Tibet issue

[ChineseTiger1986]

Nothing disingenuous.

It only meant was that it was not meant to ruffle feathers, but just a statement on Han Culturalism and that it maybe unsavoury, but there was no rancour that was underlining it. It was merely a statement of facts.

Hong Kong and Macau ethnicity could be debated. Historically speaking, the forced assimilation and the humiliation that was doled out to those who were non Han made them accept the Han label and Han values.

That is why 97% are Hans. Obviously, the whole of China as it is now, was not Han at the outset. It is the wars of the various dynasty and the expansionism towards the South and the reasons mentioned above caused people to classify themselves as Hans. The fact that the Chinese govt made simplified Chinese proves the point that what is known as Chinese language is a whole lot of languages which are mostly mutually unintelligible to varying degree.

Chinese speak Mandarin (about 850 million), followed by Wu (90 million), Cantonese (Yue) (70 million) and Min (50 million) and these languages are Mutually unintelligible.

Even their cuisine is different.

Therefore, that all Chinese have a common linguistic, cultural and ethnic link is an exaggeration that is excellent otherwise to promote a one country identity.

Factually, the efforts being made in Tibet and Xinjaing to Hanise or Sincize them, is an indicator of the mode of assimilation practices in the earlier time to make all the people, be they the inner or the outer people, civilised or barbarians, into Hans.

The fact that the Tibetans and the Uyghurs are resisting becoming Hans is why the same status given to HK and Macau cannot be given to Tibet or Xinjiang as so wisely and honestly said by Cross.

If you believe China should be splitted because of many different languages, then what about India?

Languages of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So do you think they can understand each other with their native tongue?

I am a Wu speaker, and i am a Han Chinese first and having no problem of understanding Mandarin which is also my mother tongue.

And China never forced the minorities to become Han Chinese, the minority groups can keep their mother tongue and tradition, but learning Mandarin would make them easier to communicate with the majority Han Chinese. Also, One child policy only applies to Han Chinese, not to the minority ethnicities.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I think he was trolling, but haven't done his homework properly.

Understand the meaning of trolling and then give labels as the Communist Chinese are famous for doing - Capitalist roader.

I am aware that the script is same, but the meaning is different.

You maybe flying the flag of Canada, but it appears you do not understand the English meaning of 'mutually unintelligible'.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

^^^ Ray, instead of copying straight from Wikipedia, try to actually understand the ideas involved.

I doubt that will happen though.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Understand the meaning of trolling and then give labels as the Communist Chinese are famous for doing. Capitalist roader.

I am aware that the script is same, but the meaning is different.

You maybe from Canada, but it appears you do not understand the meaning of 'mutually unintelligible'.

The Chinese language was an ancient language which has been evolved for thousands years. Of course, there gonna have more linguistic diversification than a nation less than 300 years like US.

But if you take the modern English and compared it to the Old Saxon, do you still think they are 'mutually intelligible'?

BTW, having studied English for over decade, i can't understand a single sentence from the Old Saxon, neither a modern native English speaker would understand it.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If you believe China should be splitted because of many different languages, then what about India?

Languages of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So do you think they can understand each other with their native tongue?

I am a Wu speaker, and i am a Han Chinese first and having no problem of understanding Mandarin which is also my mother tongue.

And China never forced the minorities to become Han Chinese, the minority groups can keep their mother tongue and tradition, but learning Mandarin would make them easier to communicate with the majority Han Chinese. Also, One child policy only applies to Han Chinese, not to the minority ethnicities.

Do forgive me, but you are an odd fish.

Are we in conversation about Indian languages?

Who has claimed that there is ONE language in India?

India's motto, in case you are ignorant of it is - Unity in Diversity.

We are proud of our difference and it is not language alone and we promote it without fearing a split.

Those who impose one language, one culture forcibly are those who are apprehensive and feel that dominating all is the only way out to show superiority and cow everyone down.

As far as minorities I am not talking of the recognised 56 of them. I am speaking of history.

Most linguists argue, however, that the definition of ‘‘dialect’’ means that it is mutually intelligible by users of other ‘‘dialects’’ of the same language. The Chinese government claims that eight dialects of the language exist within the national boundaries: Mandarin, Wu, Jin, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Yue, and Min. The problem with that definition, of course, is that none of these so-called dialects is mutually intelligible with the other. The people who speak them may very well be united by their Han* descent and their shared eclectic mix of Buddhist, Taoist,and Confucian religious beliefs, but they cannot understand one another’s spoken languages, which should render them members of different ethnic groups.

Olson - An Ethnohistorical Dictionary China

I take it that you do not know more than the Chinese Govt itself, or do you?

Also trawl (not troll, just in case you forget) through the thread and read about what I have written on Han Culturalism.

 

[bigmoneymaker]

tiki tam is finding a way to break apart china? i think you have chosen the tough way, be aware of mutual unintelligibility in a place called india first rather than worry about that problem of china. dialects only appear when the communication is very difficult during ancient times, nowaday you can see people use chinese script and type chinese in internet, your wildest dream to split and differentiate this kinda bond will be smashed by this increasingly frequent use of common-language.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Most linguists argue, however, that the definition of ‘‘dialect’’ means that it is mutually intelligible by users of other ‘‘dialects’’ of the same language. The Chinese government claims that eight dialects of the language exist within the national boundaries: Mandarin, Wu, Jin, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Yue, and Min. The problem with that definition, of course, is that none of these so-called dialects is mutually intelligible with the other. The people who speak them may very well be united by their Han* descent and their shared eclectic mix of Buddhist, Taoist,and Confucian religious beliefs, but they cannot understand one another’s spoken languages, which should render them members of different ethnic groups.

Olson - An Ethnohistorical Dictionary China

I take it that you do not know more than the Chinese Govt itself, or do you?

Also trawl (not troll, just in case you forget) through the thread and read about what I have written on Han Culturalism.

Even the High German speakers can't understand the Low German dialect, yet Northern Germany and Southern Germany were still united as a single country.

Do you think because some linguistic barrier would encourage them to deny their German identity?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The Chinese language was an ancient language which has been evolved for thousands years. Of course, there gonna have more linguistic diversification than a nation less than 300 years like US.

But if you take the modern English and compared it to the Old Saxon, do you still think they are 'mutually intelligible'?

BTW, having studied English for over decade, i can't understand a single sentence from the Old Saxon, neither a modern native English speaker would understand it.

A rather pathetic attempt at justification!

The Chinese Govt admits that there are eight dialects of the language exist within the national boundaries: Mandarin,eight dialects of the language exist within the national boundaries: Mandarin, Wu, Jin, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Yue, and Min.

I presume that the Chinese Govt is not delusional to state that eight dialects of the language exist within the national boundaries: Mandarin, Wu, Jin, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Yue, and Min are ancient languages and not spoken now.

How can you be a Wu speaker and have Mandarin as the Mother tongue?

BTW, if all Chinese were one, then why does history speak of the Han as the inner people (nei ren) and of the outer people (wei ren), as 'barbarians'?

Or distinguished between ‘raw barbarians’ (shengfan) or the unassimilated people and the ‘cooked barbarians’ (shufan)?

Let us not defend the indefensible.

No one is holding present China for the past. But the past can't be washed away through rhetorical callisthenics!

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

tiki tam is finding a way to break apart china? i think you have chosen the tough way, be aware of mutual unintelligibility in a place called india first rather than worry about that problem of china. dialects only appear when the communication is very difficult during ancient times, nowaday you can see people use chinese script and type chinese in internet, your wildest dream to split and differentiate this kinda bond will be smashed by this increasingly frequent use of common-language.

Funny that he can't even break Tibet apart from China, yet he is trying to break the Han Chinese apart? lol

He should worry about his own country breaking into hundred pieces in the future, remember the Maoist insurgents, cough cough...

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Even High German speakers can't understand the Low German dialect, yet Northern Germany and Southern Germany were still united as a single country.

Do you think because some linguistic barrier would prevent them to deny their German identity?

True, but then do not gloss over and pretend that the difference does not like as you all are trying to state.

That is the difference.

You run away from the truth and reality and forward bogus justification. While others like those in Germany and India are proud of their difference and do not impose one culture, language on others who make up their country.

That is the difference. Just check this thread and see the obfuscation galore to prove something that is totally a contrived identity.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Most linguists argue, however, that the de?nition of ‘‘dialect’’ means that it is mutually intelligible by users of other ‘‘dialects’’ of the same language. The Chinese government claims that eight dialects of the language exist within the national boundaries: Mandarin, Wu, Jin, Gan, Xiang, Hakka, Yue, and Min. The problem with that de?nition, of course, is that none of these so-called dialects is mutually intelligible with the other. The people who speak them may very well be united by their Han* descent and their shared eclectic mix of Buddhist, Taoist,and Confucian religious beliefs, but they cannot understand one another’s spoken languages, which should render them members of different ethnic groups.

It doesn't matter what outsiders such as yourself think.

It all comes down to how different societies make the distinction between language and dialect.

Chinese people believe that they are speaking the same "Chinese language" (Hanyu)... which is divided into different "dialects", such as Guangdonghua and Shanghaihua.

The written form is the same for all, the only difference is between traditional and simplified characters.

As for how Westerners define the difference between language and dialect, this handy principle comes to mind. From your beloved Wikipedia:

A language is a dialect with an army and navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It doesn't matter what outsiders such as yourself think.

It all comes down to how different societies make the distinction between language and dialect.

Chinese people believe that they are speaking the same "Chinese language" (Hanyu)... which is divided into different "dialects", such as Guangdonghua and Shanghaihua.

The written form is the same for all, the only difference is between traditional and simplified characters.

As for how Westerners define the difference between language and dialect, this handy principle comes to mind. From your beloved Wikipedia:

A language is a dialect with an army and navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You make a mistake Mr Dragon.

It is not wikipedia, it is Olson - An Ethnohistorical Dictionary China.

And this book does not come free either.

I am afraid your link indicates you do not understand English.

Dialect means:

1. A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.

2. A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient Greek.

3. A language considered as part of a larger family of languages or a linguistic branch. Not in scientific use: Spanish and French are Romance dialects.

 

[ZhengHe]

If I can, as one man alone, break China, then China is as fragile as the beautiful and yet delicate Chinese Ming pottery.

lol what the hell?

man you're pretty strange

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

man you're pretty strange

The word "strange" does not even begin to describe this guy.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Simplified Chinese was promoted by the PRC so as to create the myth of One China, even though tit was proposed in the beginning of the 20th Century.