The world's longest high-speed rail networks

[beijingwalker]

lol You really think that just because you find it more comfortable. Airfare is becoming cheaper with every passing year. Developed countries are ditching railways and adopting airways. What makes you think China will be different ?

Many so called developed countries are working on their own HSR, and China is the world most developed country in terms of infrastruture, China also boasts the world best and longest highways, subways and airports, airfare in China is also super cheap, many times cheaper than train tickets.

 

[Dark1]

Then why China hasn't made an profit on HSR even nearly 15+ years except on one route which started turning profit recently?

HSR are good for short routes for destination less than 500Km. Air is better on longer route. A reason I am against long distance HSR planning in India.

The Beijing Shanghai route has operational profit only. Means it covers its operational costs.
No chance of ever recovering the project cost.
China has invested a half trillion dollars in its hsr.
They must have a plan because if 95% of the route requires operational subsidizing, not many governments would hazard it.
With EVs becoming popular all over, the American love affair with the car is going nowhere.

 

[beijingwalker]

The Beijing Shanghai route has operational profit only. Means it covers its operational costs.
No chance of ever recovering the project cost.
China has invested a half trillion dollars in its hsr.
They must have a plan because if 95% of the route requires operational subsidizing, not many governments would hazard it.
With EVs becoming popular all over, the American love affair with the car is going nowhere.

Money is never a problem for China, and in China we believe it's the government duty to subsidize public facilities, public buses, subways, trains, schools, hospitals... otherwise what do we Chinese citizens pay our taxes for?

 

[Dark1]

Money is never a problem for China, and in China we believe it's the government duty to subsidize public facilities, public buses, subways, trains, schools, hospitals... otherwise what do we Chinese citizens pay our taxes for?

Public transportation is subsidized all the world , but its nominal , in millions.
Chinese are subsidizing in billions. Thats why i said the Chinese must have a financial plan , as options to run intercity transport are easily available in the private sector, without recurring cost to the taxpayer.
In India also the rail tickets for the poorer people are heavily subsidized by the goods transport.
Chinese have taken it to the next level.

 

[beijingwalker]

Public transportation is subsidized all the world , but its nominal , in millions.
Chinese are subsidizing in billions. Thats why i said the Chinese must have a financial plan , as options to run intercity transport are easily available in the private sector, without recurring cost to the taxpayer.
In India also the rail tickets for the poorer people are heavily subsidized by the goods transport.
Chinese have taken it to the next level.

As I mentioned, it may seem to be a big ticket in your country but not in China, money is not a problem here and the government should subsidize it.
Beside, mass production can always bring down the cost, HSR has been around in China for only about a decade, so the intial cost can be pretty expensive but with mass production, the cost in manufacturing and operating can go down dramatically in the next decade, now we have already seen this happening.
Don't forget a new catch phrase, whatever you can make, China can make it cheaper.

 

[Dark1]

As I mentioned, it may seem to be a big ticket in your country but not in China, money is not a problem here and the government should subsidize it.
Beside, mass production can always bring down the cost, HSR has been around in China for only about a decade, so the intial cost can be pretty expensive but with mass production, the cost in manufacturing and operating can go down dramatically in the next decade, now we have already seen this happening.
Don't forget a new catch phrase, whatever you can make, China can make it cheaper.

The infrastructure required is always in the 10s of billions. And the connectivity of a single route is between a 3 to 4 cities maximum. While land under construction is very disruptive between modern cities.
While a air connection is totally flexible, and the most modern airport in China costs a maximum of 5 b usd.
Tomorrow if passenger planes with electrical propulsion become feasible, it will be the death knell for the railways . Maybe used solely for goods.
The hsr was introduced in the 60s in Japan and 70s in Europe. The technology is more than 50 years old , only the finances curtailed its massive expansion.
And wages are rising rapidly in China, so the cost advantage, without subsidies, will not remain for long.
Technically the electricity consumption rises exponentially with speed. So unless electricity generation cost reduces drastically, hsr is costly to run.

 

[beijingwalker]

The infrastructure required is always in the 10s of billions. And the connectivity of a single route is between a 3 to 4 cities maximum. While land under construction is very disruptive between modern cities.
While a air connection is totally flexible, and the most modern airport in China costs a maximum of 5 b usd.
Tomorrow if passenger planes with electrical propulsion become feasible, it will be the death knell for the railways . Maybe used solely for goods.
The hsr was introduced in the 60s in Japan and 70s in Europe. The technology is more than 50 years old , only the finances curtailed its massive expansion.
And wages are rising rapidly in China, so the cost advantage, without subsidies, will not remain for long.
Technically the electricity consumption rises exponentially with speed. So unless electricity generation cost reduces drastically, hsr is costly to run.

HSR's technology is being improved and upgraded in China every year, as for why US doesn't have HSR, this video has a thorough analysis.

 

[Dark1]

HSR's technology is being improved and upgraded in China every year, as for why US doesn't have HSR, this video has a thorough analysis.

Nice video. Have seen it before.
Encapsulates the issues that large projects face in electoral systems.
In India every dam , bridge and metro faces ngo and political opposition.
The hsr in India was announced 2 years back but only around 50% land has been acquired till now. Work can start on ground only with 70% land acquisition as per Indian law.

With half the states under opposition governments(non central), getting consensus is very difficult.
My first hsr trip was from Shanghai to .....
And last year finally i took the shinkansen wirh a JR unlimited pass for 7 days.
A few interesting differences.

 

[beijingwalker]

What takes China one year to build takes US decades, Shanghai got their first inch of city subway in the late 1990's and now the city has already boasted the world longest subway system for a decade.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

my understanding is they want to frog leap to hyperloop or something similar.

 

[beijingwalker]

my understanding is they want to frog leap to hyperloop or something similar.

While they don't have the fund to build HSR, what makes you think they'll get the money for something even more expensive?

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

While they don't have the fund to build HSR, what makes you think they'll get the money for something even more expensive?

lol they print money out of thin air..the bigger question is if they have ownership of the project and if they have the necessary R&D.
Like the video states HSR was pushed back by aviation and oil mafia.

 

[beijingwalker]

Before US builds HSR, it should rebuild their city subway systems, New York subway is like a big toilet and trash can.

 

[The Accountant]

Its a poor investment. Rail transportation has been proven to decline year after year as countries become more developed. I am interested in seeing how many Chinese Travel by Air vs Rail after 2030.

No its not. Air travel suits for long distance and with less luggage. Plus cost of air travel will always remain significantly high so poor people will still be travelling via train.

Train will remain more efficient and cheap way of travel.

 

[samsara]

Then why China hasn't made an profit on HSR even nearly 15+ years except on one route which started turning profit recently?

HSR are good for short routes for destination less than 500Km. Air is better on longer route. A reason I am against long distance HSR planning in India.

Ever come to think over situation like these:

- China set the targeted break even period long enough, possibly within 20, 25 or even 30 years... only the decision makers know on how long exactly the BEP is set, after all the loans all come from the state's coffers. The related SOEs don't owe any other party, privates let alone foreign entities, so as long as the state supports them, no problem at all.

- They may cut short the BEP supposed they hike the ticket prices, esp. in those high in demand routes. But again one must ask what's the most important goals of building up all the railways incl. the HSRs connecting the entire country. What if the state wanna treat the costs of taking railway trips same as the major necessities of staple food prices? Meaning the state deliberately subsidize the train fares for the greater interests.

- Does any one give a thought about the potential saving from fuel importation due to the less passenger cars on the roads? Plus other costs related to the private car usages.

- An efficient mass transport by train make possible living at one place then commuting to workplace at the other location. Something about one-hour train trip will still be okay esp in the big cities whereas the living places are expensive. People can live in the more affordable nearby places within the railway coverage for this purpose. In short make possible the commuting by train. With positive effects increase the value of the nearby linked regions while reduce the pressure on those big cities.

- etc and so on, many other benefits of having the vast nation be linked thru railway extensive networks

- Finally, on air trip vs railway, that's a classic issue. Enough to say that 3 to 5 hour trip by HSR is still very okay cf. to air trip. Think of the higher conveniences inside the High Quality of HSR like those operated in China. More relaxed security, more spacious seat, stations located in the central areas vs airports at far away locations. Then factor in the weather disruptions. And of course the capacity of a railway vs aircraft. For sure the presence of HSR put a reign to the airfare, which is beneficial for consumers in a market economy. These modes of transportation will complement each other for the greater sake of economy of the nation. No need to oppose one against the other.

China has both the technologies and industry as well as the money to build all the railways incl the HSR even the future 600-km MagLev ones to connect the whole country as deemed suitable. That's a luxury for China that any other country will find very tough to follow the steps, even Japan, France, and Germany, the other key players in the world's railway transportation.

Any one, feel free to add up more points. I just wrote in rush, almost instantly, put in whatever in my head

Btw I have own experiences taking rides in HSR three times during my separate trips to China: Beijing - Shanghai HSR; Taiyuan (Shanxi) to Beijing HSR and Beijing to Guangzhou HSR. Plus the world's highest railway from Lhasa (Tibet) to Xining (Qinghai). All with the very positive feeling and leaving very good memories over long time. And these HSR rides occurred with the older trains prior to FUXING ones, so still ran at 300 kph back then. The latest Fuxing trains have operational speed of 350 kph, but I have not got the chance to board one. Also I took some train trips in Hokkaido, Japan last year, okay (indeed they are very good from the perspective of Third Worlders or most of the countries in the world), just think of those MRT or MTR taken in Singapore or Hong Kong) but they are still lesser than those new ones in China, in particular the latest Fuxing-class or its immediate predecessor class, the Hexie or Harmony run at 300 kph.

P.S. And to all who commented unfavourably about the build-up of HSR, have you guys taken a ride on any HSR? And if yes, may you please share with us what's that, where and WHY you didn't think positively about the HSR?