Thread by request: Issues facing Pakistan and their potential solutions

[VCheng]

It would give me immense pleasure if two of us could get involved in a thread where you can pin-point out the deeply specific flaws you find, and I shall address them wherever I can find with a reasonable explanation. It will give me an opportunity to share your great insight and also learn from you too without risk of de-railing our current thread

I am creating this thread by request, but the mods are free to delete it if they so decide.

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The two main specific flaws are:

1. The Objectives Resolution, which mixes matters of religion with matters of State, and is proving to be nearly fatal to the country.

2. The Army continues to overreach in many areas beyond its legal mandate, leading to severe deleterious consequences for the country.

The above two are specifically worded, but the more general issues fall into four broad areas:

1. The collapsing economy.
2. The abysmal social development.
3. The utterly failed state institutions.
4. The adrift foreign and defense policies.

All of the above are made infinitely worse by insisting on existing policies simply because the magnitude of change required is beyond the comprehension of those who formulate them, and they would rather suppress any criticism than make the required changes in order to preserve the status quo that benefits them immensely.

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I look forward to your explanations @salarsikander and subsequent discussion if it survives the traditional whataboutery and personal attacks instigated by design.

 

[salarsikander]

I am very grateful the Vcheng has agreed to discuss the above topics with me.

the pain purpose of opening the thread is to get an idea of another extreme and as we all are aware of view posed by Vcheng now matter how deeply annoying or antagonizing they are but deep down they do provoke a thought process. We do not have to agree with everything that everyone says here and that is the beauty of discussion and that's how it is learned, otherwise we will be just stuck without own dead dormant thoughts/Ideas

I would appreciate if there would be no name calling or outright whataboutery about the topic at hand., If you do not agree, please present better arguments as we all are here to learn from each other, If one does not have better argument to present then it is better to remain silent as mentioned in Hadeeth as well.

Getting Personal or name will result in immediate ban from the thread as I will personally myself request to mods @Dubious @waz to assist us in this regards

I will be getting back to where I can with my limited knowledge, others are encouraged to forward their input as well on topic(s) at hand

 

[Sine Nomine]

1. The Objectives Resolution, which mixes matters of religion with matters of State, and is proving to be nearly fatal to the country.

2. The Army continues to overreach in many areas beyond its legal mandate, leading to severe deleterious consequences for the country.

Poking the beehive.
Religious and Military Brigade chargeeeeeeeee

 

[salarsikander]

he idea of separate homeland for the Muslims of India was presented in the form of Lahore resolution in 1940, which was accepted in June 3rd, 1947 and according to the Indian independence Act July 18, 1947 the new state of Pakistan came into being on August 14, 1947.

Under the section 8 of the act the Government India act 1935 became the first constitution with some adaptations. Under the Indian independence act a constitutional assembly was set for drafting the constitution of Pakistan and to act as a legislative body tells the new constitution was passed and enforced.

Liaquat Ali Khan presented the Objectives Resolution in the Constituent Assembly on March 12, 1949. Following were the main clauses of the resolution:

1. Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone, who would delegate it to the state of Pakistan trough its people for being exercised within the limits as a sacred Trust.
2. The state shall exercise its power and authority through the choose representatives of the people.
3. The principle of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed
4. Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective sphere in accordance with teaching of Islam ad set out in Holy Quran and Sunnah.
5. Adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely exercise their religion and develop their cultures.
6. Pakistan shall be a federation.
7. Fundamental right shall guarantee.
8. Judiciary shall be independent.

Objectives Resolution was constitutional historic frame work provided mechanism to achieve goals for a better life of the people of Pakistan. The objective resolution had the combine feathers of both western democracy and Islam.

When the resolution was passed by constitutional assembly Liaquat Ali Khan considered it the most important occasion in the life of his country.

The Objectives Resolution became a part of constitution of Pakistan in 1985 by 8th amendment

In a nutshell, this is what objective resolution is for those of us who are not well aware of it. According ot the above arguments it is being said that the above is flawed and has proven to be fatal for the country. We shall Have an in-depth discussion as to how it Fatal, providing, linking evidence wherever available and stats
@VCheng Please present your argument in detailed manner as how has that proven fatal with wherever the data is available

 

[VCheng]

@VCheng Please present your argument in detailed manner as how has that proven fatal with wherever the data is available

Oh bhai kyon Pakistan ko maar rahay ho. There is a difference between "proven fatal" and "is proving to be nearly fatal".

 

[salarsikander]

Oh bhai kyon Pakistan ko maar rahay ho. There is a difference between "proven fatal" and "is proving to be nearly fatal".

LOL. If I am not wrong perhaps are you pointing to the facts that Seeds of extremism were sowed here?

 

[VCheng]

LOL. If I am not wrong perhaps are you pointing to the facts that Seeds of extremism were sowed here?

Absolutely.

 

[salarsikander]

The Objectives Resolution, which mixes matters of religion with matters of State, and is proving to be nearly fatal to the country.

But this is the very basis of this country and removing objective resolution would effectively kill the reason why this country was founded in first place

Absolutely.

But if You look deeply in the religion itself, It establishes a very high standard of governance that does give rights to minorities more than we what our currently system offers

 

[VCheng]

But this is the very basis of this country and removing objective resolution would effectively kill the reason why this country was founded in first place


But if You look deeply in the religion itself, It establishes a very high standard of governance that does give rights to minorities more than we what our currently system offers

Please keep in mind that the implementation of the OR is up to the governance we have, not the governance we wish we had.

But this is the very basis of this country and removing objective resolution would effectively kill the reason why this country was founded in first place

That is a self-serving argument put forward by those who regard themselves as the thekedars of religion in Pakistan in order to keep their hold on society by instilling fear. Pakistan is a huge country where all matters of state should remain free from any personal matters such as religion if it is to serve all its citizens equally, and nothing will happen to it if the OR is repealed. Indeed, updating the legal foundations of any country in order to meet modern challenges only strengthens it. Ignoring such periodic amendments where needed is a surefire way to obsolescence and ultimate failure.

 

[salarsikander]

Please keep in mind that the implementation of the OR is up to the governance we have, not the governance we wish we had.

If you're linking the issue of extremism with OR as the basis of this, Then it must be known that extremism root cause lies within the context that is being taught by Islamic teacher or so the interpretation by the one who studies and this has been for 1400 years or so now, I am yet to ascertain if OR is the root cause or one of the causes of such action

 

[VCheng]

If you're linking the issue of extremism with OR as the basis of this, Then it must be known that extremism root cause lies within the context that is being taught by Islamic teacher or so the interpretation by the one who studies and this has been for 1400 years or so now, I am yet to ascertain if OR is the root cause or one of the causes of such action

Consider how the OR has been used as a potent tool over the last several decades to create the overall environment as it exists in Pakistan today.

 

[salarsikander]

Pakistan is a huge country where all matters of state should remain free from any personal matters such as religion if it is to serve all its citizens equally, and nothing will happen to it if the OR is repealed.

The crux of the matters here is that as mentioned by Justice Cornelius as well, I cant remmber the correct citation but I believe so if I am not wrong it should be found in

https://oup.com.pk/constitutional-and-political-history-of-pakistan.html
or
https://oup.com.pk/a-history-of-the-judiciary-in-pakistan.html

Where he has categorically stated and supported the sharia system of justice and emphasized that if our ulema were able to interpret correctly the governance and system would benefit immensely. Sadly much is left to be desired for in this arena

Consider how the OR has been used as a potent tool over the last several decades to create the overall environment as it exists in Pakistan today.

My dear sir you will have to be elaborative on that to give us a complete understanding and linking OR with what we are today so that the readers can understand as well as me too, Are you by any chance vaguely referring to first mini martial law of Lahore in 52 ?

 

[M. Sarmad]

But this is the very basis of this country and removing objective resolution would effectively kill the reason why this country was founded in first place

Objectives Resolution was not the very basis of this country. Quite the opposite, the first thing this nation got after the death of its Founding Father M.A. Jinnah was the "Objective Resolution" of 1949; a perfect antithesis of Jinnah`s vision ...



1) The resolution was debated for five days.

Hindu members of the Constituent Assembly argued that the Objectives Resolution differed with Jinnah's view in all the basic points.

Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya said: "What I hear in this (Objectives) Resolution is not the voice of the great creator of Pakistan - the Quaid-i-Azam, nor even that of the Prime Minister of Pakistan the Honorable Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, but of the Ulema of the land." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 12, 1949]

Birat Chandra Mandal declared that Jinnah had "unequivocally said that Pakistan will be a secular state." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 9, 1949]

Bhupendra Kumar Datta went a step further: ...were this resolution to come before this house within the life-time of the Great Creator of Pakistan, the Quaid-i-Azam, it would not have come in its present shape...." [ Constituent Assembly debates March 8, 1949]





2) According to Muhammad Munir, the Chief Justice of the Federal Court, the terms of the Objectives Resolution differed in all the basic points of the Quaid-i-Azam's views e.g:

a). The Quaid-i-Azam has said that in the new state sovereignty would rest with the people. The Resolution starts with the statement that sovereignty rests with Allah. This concept negates the basic idea of modern democracy that there are no limits on the legislative power of a representative assembly.

b). There is a reference to the protection of the minorities of their right to worship and practice their religion, whereas the Quaid-i-Azam had stated that there would be no minorities on the basis of religion.

c) The distinction between religious majorities and minorities takes away from the minority, the right of equality, which again is a basic idea of modern democracy.

d) The provision relating to Muslims being enabled to lead their life according to Islam is opposed to the conception of a secular state.



3) The Ulema themselves claimed that the Quaid-i-Azam's conception of a modern nation state became obsolete with the passing of the Objectives Resolution on 12th March 1949. (Munir Report p-203)



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So, The Non Muslims in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, The Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Ulema of Pakistan admitted that The Objectives Resolution was against the vision of Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

 

[VCheng]

My dear sir you will have to be elaborative on that to give us a complete understanding and linking OR with what we are today so that the readers can understand as well as me too, Are you by any chance vaguely referring to first mini martial law of Lahore in 52 ?

All of that history in in the previous century. Just look at how Pakistani society has changed in this century and what it has become now with fake religiosity, extreme intolerance and unbridled hypocrisy in the name of religion, using all the little steps taken previous that created these monsters I mention. PDF can be used as an example if need be for ease, from members to the management.

 

[salarsikander]

All of that history in in the previous century. Just look at how Pakistani society has changed in this century and what it has become now with fake religiosity, extreme intolerance and unbridled hypocrisy in the name of religion, using all the little steps taken previous that created these monsters I mention

isnt that due to cultural upbringing and failing ulema education system about religion? One can hardly find Islamic research centers in the country these days

Objectives Resolution was not the very basis of this country. Quite the opposite, the first thing this nation got after the death of its Founding Father M.A. Jinnah was the "Objective Resolution" of 1949; a perfect antithesis of Jinnah`s vision ...



1) The resolution was debated for five days.

Hindu members of the Constituent Assembly argued that the Objectives Resolution differed with Jinnah's view in all the basic points.

Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya said: "What I hear in this (Objectives) Resolution is not the voice of the great creator of Pakistan - the Quaid-i-Azam, nor even that of the Prime Minister of Pakistan the Honorable Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, but of the Ulema of the land." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 12, 1949]

Birat Chandra Mandal declared that Jinnah had "unequivocally said that Pakistan will be a secular state." [ Constituent Assembly debate March 9, 1949]

Bhupendra Kumar Datta went a step further: ...were this resolution to come before this house within the life-time of the Great Creator of Pakistan, the Quaid-i-Azam, it would not have come in its present shape...." [ Constituent Assembly debates March 8, 1949]





2) According to Muhammad Munir, the Chief Justice of the Federal Court, the terms of the Objectives Resolution differed in all the basic points of the Quaid-i-Azam's views e.g:

a). The Quaid-i-Azam has said that in the new state sovereignty would rest with the people. The Resolution starts with the statement that sovereignty rests with Allah. This concept negates the basic idea of modern democracy that there are no limits on the legislative power of a representative assembly.

b). There is a reference to the protection of the minorities of their right to worship and practice their religion, whereas the Quaid-i-Azam had stated that there would be no minorities on the basis of religion.

c) The distinction between religious majorities and minorities takes away from the minority, the right of equality, which again is a basic idea of modern democracy.

d) The provision relating to Muslims being enabled to lead their life according to Islam is opposed to the conception of a secular state.



3) The Ulema themselves claimed that the Quaid-i-Azam's conception of a modern nation state became obsolete with the passing of the Objectives Resolution on 12th March 1949. (Munir Report p-203)



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So, The Non Muslims in the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, The Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Ulema of Pakistan admitted that The Objectives Resolution was against the vision of Muhammad Ali Jinnah.

this is inddeed a great read that shatter s the myth