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To all Indian members here. A question...

i would disagree with you though i am indian provocation was made by nehru when he supported tibet freedom fighter and gave safe place for dalai lama howeverchina has bad track record with neighbours example vietnam

This is not very good history, on several counts.

First, it is a myth that India supported Tibetan freedom fighters, at least in the form that this myth is perpetuated.

The fact is that the CIA helped the Khampa to keep up their resistance from the semi-independent principality of Mastang on the Sino/Tibetan-Nepalese border. Beyond a point, these Khampa tribals, although akin to the Sherpas of Nepal proper, made themselves a nuisance, and the Royal Nepalese Army moved in, under Chinese prodding, and cleaned them out.

This was one of the incentives for China's action in promoting a Maoist take-over of Nepal, which is in progress as we write these posts.

On the question of China's bad record with its neighbours, I would rather leave that alone; it is like the famous Shiv Sastry (of Bharat Rakshak fame) argument: "Your shirt is torn!" "So what? Your fly is open!" It doesn't sound good.

China attacked and occupied Tibet forcefully, tell me why shouldn't India have supported DL? What is the provocation in it? And the Tibetan refugees feared for their lives so they escaped to India. Are you suggesting that we should have shot them when they crossed over to India? How do you turn back helpless refugees who are running for their lives. Moreover, officially India accepted Tibet as a part of China and that is our stance till date. So stop repeating this 'support of Tibetan movement' theme again and again. It is incorrect and baseless. All we did was accept Tibetan refugees who had trekked hundreds of miles in the mountains to escape the PLA and reach India.

Stop apologizing to the Chinese. We were beaten because they were stronger, period. It will not happen ever again.

No point going into that. But if Phizo had been actively allowed to build a government in exile in Burma, or in East Pakistan as it then was, what would our reactions have been? The opposition of the Chinese is not to the Dalai Lama's personal safety, it is to the government in exile located on Indian soil.

No,history of wars(not even World wars) has not been discussed in Indian school textbooks.In fact,modern China or Pakistan has rarely ever been mentioned.

Any general Indian is oblivious about the 1962 war.:)

I myself came to know about it when i came across some Chinese and Indians fighting about it on youtube.(same for wars with Pakistan).

This is true. There is no good military history of the 62 Incident. There are excellent individual accounts by Indian officers, truly good to read, but they do not give the full picture, the big picture. They are memoirs, not histories.

We need an A. H. Amin.


i think it was nehrus fault ,, he knew we were hopelessly ill prepared for this kindo conflict... and untimately paid the prise of weath ,los of life and national humiliation... it was like a boy singing and dancing hindi chini bhia bhai , ultimately got kicked on his balls!!

It was regrettably more nefarious than this. It was a boy doing all that you have described, and stealing the neighbourhood silver when he thought nobody was watching.

He/we were lucky to get away with that painful punishment.

Any future confrontations with india and china will have nuke angle to it, as china being militarily superior to india.

Respectfully, that is stuff and nonsense. We have a NoFirstUse policy; do you think the Chinese, the militarily superior, will use the device first?

Even if a future a confrontation happens ( although i doubt it ) , it will be more of a kind of skirmish..both country knows each other's capability and the damage a war can do...so.forget Nuke angle, the confrontation will not last for even a week just like in 87...

It depends entirely on if the CPC feels threatened. When it feels threatened, the PLA reacts with devastating effects.

The problem is not with the public, if u can see at the time of Mumbai attacks the public went as far as to say that they will stand with the government in case of war with Pakistan, I have heard many say how long would this hide and seek go on, fight the scum and blast them out. If in the process we take one or two nukes so be it, we can rebuild its better than dying like this. This was the public mood, if the govt had the balls to do the war nobody i say nobody would have opposed then. Its just that the corrupt netas without balls and adept at securing money for them simply lack the will. As in 62 and the netas are same, they are unwilling to take a stand.

This is a reasonable assessment, although none have any idea of what is involved in a nuclear holocaust.

In my eyes the Chinese wanted to teach India a lesson after we provided Dalai lama with sanctuary, because in their eyes we were supporting a 'free tibet'. But India was a passive state under Nehru who believed the chinese would never attack India how wrong he was, but in the long term it was a blessing for India as it thought as that defence should be no1 priority and u cant trust China.

True, defence should be a high priority.

True, one should trust nobody, not China in particular, but nobody, not the US, not Britain, not anybody.

Actually the lesson to be learnt is we should not trust anybody. And that defence is no.1 priority for any country.

As above.

Sincerely,
 
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Sir, I am blown away. This was a far more detailed and informative response than I could have hoped for. I am in your debt.


[THIS SECTION OFF TOPIC: ONLY INDIANS TO READ THIS SECTION PLEASE]

Look at what happened twenty years later. A sharp contrast.

In 1982 and before and after, during the Chinese conflicts with Vietnam, when Deng was Chief, and everybody took their cue from him, we saw a different story. The invincible PLA had its nose bloodied by a hard-fighting Vietnamese Army which put up its traditional rugged, indefatigable resistance to their old foes, their historical enemy. It was a lesson to the PLA, even more of a lesson to the Indian Army.

[END OF SECTION OFF-TOPIC]

No need for an Indian eyes only section. I am not very knowledgeable
about the PLA's history having grown up with English sources, but I will readily admit the PLA's excursion into Vietnam was a poor performance by any account.

And indeed similar to India's 1962 experience, the war debarked the PLA on a painful and long term revamping and modernization program.
 
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No,history of wars(not even World wars) has not been discussed in Indian school textbooks.In fact,modern China or Pakistan has rarely ever been mentioned.

Any general Indian is oblivious about the 1962 war.:)

I myself came to know about it when i came across some Chinese and Indians fighting about it on youtube.(same for wars with Pakistan).

That's rather surprising. Then may I ask where Indians would go for popular consumption of history or academic works on history.

Is the internet an important source for history in India?
 
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1962 was only a small war,no matter victory or defeat ,no need to be keep in mind for so long time~~forget it and forward~~
 
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That's rather surprising. Then may I ask where Indians would go for popular consumption of history or academic works on history.

Is the internet an important source for history in India?

Dear Sir,

A typical undergraduate degree in history from, say, Calcutta University, would have comprised of the following eight papers:
  1. Indian History I: from the earliest times to the commencement of the Delhi Sultanate;
  2. Indian History II: the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire, until 1707;
  3. Indian History III: from 1707 till the independence of India;
  4. Ancient Greek History: from 499 BC to 404 BC, covering basically Herodotus as well as Thucydides;
  5. Mediaeval European History, from 800 AD to 1250 AD;
  6. European History, from 1756 to 1918;
  7. Tudor and Stuart Britain;
  8. International Relations: 1918 to 1939.

As you will notice, there is no place for studying contemporary affairs. I taught myself military history, with particular reference to the military history of India post-independence, by buying and reading a plethora of books. Besides, the dozens of books given to my father to review were my plunder after he had finished. I read both Sun Tzu and Mao on War from such plunder.

History is not an Indian strong point.

Sincerely,
 
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1962 was only a small war,no matter victory or defeat ,no need to be keep in mind for so long time~~forget it and forward~~

Dear Sir,

You are right, of course, but things don't work like that. I sent a very emotional private mail to Cardsharp; if you communicate with him, he may consider sharing it. The matter is beyond rationality; it is an emotional issue, entirely.

Sincerely,
 
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That's rather surprising. Then may I ask where Indians would go for popular consumption of history or academic works on history.

Is the internet an important source for history in India?

It is not like this that History is not taught in schools, however that contains topics from ancient history and text books generally does not talk about modern days wars. I was taught about war fought with Mugals and Britain but never about Pakistan or China war. Text books contain war fought by Rani Laxmi Bai, War of Haldi Ghati fought by Raja Prathvi Raj with Mugals. You get to learn about modern days wars by your parents, newspapers, Movies (very famous movie “Border” based on India Pakistan war) and other history books.
 
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Food for thought -

1. One wonders, if the PRC had NOT annexed Tibet, would there be territorial disputes between India and the PRC?

2. When the PRC DID annex Tibet and if India refused to accept Chinese claims over Tibet, would the PRC still dispute McMahon's line or try to muster Indian support for recognition?

3. Was the "Forward Policy" militarily realistic?

4. While the Indian Army was definitely outgunned and out manouvered, did they really fail to offer battle?

5. Considering that the IAF had relatively better resources at its disposal in the war-zone than its counterpart, with more airstips than the PLAF could muster, would the IAF's employment and subsequent attacks on the PLA's logistics decide a different outcome of the debacle?

6. Does ANYBODY till date know, which PLA regiments were involved?

7. Does ANYBODY has any realistic data on the PLA's casualities?

8. Do people understand that the PLA had COMPLETELY collapsed its own LOC?

9. Do people know that while the PLA had collapsed its LOC, two completely fresh, IA Divisions were rushing north?

10. Would it be better to call the 1962 war, a propaganda victory rather than a military victory?

11. Which military rushes with its tail between the legs to its pre-war positions, after making substantial territorial gains?
 
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1962 was only a small war,no matter victory or defeat ,no need to be keep in mind for so long time~~forget it and forward~~

China still occupies thousand of kilometer of Indian Land, and keeps invading our lands again and again. How can we forget the martyr of 1962 war… China can’t be and should not be trusted again.
 
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Mr. Shearer sent me the following pvt msg after I thanked him for his invaluable input.

Dear Sir,

The exercise left me emotionally drained. Clio is a jealous mistress; she demands the truth, as one sees it, and nothing less will suffice as an offering for her altar.

However, I was left at the end of the post with wet eyes and an aching heart.

I would like to make the point in public, if you permit me to, that this issue has gone beyond the rational. Your point about building up a democratic consensus is valid and rational, but it fails to take into account the enormous Himalayan mountain of shame and guilt that hangs over an entire country.

In my humble opinion, the Chinese government is doing all that it should, more than it needs to have done, but has not 'got' the truth: this issue is beyond reason. The same facts, the same basics, have to be conveyed at two levels; the rational, and at the emotional. Unfortunately, there is no compulsion at this moment for Peking to do anything to placate Indian public opinion, and India is too weak and powerless to do anything but sit and feel intensely humiliated at the mere memory of the Incident. You may have noticed our Pakistani friends referring to this again and again whenever they run out of any sane arguments.

The only way forward is a slow way, for the Indian public to be educated and to accept it gradually, over the next decade, or two, even; the fast way might be some very slick wooing by Peking, which, alas, is unlikely to happen.

A start must be with the truth. We have to tell our own people the truth.

Thank you for the thread, and simultaneously, I wish sincerely you had not started it. It hurts too much. :-)

Sincerely,

And I think he is at the crux of the matter. This conflict goes beyond mere facts and the psychological implications of the conflict matters much much much more than who possessed a strip of frozen highland or even how many died on each side.
 
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Food for thought -

1. One wonders, if the PRC had NOT annexed Tibet, would there be territorial disputes between India and the PRC?

2. When the PRC DID annex Tibet and if India refused to accept Chinese claims over Tibet, would the PRC still dispute McMahon's line or try to muster Indian support for recognition?

3. Was the "Forward Policy" militarily realistic?

4. While the Indian Army was definitely outgunned and out manouvered, did they really fail to offer battle?

5. Considering that the IAF had relatively better resources at its disposal in the war-zone than its counterpart, with more airstips than the PLAF could muster, would the IAF's employment and subsequent attacks on the PLA's logistics decide a different outcome of the debacle?

6. Does ANYBODY till date know, which PLA regiments were involved?

7. Does ANYBODY has any realistic data on the PLA's casualities?

8. Do people understand that the PLA had COMPLETELY collapsed its own LOC?

9. Do people know that while the PLA had collapsed its LOC, two completely fresh, IA Divisions were rushing north?

10. Would it be better to call the 1962 war, a propaganda victory rather than a military victory?


11. Which military rushes with its tail between the legs to its pre-war positions, after making substantial territorial gains?

The war wasn't as much about territory as it was about political mileage. Either way, a propaganda victory is a victory. We did nothing ( 0 ) to counter their claims.

As far as I can tell, our defenses along the Chinese border are still less than adequate.

While they're building airstrips and roads, we've taken 22 years to decide what to buy (artillery). :tup:
 
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China still occupies thousand of kilometer of Indian Land, and keeps invading our lands again and again. How can we forget the martyr of 1962 war… China can’t be and should not be trusted again.

Naive to believe in your big mouth media,If China want to "invade" "Indian land",she would did in 1962
Strategic focus of China is Taiwan ,South sea and North Kerea,and India is not in the Top 5 focus~~May be that’s called “some Indian Aggression paranoia”
 
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Originally Posted by deltacamelately View Post
11. Which military rushes with its tail between the legs to its pre-war positions, after making substantial territorial gains?

Sir, the reasons are rather obvious: That Army had achieved most of its objectives (which were not unlimited). That Army had stretched its logistic chain rather thin given the topography and the weather factors. That Army was now beginning to face a tactical situation that they were not prepared for. Hence that Army withdrew. Withdrawal is also a valid military tactic.Hope that helps.
 
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Objection your honour, leading question.
No offence intended, but then, it is more of a factual statement than a question to be frank. What it means is, the troops had to be pulled back from the theatre, because there was no way they could hold land, deprived of the basics. The logistic tail had stretched too long and thus had completely collapsed. An army fights on its belly and belly crawlers can't fight with zero food, water and ammo when the enemy is zeroing on you afresh.
 
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