There's No Way The F-35 Will Ever Match The Eurofighter In Aerial Combat

[Mosamania]

In order to lower the limit, there has to be a previous higher limit, no? So what if the Typhoon's g-limit is the same as the -35's with both similarly configured? Or let us be generous and give the Typhoon a 20% advantage. With the much higher RCS, the Typhoon will lose before he even knows it. Heck, if we can make the B-52 equally 'stealthy' as the B-2, what a 'force multiplier' we will have.

The Typhoon's G-limit is higher than the F-35s. And please read my previous posts, I clearly said in WVR not BVR. But even in BVR the typhoon is not just a legacy clean up aircraft. Even though I admit the F-35 will "See" the Typhoon before the Typhoon sees it, Typhoon has got quite a number of tricks up its sleeve it can use to make sure it can close in for the kill. And once close, bye bye American pie for the F-35.

Yes, I do. I know what my clean -16 look like on a scope. Your Typhoon is even worse.

Care to expand on that.

 

[ANPP]

Yes, I do. I know what my clean -16 look like on a scope. Your Typhoon is even worse.

I also read that F 35 maneuverability is comparable to F105. If it true than surely F35 dont have any chance in front of typhoon & other latest plane.

 

[gambit]

The Typhoon's G-limit is higher than the F-35s. And please read my previous posts, I clearly said in WVR not BVR. But even in BVR the typhoon is not just a legacy clean up aircraft. Even though I admit the F-35 will "See" the Typhoon before the Typhoon sees it, Typhoon has got quite a number of tricks up its sleeve it can use to make sure it can close in for the kill. And once close, bye bye American pie for the F-35.

There is no assurance here, other than the assurance that the Typhoon will be shot at first, and in order to use those tricks, it will have to be aware of threats in the first place, of which the -35 will not make that awareness probable.

 

[gambit]

Care to expand on that.

Sure...I have seen an air-air configured F-16C, with no external fuel, disappeared into ground/water clutter at below 1000 ft altitude. The Typhoon's large delta wings are no positive features in this respect.

 

[Mosamania]

There is no assurance here, other than the assurance that the Typhoon will be shot at first, and in order to use those tricks, it will have to be aware of threats in the first place, of which the -35 will not make that awareness probable.

The Typhoon still has a very small RCS, the lowest of all 4++ fighters (I know how much you hate these terms and so do I but for the sake of grouping), The Typhoon and the -35 will already be very close to one another before they see each other, -35 first true, but this increase the chances of WVR confrontation dramatically between the two.

And about the Radar Evadingness of the -35 it won't do it much good when the IRST locks on it huge heat sources.

Sure...I have seen an air-air configured F-16C, with no external fuel, disappeared into ground/water clutter at below 1000 ft altitude. The Typhoon's large delta wings are no positive features in this respect.

Are you saying that the Typhoon can not clutter itself by flying low due to the Deltas?

 

[SQ8]

Yes, I do. I know what my clean -16 look like on a scope. Your Typhoon is even worse.

At the end of the day.. and going by your own observations.. you may make a "clean" aircraft really stealthy.. but with all the bits and boobs hanging off it.. the RCS will ALWAYS be higher than something that keeps everything inside like the F-35.

The question remains however, with all the frontiers it is pushing.. will the F-35(the B & C variant) even make it to its customers in full force? considering sequestration along with members nations considering pulling out due to costs. Will the A variant be the only one that actually ends up flying?

 

[500]

Not IRST, IRIS-T dude, there is a difference, it is okay if you get confused, they sound the same.

Point that F-35 does not have system equal to DAS.

The Typhoon is in fact more agile than the F-35 and here is what we have been saying all along, yes and "IRST". So as I stated earlier, it is agile, but not enough.

Stealth and NEO are MUCH more important than some agility advantage.

 

[Mosamania]

Point that F-35 does not have system equal to DAS.

Stealth and NEO are MUCH more important than some agility advantage.

While DAS is a very potent system in theory, getting it in application is proving to be extremelly difficult (at least as of now). Difficult to the point that F-35 is going to rely on BAE in the short term, who are equipping them with the same Typhoon specs as of now. Wither the DAS that is being highly publicized makes it to the F-35 with its full features is still a mystery, and I recall reading somewhere that there is consideration of scrapping it all together.

 

[gambit]

The Typhoon still has a very small RCS, the lowest of all 4++ fighters (I know how much you hate these terms and so do I but for the sake of grouping), The Typhoon and the -35 will already be very close to one another before they see each other, -35 first true, but this increase the chances of WVR confrontation dramatically between the two.

THAT is pure wishful thinking.

And about the Radar Evadingness of the -35 it won't do it much good when the IRST locks on it huge heat sources.

The best view for that is from behind. Good luck to the Typhoon in getting to that position.

Are you saying that the Typhoon can not clutter itself by flying low due to the Deltas?

Large expanse of surface area are not helpful to 'stealth'.

 

[Mosamania]

THAT is pure wishful thinking.


The best view for that is from behind. Good luck to the Typhoon in getting to that position.


Large expanse of surface area are not helpful to 'stealth'.

Okay say the F-35 is flying at 1.5 Mach while the Typhoon is flying at 1.9 Mach towards one another, how long will it be before they become at each other's bleeps and WVR? What is the time laps between the two?

And you are right the "best" view is from behind, but as we have been stating here for a whole now, the Typhoon will be more than capable of getting there, not to mention it only needs about 120 degrees from the Engine before it begin it's lock on sequence.

And I see where you are coming from, but still the Typhoon JHMC can lock on the F-35 and fire its missile almost as quickly as the -35 can.

 

[Esc8781]

@gambit Is this an advantage? The F-35 loaded with internal weapons, but the Typhoon carries it weapons externally. Will that affect the Typhoon's 'mission' effectiveness.

 

[gambit]

At the end of the day.. and going by your own observations.. you may make a "clean" aircraft really stealthy.. but with all the bits and boobs hanging off it.. the RCS will ALWAYS be higher than something that keeps everything inside like the F-35.

The question remains however, with all the frontiers it is pushing.. will the F-35(the B & C variant) even make it to its customers in full force? considering sequestration along with members nations considering pulling out due to costs. Will the A variant be the only one that actually ends up flying?

In many ways, the F-35 as a project is just as ambitious as the first aircraft carrier, not just in the physical ship but in the concept itself. Is it possible that we may have overreached? Yes, and I have no problems saying that. But also in many ways, we cannot afford the old days any more. The US Navy proved that necessity with the F-18SH being the mainstay of naval aviation. As great as the F-15 and F-16 are, it is getting tough to maintain both in terms of maintenance, logistics, and age, of which all cost US dearly.

Personally, I really want this project to work and believe it or not -- PURELY out of logistics alone. Having a decade in the USAF I have a good idea how much money is involved in daily operations at the flightline level. It boggled my mind when I thought about what the wing commander had in his mind, one quarter after another, on how much money he has to justify to higher headquarter in order to meet his duties.

 

[Mosamania]

@gambit Is this an advantage? The F-35 loaded with internal weapons, but the Typhoon carries it weapons externally. Will that affect the Typhoon's 'mission' effectiveness.

Carrying the weapons internally means it will be "Clean". There is a reason why carrying weapons externally is not considered to be "Clean". Internally means lower RCS, better maneuverability, better cruising and eventually better specific operation effectiveness.

Of course we can go on and on and on by how much the F-35 can carry internally and wither it is enough or not but we won't here.

 

[Mosamania]

In many ways, the F-35 as a project is just as ambitious as the first aircraft carrier, not just in the physical ship but in the concept itself. Is it possible that we may have overreached? Yes, and I have no problems saying that. But also in many ways, we cannot afford the old days any more. The US Navy proved that necessity with the F-18SH being the mainstay of naval aviation. As great as the F-15 and F-16 are, it is getting tough to maintain both in terms of maintenance, logistics, and age, of which all cost US dearly.

Personally, I really want this project to work and believe it or not -- PURELY out of logistics alone. Having a decade in the USAF I have a good idea how much money is involved in daily operations at the flightline level. It boggled my mind when I thought about what the wing commander had in his mind, one quarter after another, on how much money he has to justify to higher headquarter in order to meet his duties.

It WILL work, I am sure of it. It is too big to fail. Just as you I want the F-35 to work with all my heart. However I do have some reservations regarding its capabilities, and I believe it has been over-hyped to the point of redicilousness, but I believe they HAD to do that in order to get the support they desperately need.

Smaller nations do not meet the criteria of which the F-35 is set out to do. As you said yourself, regarding price and logistics etc, it will work out for the US but it will be a heavy burden on them and they realize that. They won't be able to get the most of it as the US will that is for sure.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

IRIS-T as well as Russian OLS-35 were mainly made as a countermeasure to detect 5th gen US stealth fighters as radars are not anymore efficient as they used to be with such very low RCS detected at short ranges. Thus, this system is much important for EU than F-35 as it's already a stealth plane countering 4++ fighter jets. DAS is mainly used on F-35 for the other roles as it's AESA radar can detect 4++ gen plane from safe ranges, so the comparison between DAS and IRIS-T is not important as they are used for different roles.

I noticed that members here tend to ignore other EU advantages over the F-35 such as weapon load, speed, range and maneuverability. No doubt that F-35 has considerable agility but this will be on the expense of it's stealthiness.