AgNoStiC MuSliM
ADVISORS
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2007
- Messages
- 25,259
- Reaction score
- 87
- Country
- Location
Logic Note,
You can call it "dislike", just as I can call Pakistanis who express views that you consider "hate" as expressing "dislike", however the content of their posts, and the general trend of their opinions is not different at all from what you would call "hate" from some Pakistanis, therefore I would argue that you really have no conclusive way of concluding one way or the other in the cases of either Indians or Pakistanis. I would go so far as to say that I have heard far more "hateful" statements about Pakistanis and Pakistan and support for breaking it up from Indians, than I have heard from Pakistanis about India, even on the infamous PDF - but of course, that is relative.
As far as your statement regarding Pakistani support for the Kashmiri freedom movement is concerned, Pakistanis have their own issues with India with respect to Baluchistan and East Pakistan. Like I mentioned to Stealth in another thread, both sides are guilty of interventionist policies, and neither has the upper moral hand - so it is incorrect to argue that Indians have reasons to "dislike" Pakistan while Pakistanis do not. There is negative sentiment both ways, and with just cause.
I disagree completely with how you lump in secularism with "democracy" and "respect for individual rights". Secularism is not the only means to achieve Democracy and respect for individual rights. Respect for others can be found lacking in both atheists and those who are religious. Pakistan's evolution is occurring within the context of its culture, religion and society - and as long as respect for the rights of all individuals is the goal that is being aimed for, I see no issues with a lack of secularism. India, despite avowing secularism, and possessing a secular curriculum, has an equal, if not greater, percentage of human rights issues, prejudice and discrimination. Are improvements being made? Of course, just as there are improvements being made in Pakistan. So when the evolution - secular in India's case, religion based in Pakistan's - throws up similar results in "respect for individuals and their rights" I fail to see how you can conclude that the Pakistani model is flawed, when the process hasn't finished, and has been subject to so many influences due from the peculiar circumstances surrounding Pakistan since 1947. Our struggle to understand self is different, it is different for every society - it is the answers that are come across during that struggle that are important - and like I have argued above, I do not agree that "our way" will reject, or is rejecting, "democracy and respect for individual rights".
I think you are misunderstanding the situation in Pakistan if you think that only Pakistanis are responsible for the extremism that is present. The first correction would be this generation of Taliban - there is no "generation" here, they remain a minority and concentrated in "organizations", and their emergence has been the result of events the world over. Their existence says nothing about previous Pakistani "generations".
The same with dictators - their existence is the result of the lack of institutional development, bar the military, which was influenced by events and circumstances both within Pakistan and external to Pakistan - so again, hard to pin the entire blame for "Democracy's failure" on Pakistani society (or how it has evolved) - it is nonetheless only one facet of Pakistan's evolution. Within the context of democracy, there is a tremendous desire to see democracy implemented within a majority of Pakistanis, which would indicate that the evolution of Pakistanis, by means you disagree with, has not taken anything away from appreciating this "fundamental idea" you mention. We haven't been able to come up with a system that would offer continuity to this vision, but that doesn't mean Pakistanis don't desire it.
With respect to your reference to "right wing parties in India" - I am not sure what Pakistan has to do with that - our political landscape and circumstances are going to be different from yours - we will follow a different path to wherever we end up.
Pakistan has changed just as India has changed - you are mistaken when you think that previous generations of Pakistanis did not fight for democracy, or believe in it. Pakistanis have always believed in those values. Our history textbooks, much maligned, do not teach us to "hate" - I, and many others on this forum, are a product of those books. It is regretful that we have trivialized our pre-Islamic history, but that alone does not teach to hate.
Indians are fond of throwing in the "Madrassa education" jibe, but until recently a very small number of students actually received an education from them, and non-religious schools remain a far larger source of education for most Pakistanis. The problem has not been the type of education, but the lack of it. We were looking at thirty percent literacy rates a few years ago, and even now a smaller number of the "fifty percent literate" Pakistanis today have a "quality education". I think too many people read about the Saudi and Palestinian text books, and then impose that impression on Pakistan, and it is completely wrong. We are not systematically taught that the "Hindu is evil", though obviously, like any nation, the version of history we read about vis a vis India is supportive of our "version of the events".
The "Blind Faith" issue is an interesting one - Samudra, Stealth and I had a pretty good back and forth over whether it is religion that is inherently evil or people, who can take any ideology (Stalin, Mao, Hitler), corrupt it, and turn it into a source for evil and power. I'll see if I can find the thread.
You can call it "dislike", just as I can call Pakistanis who express views that you consider "hate" as expressing "dislike", however the content of their posts, and the general trend of their opinions is not different at all from what you would call "hate" from some Pakistanis, therefore I would argue that you really have no conclusive way of concluding one way or the other in the cases of either Indians or Pakistanis. I would go so far as to say that I have heard far more "hateful" statements about Pakistanis and Pakistan and support for breaking it up from Indians, than I have heard from Pakistanis about India, even on the infamous PDF - but of course, that is relative.
As far as your statement regarding Pakistani support for the Kashmiri freedom movement is concerned, Pakistanis have their own issues with India with respect to Baluchistan and East Pakistan. Like I mentioned to Stealth in another thread, both sides are guilty of interventionist policies, and neither has the upper moral hand - so it is incorrect to argue that Indians have reasons to "dislike" Pakistan while Pakistanis do not. There is negative sentiment both ways, and with just cause.
I disagree completely with how you lump in secularism with "democracy" and "respect for individual rights". Secularism is not the only means to achieve Democracy and respect for individual rights. Respect for others can be found lacking in both atheists and those who are religious. Pakistan's evolution is occurring within the context of its culture, religion and society - and as long as respect for the rights of all individuals is the goal that is being aimed for, I see no issues with a lack of secularism. India, despite avowing secularism, and possessing a secular curriculum, has an equal, if not greater, percentage of human rights issues, prejudice and discrimination. Are improvements being made? Of course, just as there are improvements being made in Pakistan. So when the evolution - secular in India's case, religion based in Pakistan's - throws up similar results in "respect for individuals and their rights" I fail to see how you can conclude that the Pakistani model is flawed, when the process hasn't finished, and has been subject to so many influences due from the peculiar circumstances surrounding Pakistan since 1947. Our struggle to understand self is different, it is different for every society - it is the answers that are come across during that struggle that are important - and like I have argued above, I do not agree that "our way" will reject, or is rejecting, "democracy and respect for individual rights".
I think you are misunderstanding the situation in Pakistan if you think that only Pakistanis are responsible for the extremism that is present. The first correction would be this generation of Taliban - there is no "generation" here, they remain a minority and concentrated in "organizations", and their emergence has been the result of events the world over. Their existence says nothing about previous Pakistani "generations".
The same with dictators - their existence is the result of the lack of institutional development, bar the military, which was influenced by events and circumstances both within Pakistan and external to Pakistan - so again, hard to pin the entire blame for "Democracy's failure" on Pakistani society (or how it has evolved) - it is nonetheless only one facet of Pakistan's evolution. Within the context of democracy, there is a tremendous desire to see democracy implemented within a majority of Pakistanis, which would indicate that the evolution of Pakistanis, by means you disagree with, has not taken anything away from appreciating this "fundamental idea" you mention. We haven't been able to come up with a system that would offer continuity to this vision, but that doesn't mean Pakistanis don't desire it.
With respect to your reference to "right wing parties in India" - I am not sure what Pakistan has to do with that - our political landscape and circumstances are going to be different from yours - we will follow a different path to wherever we end up.
Pakistan has changed just as India has changed - you are mistaken when you think that previous generations of Pakistanis did not fight for democracy, or believe in it. Pakistanis have always believed in those values. Our history textbooks, much maligned, do not teach us to "hate" - I, and many others on this forum, are a product of those books. It is regretful that we have trivialized our pre-Islamic history, but that alone does not teach to hate.
Indians are fond of throwing in the "Madrassa education" jibe, but until recently a very small number of students actually received an education from them, and non-religious schools remain a far larger source of education for most Pakistanis. The problem has not been the type of education, but the lack of it. We were looking at thirty percent literacy rates a few years ago, and even now a smaller number of the "fifty percent literate" Pakistanis today have a "quality education". I think too many people read about the Saudi and Palestinian text books, and then impose that impression on Pakistan, and it is completely wrong. We are not systematically taught that the "Hindu is evil", though obviously, like any nation, the version of history we read about vis a vis India is supportive of our "version of the events".
The "Blind Faith" issue is an interesting one - Samudra, Stealth and I had a pretty good back and forth over whether it is religion that is inherently evil or people, who can take any ideology (Stalin, Mao, Hitler), corrupt it, and turn it into a source for evil and power. I'll see if I can find the thread.