Those 'defending' Pakistani culture fail to realise that culture isn't static

[Zibago]

I can't say for sure about the past and now but people in Pakistan are little bit more intrusive than the west but I think it has both pros and cons. The main con is reduced freedom / privacy and the major pro is that people have more human contact and suffer much less from anxiety and depressions related to loneliness.

The biggest con of this intrusiveness is more peer pressure and occasional bullying

 

[El Sidd]

What is Pakistani culture?

The Pakistani state endorse no particular culture but only values.

The state also makes recommendations on what it considers ideal morality based on its populace. Which coincides either by design or by chance with the praise it garnered by the prophet of Islam.

All the rest this thread is rhetoric and fashion wars.

 

[war&peace]

and you only saw the Kalash pic? I said it before and I'll say it again, google the pics yourself, the Burqa itself was worn by a tiny minority. Now after Arabization it has spread.

Yes because the pics I posted, the girls were wearing mini skirts?
apparently some people take the shalwaz kameez = mini skirt
the Shalwar Kameez is our National Dress and no amount of Arab propaganda can change our dress, or culture.
Pakistanis trying to be Arabs, more than arabs themselves

How ironic, it is you who claimed that Arabisation is taking place.. lolzzz.

The biggest con of this intrusiveness is more peer pressure and occasional bullying

Hmm not sure but bullying in the schools is still a problem in the west including the great Scandinavia. However in Pakistan it can be worse but it is still pretty strong in USA...surely far worse than in Pakistan and it manifests in students shooting and killing their own classmates and teachers. So let's not deride everything in Pakistan and think that everything is better in the west. That's a problem with certain Pakistanis that they construct mental image of the west from the Hollywood movies or glamourised (often false) stories narrated by their boasting relatives in the USA and Europe.

 

[war&peace]

Not agreed, very first time I am disappointed from you since you resort to cash brownie points hence I am not further debating you.

Bye.
What waste of knowledge and I hope you recover soon.

Mate, remember I told you something?

 

[Jf Thunder]

How ironic, it is you who claimed that Arabisation is taking place.. lolzzz.

yes, whats ironic in that?

Condition of women now is better than it has ever been in history of Pakistan its just that bad news surface more often now

by increase in the number of niqabis and molvis due to the radicalization of society?

 

[war&peace]

yes, whats ironic in that?


by increase in the number of niqabis and molvis due to the radicalization of society?

I think the number of niqab wearing women has reduced since 90's and it has not improved anything in the society nor it ever will.

 

[Jf Thunder]

I think the number of niqab wearing women has reduced since 90's and it has not improved anything in the society nor it ever will.

the niqab wearers and molvis has increased
and the only thing it helped in doing was allowing terrorists to carry weapons, and hide in niqabs to run away
take the example of lal masjid maybe?
it only causes damage, it does not help anyone in any way

 

[LeGenD]

no, before Zia Ul Haq, and before the Afghan war
there were very few women who wore the burka
it is not part of our culture, never was and never will be

On what grounds are you assuming that scores of women do not do purdah by choice? Burkha may sound extreme but many women consider wearing hijab by choice.

In-fact, I am noticing many women doing purdah even in a city like Lahore in current times. I get the impression that scores of people are concentrating on Islamic teachings on their own.

 

[Jf Thunder]

On what grounds are you assuming that scores of women do not do purdah by choice? Burkha may sound extreme but many women consider wearing hijab by choice.

In-fact, I am noticing many women doing purdah even in a city like Lahore in current times. I get the impression that scores of people are concentrating on Islamic teachings on their own.

the first thing is that I dont want to get into a religious argument because its not allowed, so let us not say weather it is Islamic or Un Islamic.
Second you did not get my choice, if something is harmful but you want to do it by choice, you cannot and must not do it.

 

[war&peace]

On what grounds are you assuming that scores of women do not do purdah by choice? Burkha may sound extreme but many women consider wearing hijab by choice.

In-fact, I am noticing many women doing purdah even in a city like Lahore in current times. I get the impression that scores of people are concentrating on Islamic teachings on their own.

Some of the women also wear burqa because a lot of perverted boys stare at them. Also in certain areas the community is really conservative so when women visit such places or live in such places, they wear burqah so that they don't stand out and receive negative criticism from the community similar to the situation in west where a lot of people do things because of societal reasons. But vast majority of them do voluntarily because of their faith.

the niqab wearers and molvis has increased
and the only thing it helped in doing was allowing terrorists to carry weapons, and hide in niqabs to run away
take the example of lal masjid maybe?
it only causes damage, it does not help anyone in any way

What is your source of knowledge? Any census tells about it, any nation wide survey?
Mate you're mixing the things. One is the statistics / numbers and the other is your personal liking and disliking of the burqah.

My contention is that the number of fashion outlets in the country has increased so is the number of private channels and those do not promote burqah so I think it has slightly reduced in numbers.

I'm personally against the face veil (not hijab or head scarf) especially under current situation and I know it is not mandatory in the religion at all. It has been more of a tradition in subcontinent. However, it can't change over night rather it will take some time. Proper religious education of the masses can help and for that to happen men should be taught to follow the Islamic teachings of respecting women and do not stare at them unnecessarily.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Some of the women also wear burqa because a lot of perverted boys stare at them. Also in certain areas the community is really conservative so when women visit such places or live in such places, they wear burqah so that they don't stand out and receive negative criticism from the community similar to the situation in west where a lot of people do things because of societal reasons. But vast majority of them do voluntarily because of their faith.



What is your source of knowledge? Any census tells about it, any nation wide survey?
Mate you're mixing the things. One is the statistics / numbers and the other is your personal liking and disliking of the burqah.

My contention is that the number of fashion outlets in the country has increased so is the number of private channels and those do not promote burqah so I think it has slightly reduced in numbers.

I'm personally against the face veil (not hijab or head scarf) especially under current situation and I know it is not mandatory in the religion at all. It has been more of a tradition in subcontinent. However, it can't change over night rather it will take some time. Proper religious education of the masses can help and for that to happen men should be taught to follow the Islamic teachings of respecting women and do not stare at them unnecessarily.

agree with this portion, we do not need imported clothing items for following Islam, our very own Shalwar Kameez is already modest for men, and shalwar kameez and dupatta for women, we do not need hijab, niqab or burqa for modesty in Pakistan.
my knowledge is not based on any source, I am simply stating my observation in and around my area where I live and where I go

 

[till death do us party]

Only values matter but so called liberals confuse values with customs which is totally wrong thing, example this is our value that girl marry with consent of their parents but liberals call it old fashioned culture needed to changed and because of that many young girls marry to a wrong man and live a life like hell, Parents always knows better than the teenage girls wearing worn off jeens.

Only values matter but so called liberals confuse values with customs which is totally wrong thing, example this is our value that girl marry with consent of their parents but liberals call it old fashioned culture needed to changed and because of that many young girls marry to a wrong man and live a life like hell, Parents always knows better than the teenage girls wearing worn off jeens.

this post is a prime example of how prejudiced and judgmental we have become as a nation. firstly blanket assumptions cannot and should never be made against any ideology which in my humble opinion is absurdity of highest order. secondly do you even realize how many arrange marriages crumble because parents get too stubborn to listen to their children's wishes? but no, lets not think along those lines. lets keep cursing liberalism and jeans for everything that is wrong with the society.

 

[Zarvan]

Whose culture is it anyway?
Published in Nov-Dec 2009
By Zohra Yusuf
Those deeming it their duty to defend and protect Pakistani culture fail to realise that culture cannot be static.

Illustration by Creative Unit.


When sometime in the early 90s, Ustad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan teamed up with Peter Gabriel to create the kind of music never heard before, qawali aficionados accused him of selling out and distorting a traditional form of devotional music. More recently, the proliferation of private television channels and access to foreign programmes on cable, both operating in a fairly free and unregulated media environment, has intensified once again the debate about ‘Pakistani culture’. Fears are frequently expressed about the corruption of our historic and authentic culture. Some, in fact, mourn the death of culture at the hands of invaders from across the border, or even beyond – from the western world. Conspiracy theorists, of course, see the influence as a premeditated attack on the pristine Pakistani culture.

Those deeming it their duty to defend and protect Pakistani culture fail to realise that culture cannot be static, trapped in some romantic notion of a glorious past. The ‘purists’ whose intentions and concerns may be noble are, nevertheless, fighting a losing battle. From art to music, from architecture to literature, the world is witnessing a fusion of cultures. And while some music bands may experiment with the idea of ‘fusion’, the process is not always deliberate. In most cases, it is a fait accompli of history. The influences and intermingling of cultures is just getting swifter as the world is getting smaller.

There are also frequent complaints of the lack of an official cultural policy. While some governments in the past did make attempts to lay down certain principles of policy, the futility of this exercise in an era of culture without borders is pretty clear. This does not, however, absolve the government of supporting cultural activities and, above all, ensuring an environment that promotes creativity.

It also has the responsibility of promoting the forms of art considered ‘classic’ that may not find support in a fast-paced world. However, people strive for individual creative freedom and the idea of being put into some form of a cultural straitjacket is surely not appealing. Official definitions of culture have the inherent danger of pandering to chauvinistic tendencies.

Pakistan is a relatively young country on the map of the world, although its cultural history dates back to over 5,000 years ago, to the Indus Valley civilisation.

The region absorbed the thoughts and cultures of many travellers in transit – whether they were the invading Greeks and Mughals or the peaceful Buddhist rulers and monks.

To expect the country to have anything that may be termed ‘Pakistani’ culture is non-sequitur. Moreover, the fact that the country is enriched with a mind boggling array of subcultures that differ – and mingle – from region to region is not appreciated by those who would like to see a monolithic form of Pakistani culture.

Our culture today is hybrid and enriched by cross pollination.

The experiments in creativity that we see around us in this country today should make us proud. Whether it is painting, music or literature, the young who have soaked in experiences of various cultures are boldly experimenting with both form and substance.

In each of these areas, they are successfully redefining Pakistani culture and earning for the country a place on the world stage. They have demonstrated that culture is something vibrant, full of vitality and in a state of perpetual evolution.

Although today the world is more aware of the mistakes of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, Mao did make one inspiring statement when he exhorted the Chinese nation to “let a thousand flowers bloom”.

Zohra Yusuf is Creative Director, Spectrum Y&R.

And liberal fundos need to get one thing straight Islam always was and always will be their and culture was and will be under Islam so those fundos who think by breaking law of Islam they can get respect or acceptance in society no they won't get it never has and never will

 

[PAKjunoon]

no, before Zia Ul Haq, and before the Afghan war
there were very few women who wore the burka
it is not part of our culture, never was and never will be

As far as I know Zia-ul-Haq never enforced any dress code on the females.


Burqa is not a result of Zia-ul-Haq Islamization or Arabization. It's the result of education.

Before many people were illiterate.They did not had any religious or non-religious education.
So they did not what Islam permitted or not permitted.They just followed the customs of the area.With time people got more educated and they started trying to follow Islam in everyday life.

My Grand Mother's generation had almost no formal schooling.They don't know anything about Islam.Most of them don't know how to pray Namaz or read Quran. They can't even read a single verse of Quran. Some even don't know the proper way to say the Kalimah!
The Kalimah that make us muslims.

My grand mother's generation is more concerned about local tradition,then about Islam.They never wore a burka,but they did wear a chador for purdah because of local custom.Their purdah was lax,not up to Islamic standards.

My mother's generations got formal schooling up to primary level and some Islamic Dars also.So they follow more Islamic principles in their lives then the previous generation.The do proper purdah,but they prefer the chador for it.

Now comes my generation.The females are more educated then the previous generations.Both religious and non-religious education.And almost all of them wear burqa and do Nikab. And my generation's female are more disciplined in following Islamic principles.

The reason of wearing burqa instead of chador is pragmatism, not arabization. Most of women cloths available in markets don't meet the Islamic standard for a femaledress.So,the women of this generation are forced to wear another piece of outer garment that covers them properly.And their choice of this garment is burqa.

Why burqa? Why not chador? Because chador is considered a garment for old and unfashionable people.Not for the young and fashionable people.And they find burqa more easy to handle then chador.

this post is a prime example of how prejudiced and judgmental we have become as a nation. firstly blanket assumptions cannot and should never be made against any ideology which in my humble opinion is absurdity of highest order.

And you are making blanket assumptions against the whole nation.

secondly do you even realize how many arrange marriages crumble because parents get too stubborn to listen to their children's wishes? but no, lets not think along those lines.

Again you are making general assumptions, that those marriages that fail are result of being arranged.Don't love marriages also fail?In fact arranged marriages have much higher rate of success then love marriages.

 

[Jf Thunder]

As far as I know Zia-ul-Haq never enforced any dress code on the females.


Burqa is not a result of Zia-ul-Haq Islamization or Arabization. It's the result of education.

Before many people were illiterate.They did not had any religious or non-religious education.
So they did not what Islam permitted or not permitted.They just followed the customs of the area.With time people got more educated and they started trying to follow Islam in everyday life.

My Grand Mother's generation had almost no formal schooling.They don't know anything about Islam.Most of them don't know how to pray Namaz or read Quran. They can't even read a single verse of Quran. Some even don't know the proper way to say the Kalimah!
The Kalimah that make us muslims.

My grand mother's generation is more concerned about local tradition,then about Islam.They never wore a burka,but they did wear a chador for purdah because of local custom.Their purdah was lax,not up to Islamic standards.

My mother's generations got formal schooling up to primary level and some Islamic Dars also.So they follow more Islamic principles in their lives then the previous generation.The do proper purdah,but they prefer the chador for it.

Now comes my generation.The females are more educated then the previous generations.Both religious and non-religious education.And almost all of them wear burqa and do Nikab. And my generation's female are more disciplined in following Islamic principles.

The reason of wearing burqa instead of chador is pragmatism, not arabization. Most of women cloths available in markets don't meet the Islamic standard for a femaledress.So,the women of this generation are forced to wear another piece of outer garment that covers them properly.And their choice of this garment is burqa.

Why burqa? Why not chador? Because chador is considered a garment for old and unfashionable people.Not for the young and fashionable people.And they find burqa more easy to handle then chador.

your argument is fundamentally flawed, Zia Ul Haq did indeed impose a dress code, you might want to go read up on that. It is also true that he gave a free hand to mullahs, and for the purpose of the Afghan war, extremist madrassahs were opened which advocated the burqa, a prime example is Afghanistan.
As for the second point the thing is that religious arguments are not allowed in this forum, so we cannot have a discussion about what Islam says about pardah, weather Islam advocates the Burqa or not.
I have said it before and I will say it again, our own cultural dresses are modest enough, the only people who advocate the Arab culture are those who want to erase our local culture.
As for the education in olden times, women in Afghanistan and Pakistan were more educated before the rise of Arabization, our own founder Mr Jinnah was a student of Sindh Madrassahtul Islam, and he never told or forced the women around to him to do purdah.