ISI. So even if the LeT and other ISI raised Pak terorrists are held in leash, the recent development of Indian Muslims driving terror in india will be used by Pak govt to cause mayhem for the sake of terror in India. I feel the only way to respond is in kind by diverting the ISI attention away from India, which is by trying to destabilize Pakistan and that is the need of the hour.

I don't think you get the point.

The ISI couldn't care tuppence that Pakistan is getting destabilized. If they had, the problem would not exist today. ISI money wouldn't be flowing into the hands of the terrorists still. But they don't care. They do care that India suffers and Indians die.

Trying to use intelligence agents to destabilize Pakistan and distract the ISI will not work. The destabilization of Pakistan at its own hands is well under way, and the independent bloodshed in India run by the ISI will not be interrupted. All that such a strategy will achieve is to make us the moral equivalents of those whom we are fighting.

 

[muse]

Perhaps you are right, and sarcasm in the face of the dilemma that the Pakistani people confront is unbecoming. It is just that all Pakistanis, Ahmedis and Shia included, cooperated enthusiastically to build the apparatus that is now busy tearing Pakistan to bits. Even today, except for really infuriating and sanctimonious remarks from the Interior Minister and the Foreign Minister of Pakistan, there is not, among the rulers, the slightest signs of compunction, of remorse at what they intended for others, and is haunting them today. At least lip service would lessen the pain; nobody hopes for any genuine effort to check the problem on the ground.

Mr. Hamid is not a govt official -- no govt official would have put the reality of the situation in those straight forward terms, even if they are fully aware of it.

And be rest assured that those who came up with this strategy of proxies and Jihad are in no way inconvenienced by the position that Pakistanis find themselves in -- For my money their creatures let loose upon Pakistanis have been done so with cool, calm calculation, and they will be called off, with equally cool, calm calculation -- Mr Hamid imagines that GHQ is being forthright in saying that they do not and cannot control their creatures, GHQ, I would contend has not been a paragon of transparency and straight truthful talk, quite the opposite.

When GHQ feels the pain (read ISI and Col. and above officers), we will see these creatures begin to disappear.

 

[jetti]

I don't think you get the point.

The ISI couldn't care tuppence that Pakistan is getting destabilized. If they had, the problem would not exist today. ISI money wouldn't be flowing into the hands of the terrorists still. But they don't care. They do care that India suffers and Indians die.


Trying to use intelligence agents to destabilize Pakistan and distract the ISI will not work. The destabilization of Pakistan at its own hands is well under way, and the independent bloodshed in India run by the ISI will not be interrupted. All that such a strategy will achieve is to make us the moral equivalents of those whom we are fighting.

Ok maybe I am being blinded by emotion when I make this suggestion.. But surely there is something the ISI would care about which if we do overtly or covertly that will make them drop their trained guns on India.
PS - THe ISI will care about Pak being destabilised for they cant afford periodic truncation of their country and people thus diluting their power.

Mr. Hamid is not a govt official -- no govt official would have put the reality of the situation in those straight forward terms, even if they are fully aware of it.

And be rest assured that those who came up with this strategy of proxies and Jihad are in no way inconvenienced by the position that Pakistanis find themselves in -- For my money their creatures let loose upon Pakistanis have been done so with cool, calm calculation, and they will be called off, with equally cool, calm calculation -- Mr Hamid imagines that GHQ is being forthright in saying that they do not and cannot control their creatures, GHQ, I would contend has not been a paragon of transparency and straight truthful talk, quite the opposite.

When GHQ feels the pain (read ISI and Col. and above officers), we will see these creatures begin to disappear.

Now, how will this happen when GHQ and ISI have full support of the Pakistani people whom they are inconveniencing by their actions.
How or what will make GHQ and ISI feel pain , not in literal terms but in terms of making them stop support of not only terrorists but also of them stop killing in india - I am interested only in this.

 

[indushek]

Mr. Hamid is not a govt official -- no govt official would have put the reality of the situation in those straight forward terms, even if they are fully aware of it.

And be rest assured that those who came up with this strategy of proxies and Jihad are in no way inconvenienced by the position that Pakistanis find themselves in -- For my money their creatures let loose upon Pakistanis have been done so with cool, calm calculation, and they will be called off, with equally cool, calm calculation -- Mr Hamid imagines that GHQ is being forthright in saying that they do not and cannot control their creatures, GHQ, I would contend has not been a paragon of transparency and straight truthful talk, quite the opposite.

When GHQ feels the pain (read ISI and Col. and above officers), we will see these creatures begin to disappear.

No solutions sir?? something like starting at basics?? building a common bond between the common Pakistani irrespective of Ahmedi Hindu Shia Sunni etc etc ?? can't it be done??

Hatred cannot stand before love as it will be eaten alive.

Perhaps you are right, and sarcasm in the face of the dilemma that the Pakistani people confront is unbecoming. It is just that all Pakistanis, Ahmedis and Shia included, cooperated enthusiastically to build the apparatus that is now busy tearing Pakistan to bits. Even today, except for really infuriating and sanctimonious remarks from the Interior Minister and the Foreign Minister of Pakistan, there is not, among the rulers, the slightest signs of compunction, of remorse at what they intended for others, and is haunting them today. At least lip service would lessen the pain; nobody hopes for any genuine effort to check the problem on the ground.

Will not a destabilised polarised Pakistan be the biggest danger for us?? A opponent who loves existence life a peg in the evening , golf etc etc can be expected to take rational decisions, what can we expect from a person shouting at the top of voice for Caliphate and Ghazwa e Hind??

 

[muse]

No solutions sir?? something like starting at basics?? building a common bond between the common Pakistani irrespective of Ahmedi Hindu Shia Sunni etc etc ?? can't it be done??

Hatred cannot stand before love as it will be eaten alive.
Will not a destabilised polarised Pakistan be the biggest danger for us?? A opponent who loves existence life a peg in the evening , golf etc etc can be expected to take rational decisions, what can we expect from a person shouting at the top of voice for Caliphate and Ghazwa e Hind??

Indushek:

To my thinking, there are several ways out of this, and again, I'm betraying my bias, but Economy, Economy and Economy, are three solutions I can think of at the top of my head - Pakistan need to go through what we are going through, it's a universal law, Karma is not just (rhymes with "Witch"), it's also reality, it's a universal law.

Economy is dignity - Dignity inside Pakistan, and not just for the fat cats.

 

[indushek]

Indushek:

To my thinking, there are several ways out of this, and again, I'm betraying my bias, but Economy, Economy and Economy, are three solutions I can think of at the top of my head - Pakistan need to go through what we are going through, it's a universal law, Karma is not just ******, it's also reality, it's a universal law.

Economy is dignity - Dignity inside Pakistan, and not just for the fat cats.

True words sir but right now the utmost priority is for people to keep Pakistan as one. Piroritizing should be done.

 

[OrionHunter]

Pakistan is in the grips of militancy because of its fraught relationship with India, with which it has fought three wars and innumerable skirmishes since the countries separated in 1947. Militants were cultivated as an equalizer, to make Pakistan safer against a much larger foe. But they have done the opposite, killing Pakistanis at home and increasing the likelihood of catastrophic conflicts abroad.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...-india-we-fought-ourselves.html#ixzz2LhOktKGC

That, in a nutshell, is the truth and nothing but the truth! Until and unless the PA/ISI stop this proxy war against India using terrorists of all hues and shades to 'bleed India with a thousand cuts' (Zia) things will continue to deteriorate in Pakistan. There is no such thing as 'good' and 'bad' terrorists. They all need to be decimated. But will the Pak establishment bite the bullet?

Take for example Hafiz Saeed's daily rants against India on the streets of Lahore accompanied by his henchmen brandishing Kalishnikovs as though they own Pakistan. What has the establishment done to such yahoos who continue to vitiate the atmosphere? Shouldn't they be put in the freezer for starters? But what does the Pak government say? "Oh, don't bother. They are the fringe elements. And it's a democracy where everyone can air his opinion". Really?

That 'airing of his opinion' is resulting in the recruitment of more jehadis and therefore more anti India tirades and sentiment. And people talk of peace with India! They should first sweep their own house clean before even thinking of a peaceful co-existence with India. Otherwise it's all just plain rhetoric.

So who in Pakistan will bell the cat? At least not the PA/ISI, since these terror groups are their so called 'strategic assets' as Kayani himself mentioned to his American counterpart not too long ago.

In other words, peace with India is a mirage. There are too many vested interests that want hostilities to continue - from politicians to extremists to terrorists to the PA/ISI. And these vested interests are too strongly entrenched in Pakistan, so even thinking of peace is a distant dream.

 

[GURU DUTT]

there are some facts that nobody can deny

1. PA & ISI raised and reared these proxies to keep india bizzy but in deu course lost control over them and these same very strategick asstets are bittng the hands that fed them

2.Its too late for india to care about what and how PA manages to control them india and indians are more interested in getting there act together rather than to think over pakistan and its so called non state actors

3.in deu course deu to PA's policy to sell these crazy tallibunnies to local populace and win over there and genral citizens sympathy and suport for the ****** cause pakistan has destroyed all of its social and economical & political infrastructure and made land of the pure into a wild wild west which can not be controlled at leaast in near future

4.now world sees pakistan with suspicion even china dosent takes pakistan very serousli and is more intersted in tapping paksitans strategikk ports and its mineral resources which paksitan is more than happy to sell even if it costs its long term strategick and economical goals

so in short pakistan has lost the plot compleatli and has unfortunateli come to point of no return with all its big brothers watching it with disgust and suspecion its a sad sad state of affairs and theres hardli anything left for pakistan to be proud of