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This is not my Quaid’s Pakistan

Quaid vision for Pakistan was Islam

Jang/Geo column

Monday

6th January 2014



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SOURCE:


JANG NEWS PAPER(GEO)



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Good to know :tup:
Thank you for listening!
The younger generation is making changes and their presence felt! They will make things better.
1stly we did not really start with a clean state, we started with loads of people confused, many left large chunks of property but were not able to get anything equal to that...others had connections got land bigger than they need....we also did not start with proper infrastructure while most of Delhi was already running...Then we were cursed with greedy politicians feeding poor for vote banks (right before election and forgetting them after) ...So no we did not start with a clean state we have more corrupts then the world can produce...
True. We had our challenges as well.
The point I was making was that after 1947, we had self rule for the first time - both India and Pakistan. Anything that has happened after that is of our own making. We cannot blame anyone else.

1 minute you asked us to get shariah and now the direct opposite let me quote you:

I think Indians really are confused about Pakistan...whether we get shariah or not that is up to us....why confuse yourself?
I see...good for you...sadly even without shariah we are still nowhere...so stop using too much brain power on this dilemma...
Go to know who you support...If in the next thread I see your posts changing allies we will know who not to trust :whistle:
Pakistan was equal to India till the 90's. A perfect counterweight to India. We dont want that situation again when Pakistan could match India.
Well, I dont like Islamists. Infact I detest them as almost Indians do.
But they are useful, if they are able to get Sharia implemented in Pakistan.
 
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Pakistan was equal to India till the 90's. A perfect counterweight to India. We dont want that situation again when Pakistan could match India.
Well, I dont like Islamists. Infact I detest them as almost Indians do.
But they are useful, if they are able to get Sharia implemented in Pakistan.


They haven't been able to yet and their influence is meagre, save a few far fetched remote areas. Add to this an Islamic party has never won anything tangible in the polls shows you there is no love for what you want to see happen. Now comparing that to yourselves who cheer on the Hindu right, who have been elected and looked set to be elected again. Can't wait to see the results of that in "secular" India......
 
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They haven't been able to yet and their influence is meagre, save a few far fetched remote areas. Add to this an Islamic party has never won anything tangible in the polls shows you there is no love for what you want to see happen. Now comparing that to yourselves who cheer on the Hindu right, who have been elected and looked set to be elected again. Can't wait to see the results of that in "secular" India......
I have seen Pakistan becoming more conservative waz.
2 decades back no one could have imagined Pakistani's would become so conservative, many extremist.

And so looking at that direction, give it another decade or two and you will see the result of this creeping radicalization in Pakistan.
 
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Pakistan was equal to India till the 90's. A perfect counterweight to India. We dont want that situation again when Pakistan could match India.
Well, I dont like Islamists. Infact I detest them as almost Indians do.
But they are useful, if they are able to get Sharia implemented in Pakistan.

Depends what you mean by these Islamist...Many under the name of Islam know not even the basics of Islam if those are Islamist then they should keep away from Pakistan....If you mean those few who want to practice their faith and are not part of the mentally challenged previous group I mentioned then I disagree with you...

I have seen Pakistan becoming more conservative waz.
2 decades back no one could have imagined Pakistani's would become so conservative, many extremist.

And so looking at that direction, give it another decade or two and you will see the result of this creeping radicalization in Pakistan.
Actually the media may say whatever it wishes, it loves to blast out individual cases as if they are the only things worth reporting....Pakistan is far from Islam....very far away .....since you have never been within the borders you can only repeat what the media projects to you so cant blame you...
 
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I have seen Pakistan becoming more conservative waz.
2 decades back no one could have imagined Pakistani's would become so conservative, many extremist.

And so looking at that direction, give it another decade or two and you will see the result of this creeping radicalization in Pakistan.

To be honest Contrarian it has in a few areas but in many others it has gone the other way. Neither ends of the spectrum tell of a mass radicalisation to occur in a decade or so. I read the same things in the late 80's.....
 
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As for radicalization, that era was short lived and was mostly due to those people being trained to fight the USSR....unfortunately these elements were not un-brainwashed and kept going in a unidirection
 
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I just want to say one thing to all my non muslims and muslims friends here please , Do not judge ISLAM from its followers , but judge the muslims on the Bases of ISLAM(Quran&Hadith) . once you do so you will find a different picture of religion .
 
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For face saving Now zarvan will issue fatwa against quaid e azam as, , kafir because Quaid azam was drunk man, he used every UN Islamic things such as alcohol, beers ,vodka sand many others etc.. . Actually zarvan is a confused man ,deprived from life and loser in the world.
First he never used that secondly in an interview he was asked that alcohol is ban in Islam he said and yes it will be banned in Pakistan too

Only thing to do is that people should bring out all the speeches of Jinah before 11th August and after 11th august and publish them and those speeches of Jinah are enough to give a huge slap on the faces of these traitor liberals and secular s bunch of western pet slaves
 
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There are all sorts of people in the world, in some "civilized" western countries the whole society exhibits such naked racism that one visible community can't even enter the hotels, restaurants, buses, etc. used by the racist majority................and in some other people in my country don't want to share the utensils / crockery. And they are all deplorable.




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This is not my Quaid’s Pakistan
By Juggun Kazim
Published: January 5, 2014

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The writer is an actor, an anchor and a model. She is currently the host of “Morning with Juggun” on PTV Home and can be reached via twitter @JuggunKazim

“You are free; you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State.”

— Muhammad Ali Jinnah
A few weeks ago, while I was visiting a friend, I went into her kitchen to pick up a plate. As I reached out to pick up one lying next to the sink, her cook grabbed it from my hand. When I asked him what was wrong with the plate, he said it was used by the Christian maid. When I asked why she needed a separate plate, he said none of the staff — plus the begum sahib of the house — wanted to share plates, glasses or even cutlery with her.

Recently, I wished my viewers “Merry Christmas” on my morning show. Within minutes, there were comments on the show’s Facebook page saying that wishing Merry Christmas is blasphemous and that it makes me a non-Muslim. Apparently, I should not even say the words “Merry Christmas”. Instead, if I ‘insist’ on saying something to the Christians of Pakistan, I should only say “Happy Christmas”. That makes no sense to me. All my life, I’ve been wished ‘Eid Mubarak’ by Christians, Hindus and Jews alike.

My make-up artist and stylist, Irfan, asked me if I would help him register for his Matric. When I asked him how come he hadn’t finished his education, he told me he had dropped out. When he was in seventh grade, the school changed his last name (along with that of all the other Christian students) in the school records to Masih. From then on, the other kids in the school started to make fun of him and even hit him. The teachers also started treating him differently and some children were told by their parents that they could no longer talk to him or play with him. Finally, when he couldn’t take the abuse anymore, he just dropped out of school.

Many years ago, I worked in a television series in Canada. I still remember one line I delivered: “We South Asians are an interesting people. When we can’t find anyone else to discriminate against, we start discriminating against each other.”

Every year we remember the words of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah about how the citizens of Pakistan are free to go to their temples and their churches. And every time I see religious injustice happen in Pakistan, I repeat it to myself, feeling ashamed and enraged.

This is not my Quaid’s Pakistan. This is not the dream Allama Iqbal had. I know we are all better than this as human beings and as Pakistanis.

So far as I know, Pakistan was built to give the Muslims of India a separate homeland where they would be free to practise their religion without fear. It was not built so that the majority community could discriminate against minorities.

Why can’t we live and let live? Is it so difficult to let others live their lives with the same dignity and respect we expect for ourselves?

Why can’t we just accept that everyone is different even within one religious framework and that it’s okey to be different?

The bigger point to note here is that prejudice against Christians and Hindus is but one visible facet of our increasingly intolerant society. Once you accept that people have the right to freedom of religion, it applies to everyone — Christians, Hindus, Jews and even other Muslims. Let’s hope that we remember that in 2014.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 6th, 2014.
Like Opinion & Editorial on Facebook, follow @ETOpEd on Twitter to receive all updates on all our daily pieces.
 
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“You are free; you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State.”

— Muhammad Ali Jinnah

Sure change your religion, then you are free to go to your temples. What is the issue? Don't worry "Merry christmas", "Namastay" etc is not allowed for Muslims. Other religion are free from these bariers. Temples don't belongs to Muslims but Masjids are.

Otherwise, learn quran, and stop hiding your ignorance behind Qauid-e-Azam.
 
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Depends what you mean by these Islamist...Many under the name of Islam

know not even the basics of Islam if those are Islamist then they should keep away from Pakistan....If you mean those few who want to practice their faith and are not part of the mentally challenged previous group I mentioned then I disagree with you...

Actually the media may say whatever it wishes, it loves to blast out individual cases as if they are the only things worth reporting....Pakistan is far from Islam....very far away .....since you have never been within the borders you can only repeat what the media projects to you so cant blame you...
Doesnt matter what you wish to call them. Whether or not they practice 'true' Islam or not is irrelevant to me.
Islamists are generally accepted to be those who want to put up political Islam rather than a personal spiritual Islam.

Consequently Islamists will want a State to be governed by Islamic Laws ie the Shariah system.
That is what I want for Pakistan as well. A Shariah governed Pakistan.

In any case, as I said, to me it works great that Pakistan gets Shariah. Im all for it. It would be the logical conclusion to the demand for Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims. I also know the result of what would happen if Shariah is implemented, hence my keenness.

To be honest Contrarian it has in a few areas but in many others it has gone the other way. Neither ends of the spectrum tell of a mass radicalisation to occur in a decade or so. I read the same things in the late 80's.....
I would say you are being humble with the extent of the radicalization waz.
Ask any Pakistani of the 50's and 60's, whether they could have ever imagined that a country where each was free, would ever have Sunni's killing Shias just because its Shias. Or vice verse.

The generation of the 80's could never have imagined bombings in Mosques because the attackers thought those in the mosque were kafirs/xyz.

Where 10 year old girls would be charged with blasphemy laws and mobs would run to kill them for it.
Ask any Pakistani of the 60's and they will tell you that they never would have believed any Pakistani of that era would have done something like this.

There is a clear path of social conservatism and radicalization that is visible. The influence of Mullah's on Pakistani society has increased exponentially.

Today, you might feel that it is not that bad, but a decade or two down the line, it would be worse. Just like how Pakistani's of earlier generations never thought their society was going in a certain direction. They were oblivious to it.

Whether something happens to arrest this slide to conservatism, I donot know. But in the absence of something that stops this slide, it will continue as it has for the past few decades, only the speed may vary from time to time.
 
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Not a word about MMA under the banner of mush, not a word about enlighten moderation that had put Pakistan in a hell hole, not a word about PPP and their buddy sharifs. Seduced by $ sharifs and zardaries bhuttos and the power hungry, Two extremes can't be right include liberals not to forget mqm was creation of zia ul haq:cheers:.

Hon Sir,

You are quite correct there are many others involved in Pakistan’s slide into anarchy. This includes MQM & ANP fight for the control of Karachi.

I limited my post to condemning Zia ul Haq & JI & Afghan war primarily because that was the foundation of most of the troubles such as Kalashnikov culture, drug menace & sectarianism.

I have experienced Pakistan from her birth and grew up during the Ayub era when Pakistan had better standard of living than India and many Far East countries and was a happy place to live. I therefore blame the people responsible for her decline more than those that came after. However, it is no excuse and later governments are equally guilty by letting the rot increase without doing anything about it.

I am from a family of Syeds and have Sunnis as well as Shias among my relations. I therefore find sectarianism especially abhorrent. You are entitled to practice what you believe but must you kill Hazaras just cecause they are Shia or bomb a gathering of Sunnis Tehreek because of their maslak? TTP are the worst offenders, didn’t you read that they butchered Shia prisoners with knife during the KPK jail break. Now Sunni Ulemas are being targeted probably by the Shia terrorists in revenge. When will this tit for tat murders stop?

For someone like me, who is partial to Sufi Islam, attacks on Data Durbar, Pakpattan shrine, Bari Imam, Abdulla Shah Ghazi etc. are very painful. I singled out Jamaat Islami because the bigot Munawwar Hassan is the biggest supporter of Taliban and thus of sectarianism.

I am also against Imran Khan, who despite spent spending most his life sporting the Western Culture; heard that PTI gatherings in Karachi also had Pakistani pop music; has now allied himself with the anti-Pakistan Jamaat Islami.

I know that Imran himself is anti - sectarian but he sponsored a ‘Dharna’ in the support of the sectarian Taliban for the right wing vote? Doesn’t this make Imran khan a hypocrite of the first order?

Here is an article in Dawn highlighting the sectarian problem in Pakistan.


The sectarian knot

FROM THE NEWSPAPER

Published 2014-01-07 07:32:32

OVER the last few decades, especially since virulently sectarian groups took root during Ziaul Haq’s blighted rule, violence fuelled by sectarian motives has had a devastating impact on Pakistani society. Much blood has flowed while prejudice has begun to colour the thinking of even many ‘moderate’ Pakistanis who now view sectarian ‘others’ with suspicion. While there have been highs and lows in the level of violence, what has consistently been missing is the state’s resolve to tackle the problem, especially the proliferation of violent groups and the spread of hate literature. It seems the state is more interested in trying to control the violence rather than eliminating it. Many in the ulema’s ranks have also displayed a similar attitude, condemning sectarianism on one hand but doing little to counter it on the other.

There is still time to address the issue if all stakeholders play their part. In this context, the ‘peace convention’ of Shia and Sunni religious and political groups held in Islamabad on Sunday is a positive development. It shows that the majority want peaceful coexistence and that only a handful of troublemakers are bent on stoking unrest. Yet holding joint rallies — though a step forward — alone will not solve the problem, which has reached critical proportions. Take the figure of people killed in sectarian terrorist attacks in 2013 released on Sunday by a think tank. According to the Pakistan Institute of Peace Studies, 658 people were killed in such attacks last year countrywide, while 1,195 were injured.

To try and ensure that 2014 does not see a similar body count, several steps need to be taken by the government and ulema. First, any armed sectarian group from any school of thought found involved in acts of terrorism or targeted killings must be dismantled and its members prosecuted. The security establishment has a fair idea about the operations of such groups and those that give them protection and political cover. For example, the PIPS report says nine suicide attacks were carried out by Lashkar-i-Jhangvi last year. All those who aid and abet the terrorists must be brought to justice. Second, the state, aided by senior ulema, needs to clamp down on the misuse of loudspeakers at mosques and other worship places, specifically where the microphone is used to fan religious hatred. Nearly all religious groups — even some blatantly sectarian ones — swear they want harmony in society. The test of their resolve will only be proved when they help the state single out mischief-makers who spread hatred through mosque microphones. Ultimately, it is a question of whether the state and ulema have the will to sincerely tackle sectarian violence. Unless we see concrete proof of this, joint rallies or a code of conduct, such as that of Tahir Ashrafi, to maintain sectarian harmony, will have little impact in resolving the problem

The sectarian knot - DAWN.COM
 
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Doesnt matter what you wish to call them. Whether or not they practice 'true' Islam or not is irrelevant to me.
Sorry to say that is slightly absurd...its like saying whether or not the thing is genuine its not relevant to me...So you support piracy? :pop:

Islamists are generally accepted to be those who want to put up political Islam rather than a personal spiritual Islam.
How about if I say whether or not they are supported by such people is irrelevant to me...How does that sound? Yup thats how you sounded to me awhile ago...

Look, why I gave the definition is because I am not sure who or what are Islamists...If I talk about how good is Islam some people start calling me Islamist and mate I have no contacts with the political world! :blink:

Consequently Islamists will want a State to be governed by Islamic Laws ie the Shariah system.
That is what I want for Pakistan as well. A Shariah governed Pakistan.
So you are an Islamist? :undecided:
In any case, as I said, to me it works great that Pakistan gets Shariah. Im all for it. It would be the logical conclusion to the demand for Pakistan as a homeland for Muslims. I also know the result of what would happen if Shariah is implemented, hence my keenness.
ok...so have you read this Shariah thing you soo support? or are we just having empty talk? Or is it your blind hatred making you side anything even that which you not of? :unsure:

I would say you are being humble with the extent of the radicalization waz.
Lets see...lets put Pakistan as simple as its name...and If I keep showing you P and the only thing I show you about the name is the letter "P" does that represent whole of Pakistan?
Ask any Pakistani of the 50's and 60's, whether they could have ever imagined that a country where each was free, would ever have Sunni's killing Shias just because its Shias. Or vice verse.
You are talking as though you have been here...Do you know how many high ranking Shia officers we have...havent seen them do anything to stop this radicalization...we have more high ranking Shia then Sunni....and yet Shia are the victims?? I have nothing against either group hell I dont even consider myself as anything but a Muslim...
The generation of the 80's could never have imagined bombings in Mosques because the attackers thought those in the mosque were kafirs/xyz.
Hence the question...how is that related to Islam how can a person who bombs their own place of worship, bombs schools and kills children be a Muslim? Yet the world sees not and still calls them Muslim....So if tomorrow someone hijacks a plane with a big cross in his neck (for all we know he could be doing every sin on the planet) does the world go to war on Christianity? Nope...

Where 10 year old girls would be charged with blasphemy laws and mobs would run to kill them for it.
Ask any Pakistani of the 60's and they will tell you that they never would have believed any Pakistani of that era would have done something like this.
Where did that happen, which area? It did not happen in center but on outskirts...Every city has its problem...with soo many uneducated people we have that many times more problem then in a developed world or a place where there are more educated people....Tell me where does it say about blasphemy or creating of blasphemy laws? Tell me where in the Quran does it state this law to kill a 10 yr old girl?

The answer is in the heads of the Mullah is the only place on the planet where you would find such a law...not in the Quran def not in Shariah...

There is a clear path of social conservatism and radicalization that is visible. The influence of Mullah's on Pakistani society has increased exponentially.
Thats what the media shows when in reality more people hate the Mullahs now then ever! So...am not sure why you are talking like the tv reporter...

Today, you might feel that it is not that bad, but a decade or two down the line, it would be worse. Just like how Pakistani's of earlier generations never thought their society was going in a certain direction. They were oblivious to it.

Whether something happens to arrest this slide to conservatism, I donot know. But in the absence of something that stops this slide, it will continue as it has for the past few decades, only the speed may vary from time to time.
Something? 1 minute you are talking about all in favour of Shariah next side you give us a glimpse of what Hindu Times reports about Pakistan to you....
 
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Will this debate ever end??
Pakistan belongs to pakistanis and not Mr. Jinnah.
If they want sharia to be imposed then in all fairness to them let it be.
Cant u guys hold a referendum of this issue?
 
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