Time to come down to earth

[sab]

Well, I think Pakistanis have been brought 'down to Earth' already. I think what Musharraf was proposing to India over Kashmir would have been treason before 9/11 but now more and more people are beginning to talk about.
Anyway, as much as these self-flagellating people here are right about the problems they don't offer solutions except vague terms like 'revolution; China; Gwadar; JF 17; post America Taliban dominated Afghanistan; condemning all politicians; conspiracy theories; Madrassah reforms...'
Where are the solutions? Tangible, immediate, and concrete ones?
To me that is obvious: A realignment of Pakistani state's entire world outlook by making peace with India. The rest is going to fall in place. Pakistan was not some backward Wahabbi Arab country like Yemen or Saudi Arabia as late as late 70's. But the policies pursued in Afghanistan--with India in mind--Pakistan has let lose cancerous elements inside. Now, even in the best outcome in Afghanistan post-America for Pakistan things will not be pretty. More of the same. Draw a trajectory of potential outcomes and you will see still an Afghanistan with proxy wars and a Pakistan with the jihadis roaming around inside.

If people are fade up with government and existing political parties, they can start a new one. PDF ilself has several thousand members. Just chart out the problems and ask everyone to contribute for the solutions. Make them your propaganda and spread it among people. The Mullahs, the so-called defenders of Islam and corrupt politicians can not be defeated unless you have a vision for a modern Pakistan and make people stubbornly follow that. But first you you need to find out what change you want to see in pakistan. One of my friend Blackblood (now he has changed his ID) once started a beautiful thread regarding education in Pakistan and they discussing it on facebook too. But, the thread died within few weeks. Surprizingly there were more Indian members active on it than the Pakistani members. I hope he will revive it and get something constructive out of it.

 

[AstanoshKhan]

Ibrar ul Haq put it very nicely into his poetry. It's a facebook video though.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=154491771238377

AIK DIN INQALAB AEGA"

Sar jalaengai Roshni hogi
Us ujale mai faisle honge
Roshnai bhi khoon ki hogi

Aur woh faaka ksh kalam jismai
jitni cheekho ki daastanen hain
Unko likhne ki arzoo hogi

Na hi lamha Qarar ka hoga
Na hi rasta farar ka hoga
Woh adalat gareeb ki hogi
Jaan Atqi Yazeed ki hogi

Aur phr aik faqeer ka bachha masnado per bithaya jaega
Aur tarazoo ke donu palro mai surkh lamho ko tola jaegaa
Sabqaa HAKMEEN HAZIR hon naam wa wald bola jaega
Jo Yateemo ki taraf uthai thai aise hatho ko tor dalengai
Aur jisne Rondhi gareeb ki asmat, uski gardan maroor dalengai

Jisne bechi hai kalam ki takat
Jisne apna zameer becha hai
Jo dukaane sajae bethai hain
Such se daman churai bethai hain
Jisne becha Azaab becha hai
Mufliso ko saraab becha hai
Deen ko behisaab becha hai
Kuch ne Roti ka khuwab becha hai

AUR KYA KAHEN HUM
K Qoum ne khud ko kis tarah baar baar becha hai

Faiz-o-Iqbal ka parosi hun
ik tarap mere khoon mai bhi hai
Ankh mai silsila hai khuwabon ka
ik mehek mere chaar soo bhi hai

Jhonpri k naseeb badlengai
Phr kaheen INQALAB Aega
bethe rehne se kuch nhe hoga
AIK DIN INQALAB AEGA
AIK DIN INQALAB AEGA
AIK DIN INQALAB AEGA

 

[llvllrPaki]

All of this would not be happening today if it was not for the US backed and "selected" democracy. People of Pakistan did not vote for corrupt incompetent scum sitting in our parliament today.

Sitting on 198 billion tons of lignite and some of the largest rivers on earth is not exactly resource starved.

I swear you are absolutely right

 

[RazorMC]

The problem today is that we don't have alternatives to the current ones that sit in government. The opposition is not much different either. Their history shows who they are. The biggest loss to Pakistan is the absence of true Pakistanis, uncontrolled by someone else, devoid of corrupt tendencies and unwilling to succumb to those ideologies that have hardly been accepted in their places of origin.

Then there is the issue of withholding information for another time, possibly to blackmail someone. It lends credibility to Hamid Gul when he says we don't have the tech to fight the US. Or that the government is complicit in the same drone-attacks that they vehemently condemn. Zaid Hamid becomes an instant hero and savior because there is so much silence on the government level. Why all this duplicity? All this hypocrisy tarnishes our image as Pakistanis.

People around the world are questioning the terrorist activities in Pakistan. Why isn't the government openly stating where their thinking comes from and spare us the embarrassment?

I admire the Military and its discipline and the tremendous will it has, but they need to stop hiding the truth from the people of Pakistan. Shahid Aziz mentioned that P.Musharraf only called on the Core Commanders for advice after a base had been sold to the US. Why aren't these actions made public?

We need a serious change in our attitude otherwise we go back to the stone-age without the US dropping any bombs at all.

And revolution? Who's going to take part and who's going to oppose? Take care that we don't install even worse people as leaders.

 

[deckingraj]

bhai sahab im not talking abt army intervention at all, i am talking about the over haul of this fake democracy system, and to snatch away the governance from the elite class to the common pakistani!!!, are you kidding with your post or what??

No mate i am not kidding....Let me make it more simpler for you....

Here is what i wrote in the previous post

Though there are many however let me say none...so what are other options???

What i am trying to say is that you don't have a better option...Throwing away the current govt. is not going to make things easy for you...It is going to make things worse for you....You need to give time to your civilian govt(irrespective of the corrupt behaviour) and make them strong....Do you think GOI is not corrupt??? Have you heard about the magnitude of scams in India??? The reason you feel that current govt. is inept because general perception is that it is Army who is patriot and civil govt. is worthless...which may or may not be right but no one ponders that civil govt. never got the real powers....The biggest issue with Pakistan is her foreign policy and we all know who formulates it.....In short the path to a true democracy is long and difficult but is the right one....You will choose leaders who are corrupt because there are not many choices...but as the time passes and democracy matures new breed of leaders will come and replace the currupt one's...remember there is every chance that even those will be corrupt but definitely less corrupt....Once the electoral process matures people will start voting for progress rather than what region,religion etc the person belongs to....

 

[Mabs]

While I do not disagree with the military credentials and expertise of the author, he is hardly an economic expert. I can right now bombard this thread with loads of interviews of the "real" economic experts who really know what they are talking about. We are neither poor nor resource starved. What we lack is the will to turn things around. I am the last person to be in denial but that does not mean that I'll sit here and listen to someone who has absolutely no knowledge of economics, twist facts. I took four courses in college on Economics, one being Analysis of Pakistan's Economy and I know more than this guy.

 

[deckingraj]

The problem today is that we don't have alternatives to the current ones that sit in government. The opposition is not much different either. Their history shows who they are. The biggest loss to Pakistan is the absence of true Pakistanis, uncontrolled by someone else, devoid of corrupt tendencies and unwilling to succumb to those ideologies that have hardly been accepted in their places of origin.

Very well said...but what is the root cause of this...Patriotism is Pak is not less than anywhere in the region....One need to look into that aspect as well....one need to ask a question from where do you get good leaders....Good leaders cannot be breeded with some special gene pool, right???

Then there is the issue of withholding information for another time, possibly to blackmail someone. It lends credibility to Hamid Gul when he says we don't have the tech to fight the US. Or that the government is complicit in the same drone-attacks that they vehemently condemn. Zaid Hamid becomes an instant hero and savior because there is so much silence on the government level. Why all this duplicity? All this hypocrisy tarnishes our image as Pakistanis.

Can't agree more on this...but then Army has its own style of working...AFSPA is one such issue in India....Even though there are ample studies done on this subject which tells that this act has not helped in solving the root cause yet IA is adamant in it...To be fair with them they need some act to carry on their operations however they lack the acumen that this act might be helping them in carrying out their operations but is defeating the same cause for which they are there in the first place.....I typical catch 22....Now why all this silence - well ask the Army, your civilian govt. can't do anything about it....

People around the world are questioning the terrorist activities in Pakistan. Why isn't the government openly stating where their thinking comes from and spare us the embarrassment?

Million dollar question...perhaps it might embarras further....perhaps certain section is still termed as strategic assets....who knows...

I admire the Military and its discipline and the tremendous will it has, but they need to stop hiding the truth from the people of Pakistan. Shahid Aziz mentioned that P.Musharraf only called on the Core Commanders for advice after a base had been sold to the US. Why aren't these actions made public?

As said Army has its own way of working....They prefer playing hard ball than using soft power of diplomacy...A free media and Army udner civilian govt. are teh ingredients that are required for such a thing....

We need a serious change in our attitude otherwise we go back to the stone-age without the US dropping any bombs at all.And revolution? Who's going to take part and who's going to oppose? Take care that we don't install even worse people as leaders.

Can't agree more on this...

 

[President Camacho]

The Pakistani people badly need to make this democratic set-up a success. I know many will say that this particular govt. is so corrupt, we did not vote for it and stuff like that. But the fact is, every single government in the past was corrupt.

Today, it is not corruption that is the main threat to the state of Pakistan. Rather, it is the chaotic state and breaking up of the confused society that is allowing the harm to pervade through every aspect of Pakistan. Corruption has always been there, in fact it is there in every country. But the level of corruption differs. To change that, first the populace has to realize its power and that realization will come only through the success of a democratic setup.

Once this govt. completes its term, people will vote for the next party, may be a different one, in the hope that it will drastically change Pakistan for the better. But nothing happens overnight. Even next govt. may be corrupt, but - the next govt. will know the fact that people can also bring it down if it doesn't show the results. By the time the third govt. forms, people will have fully realized their power, and will exercise a strong grip on the governments that are brought to power. It will not be an aristocracy under the garb of theocracy anymore!

Once the parties are tamed by the people, they will be forced to become answerable. There will still be corruption, but the people will have a greater control, and the chaotic society will become more harmonious, heading in a single progressive direction. That will create a united Pakistan and all the major decisions taken by the governments will be for the benefit of the people. Not for those elite class rulers.

I know it looks like a long tedious journey of say 5-10 years, but think about it - If the people had united and done the same in the '90s, today you would be living in a peaceful, ideal Pakistan. May be, if the people let the democratic trend be a success this time, within 5-10 years you would be living in the Pakistan that you crave for now. Otherwise, 5-10 years down the line, and we will still be left only to contemplate who is in power - the people, the army, the civil govt., or the U$?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

All of this would not be happening today if it was not for the US backed and "selected" democracy. People of Pakistan did not vote for corrupt incompetent scum sitting in our parliament today.

Sitting on 198 billion tons of lignite and some of the largest rivers on earth is not exactly resource starved.

Why blame the US?

Who elected the Govts?

Who allowed the Army to subvert democracy?

The US will naturally promote those people and those Govts that suit their agenda.

USSR also has been in this mug's game.

And maybe even China.

All global powers have to maintain their hegemony and they do this to those nations which fit their agenda.

Others possibly have been more vigilant.

And it is not that it has been tried in Pakistan alone.

 

[Nagraj]

okies don't get me wrong .
but this is what i also used to think initially

@ Tfaz,
Sir, I had always thought that this forum is run by ISI or its organization..
But reading you and other moderators posts, I can conclude that you lot are to quite an extent neutral.
Every body is a patriot, and I can feel the agony in you words when you type this.
We wish your country the best for the future.
Just curb eradicate all and every form of terrorism from Pakistan. Do not categorize them into good or bad.
Then things will start falling into the right place.
The world wants to help you, it is not against you..

 

[Nagraj]

but i guess people are choosing their sides rather than supporting anyone based on natinality or religion

 

[Nagraj]

baah u are asking for a lot from him

Why blame the US?

Who elected the Govts?

Who allowed the Army to subvert democracy?

The US will naturally promote those people and those Govts that suit their agenda.

USSR also has been in this mug's game.

And maybe even China.

All global powers have to maintain their hegemony and they do this to those nations which fit their agenda.

Others possibly have been more vigilant.

And it is not that it has been tried in Pakistan alone.

 

[AAtish]

Why blame the US?

It is US, thats the sole reason corruption started in Pakistan, offers were too high for selfish people to ignore..

Who elected the Govts?

37 million bogus votes..

Who allowed the Army to subvert democracy?

Patriotism.. to protect the country.. we would had been in such situation 50 years ago if it was not for the Army..

The US will naturally promote those people and those Govts that suit their agenda.

Supporting and promoting are two different things..

USSR also has been in this mug's game.

Who doesn't know that?

And maybe even China.

China has proven to be our friend, always, we were never betrayed by them, you won't understand this so leave it..

All global powers have to maintain their hegemony and they do this to those nations which fit their agenda.

Others possibly have been more vigilant.

And it is not that it has been tried in Pakistan alone.

Agreed..

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It is US, thats the sole reason corruption started in Pakistan, offers were too high for selfish people to ignore..

And the remainder stood still as mute spectators?

Corruption was not there before 1954?

37 million bogus votes..

It means that no Pakistanis voted.

The ballot boxes were filled by remote control?!

Patriotism.. to protect the country.. we would had been in such situation 50 years ago if it was not for the Army..

And the Fauji Foundation is what makes the nation's flag flying high? No corruption there.

So, an Army is required to keep Pakistanis on the straight and narrow and patriotic?

Pakistanis otherwise tend to go off the rails?

Supporting and promoting are two different things..

Nathu Singh and Prem Singh both are the same thing!

Support means foisting!

And foisting is promoting!

Who doesn't know that?

Many didn't.

You maybe one of the brilliant ones who did!

China has proven to be our friend, always, we were never betrayed by them, you won't understand this so leave it..

It was not without reason that it is said - there are no permanent friends or enemies. There are only permanent interests.

US was taken as a great friend of Pakistan. There is enough of commentaries to that effect.

 

[manishmaithani]

It is US, thats the sole reason corruption started in Pakistan, offers were too high for selfish people to ignore..



37 million bogus votes..



Patriotism.. to protect the country.. we would had been in such situation 50 years ago if it was not for the Army..



Supporting and promoting are two different things..



Who doesn't know that?



China has proven to be our friend, always, we were never betrayed by them, you won't understand this so leave it..



Agreed..

[QUOTE=AAtish;1795329]It is US, thats the sole reason corruption started in Pakistan, offers were too high for selfish people to ignore..
Why again ignoring Pakistani people ? Be brave.



37 million bogus votes..So if manmohan singh government is corrupt then it means 2/3 votes of 1.22Billions people of India are bogus ?

Patriotism.. to protect the country.. we would had been in such situation 50 years ago if it was not for the Army..Sorry more than 60 years and still struggling.

Supporting and promoting are two different things..
if it is political sense then almost same because mordern world history already is example of this.

Who doesn't know that?

same thinking. But not earlier Time of Pakistan. might be because of Ayub? and im not confirm..

China has proven to be our friend, always, we were never betrayed by them, you won't understand this so leave it..Again sorry to say.. there is no friend in International diplomacy only people of the counrty are Brerethren and no one else you can learn from india..if you will not mind. Somehow i believe that America is the best because its utilizing Chankya theory in a best way, but not we asian and we are still fighting on behalf of religieon