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The wonder that was Pakistan

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Juggernaut_is_here said:
Glorious second Pakistani Empire, Zweites Pakistanisches Reich ---->before being overrun by enemies

Click to expand...

The first Pakistani Empire was the Indus Valley Civilisation. I repeat PAKISTANI, NOT INDIAN. This reference to historical Indian as if it was a country is full of fantasy. A region is not a country.

The one above is also one of the historical Pakistani empires, I did read about them a little, but do not remember the extent of the empire :tup:
 
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peagle said:
The first Pakistani Empire was the Indus Valley Civilisation. I repeat PAKISTANI, NOT INDIAN. This reference to historical Indian as if it was a country is full of fantasy. A region is not a country.

The one above is also one of the historical Pakistani empires, I did read about them a little, but do not remember the extent of the empire :tup:
Click to expand...


The part of Indus Valley Civ. that is in Pakistan was made by Ancient Pakistanis but Kalibangan,Lothal,Rakhigarhi etc were made by Ancient Indians ...

I know that's why I named the above iteration Second Pakistani Empire, with modern IRP being the glorious Third Reich, Dritten Pakistanisches Reich.
 
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Brass Knuckles said:
Yes but population was be very small most of the area shown in the map was unpopulated.
Click to expand...

Pakistan region is one of only 4 major places in the world where civilization started. We are not taught, hence unaware of our Past. Pakistani area has been populated since the start of human society. Far earlier than India.

I do not know why we are not willing to accept our pre-Islamic past. Egyptians, Iranians/Persians, and so many others are very comfortable with their pre-Islamic past. We need to as well.
 
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Sine Nomine said:
Juggu India comes from Indus,Indus flows in Pakistan,atleast have a new name.
Click to expand...

We have called Bharat..head waters of Indus before it flows into Pakistan is Indian territory..that gives justification enough to call ourselves India

Megasthenes in Indica 2,300 years back defined India as the land that has Indus river as the Western border, Manipur Nagaland mountains as the eastern border, Himalayas as the northern border and the ocean as the southern border...pretty self explanatory to me...the Republic of India still controls well over 80 percent of that land more like 85 percent...we donot have anything to do with Baloch Lands or Afghan Lands (Pukhtoon)
 
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Brass Knuckles said:
We are taught 5000 about years old cities. Areas close to rivers had population. I said most of the area was unpopulated. And there was no kingdom.
Click to expand...

If you could please elaborate, how can there be cities, villages, and settlements and an area still be unpopulated? These areas did not exist in a vacuum.

I suppose some of the areas would have been more populated than others, and some areas such as deserts and jungles may not have been populated, but still existed within those kingdoms so came under their control and cultural influence.

There are linguistic and cultural cross overs between Sindhi/ Balochi, Sindhi/Punjabi, Punjabi/Balochi, Balochi/Pathan, Pathan/Punjabi, Punjabi/Kashmiri, and Kashmiri/Pathan. These cross-influences only happen when there have been centuries of cultural intermingling and acceptance, the wide areas around the Indus River system have been populated and lived as a unitary self under their own rule or external rule for thousands of years.

You may not realize it, but your statement appears to dismiss this history. It may not have been your intention, but it is how it comes across.

Juggernaut_is_here said:
We have called Bharat..head waters of Indus before it flows into Pakistan is Indian territory..that gives justification enough to call ourselves India

Megasthenes in Indica 2,300 years back defined India as the land that has Indus river as the Western border, Manipur Nagaland mountains as the eastern border, Himalayas as the northern border and the ocean as the southern border...pretty self explanatory to me...the Republic of India still controls well over 80 percent of that land more like 85 percent...we donot have anything to do with Baloch Lands or Afghan Lands (Pukhtoon)
Click to expand...

Bharat is a religious identity based on a methodological king who controlled a small part of northern India. When the Greeks, Persians, and Arabs referred to the lands beyond Indus, they were referring to an area without a name, without A SELF-IDENTITY, surely you were given a name by your parents/family, not by strangers. how can India adopt a name given by strangers and then use that to create a historical existence? it is non-sense.

If we admit a shared past based on cultural affiliation and noting else, and a South Asian history, not an Indian one, then a modern state of India/Hindustan/Bharat makes sense, without claiming a state-like history to the entire South Asian region.

The Indus flows through a small part of an area controlled by India, not Indian territory. That cannot be used as an excuse to make a claim. It can be once the people of Kasmir are given the right to decide their future. 100,000 Kashmiri have been killed, their blood cannot be forgotten.

Personally I do not have a problem with India using that name, although it would have been better if they did not.

BALOCH and PATHAN lands have always been part of South Asian history, you do not have anything to do with anyone, because you did not exist. India does not have a unitary history.
 
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Juggernaut_is_here said:
We have called Bharat..head waters of Indus before it flows into Pakistan is Indian territory..that gives justification enough to call ourselves India

Megasthenes in Indica 2,300 years back defined India as the land that has Indus river as the Western border, Manipur Nagaland mountains as the eastern border, Himalayas as the northern border and the ocean as the southern border...pretty self explanatory to me...the Republic of India still controls well over 80 percent of that land more like 85 percent...we donot have anything to do with Baloch Lands or Afghan Lands (Pukhtoon)
Click to expand...
By your logic China can also start calling itself India on top of that it's a disputed area.
Brits called it India,since they knew that from old Greek texts,Nehru and Co just dropped British out of "British India" and became proud Indians and there are no Baloch and Afghan Lands.
According to Strabo another Greek Geographer Megasthenes was liar and a person who isn't reliable.
 
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Juggernaut_is_here said:
Glorious second Pakistani Empire, Zweites Pakistanisches Reich ---->before being overrun by enemies

Click to expand...
Juggernaut_is_here said:
Glorious second Pakistani Empire, Zweites Pakistanisches Reich ---->before being overrun by enemies

Click to expand...

He is mistaken regarding timelines and boundaries of chach empire.Islam had already reached indus by 644 AD . there was a battle of hingloj that happened deep near sindh in a place called Deybal back then, you can look it up.The locals lost and then the later caliphs built on it.
refer to my thread i started some time back and the map in it.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/isla...mohammad-bin-qasim-correcting-history.472924/
 
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peagle said:
If you could please elaborate, how can there be cities, villages, and settlements and an area still be unpopulated? These areas did not exist in a vacuum.

I suppose some of the areas would have been more populated than others, and some areas such as deserts and jungles may not have been populated, but still existed within those kingdoms so came under their control and cultural influence.

There are linguistic and cultural cross overs between Sindhi/ Balochi, Sindhi/Punjabi, Punjabi/Balochi, Balochi/Pathan, Pathan/Punjabi, Punjabi/Kashmiri, and Kashmiri/Pathan. These cross-influences only happen when there have been centuries of cultural intermingling and acceptance, the wide areas around the Indus River system have been populated and lived as a unitary self under their own rule or external rule for thousands of years.

You may not realize it, but your statement appears to dismiss this history. It may not have been your intention, but it is how it comes across.



Bharat is a religious identity based on a methodological king who controlled a small part of northern India. When the Greeks, Persians, and Arabs referred to the lands beyond Indus, they were referring to an area without a name, without A SELF-IDENTITY, surely you were given a name by your parents/family, not by strangers. how can India adopt a name given by strangers and then use that to create a historical existence? it is non-sense.

If we admit a shared past based on cultural affiliation and noting else, and a South Asian history, not an Indian one, then a modern state of India/Hindustan/Bharat makes sense, without claiming a state-like history to the entire South Asian region.

The Indus flows through a small part of an area controlled by India, not Indian territory. That cannot be used as an excuse to make a claim. It can be once the people of Kasmir are given the right to decide their future. 100,000 Kashmiri have been killed, their blood cannot be forgotten.

Personally I do not have a problem with India using that name, although it would have been better if they did not.
Click to expand...


Bharat was the name of a king in Rig Veda who was later mythologized in the later quasi-historical epic of Mahabharata...(which according to Harvard Historians a retelling of the Battle of Ten Kings, a real historical battle) This epic was spread throughout India as history during the Gupta Empire from 320 AD along with the Ramayana...Most people started having a national self-consciousness because of that epic...This is the reason why the Islamic Empire stopped at the gates of France and India...because the Franks and the Indians had a fierce sense of national identity......other people from Spain to Sindh welcomed the Arab invasion because they lacked a sense of national identity and were hungry for the civilization, language,script, culture and religion that the Arabs were bringing..

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EpicIndia.jpg


EpicIndiaCities.jpg


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Sine Nomine said:
By your logic China can also start calling itself India on top of that it's a disputed area.
Brits called it India,since they knew that from old Greek texts,Nehru and Co just dropped British out of "British India" and became proud Indians and there are no Baloch and Afghan Lands.
According to Strabo another Greek Geographer Megasthenes was liar and a person who isn't reliable.
Click to expand...

Arrian's Anabapsis contains that definition and that book is considered Holy Grail when it comes to Alexander and his campaigns

-blitzkrieg- said:
He is mistaken regarding timelines and boundaries of chach empire.Islam had already reached indus by 644 AD . there was a battle of hingloj that happened deep near sindh in a place called Deybal back then, you can look it up.The locals lost and then the later caliphs build on it.
refer to my thread i started some time back and the map in it.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/isla...mohammad-bin-qasim-correcting-history.472924/
Click to expand...


I would compltely agree with you his timeline is off and the map is grossly exaggerated...proper accredited academic historical mappers like Schwartzberg give Chach a much smaller area...I liked the map because it was aesthetic and clean and OP gave his own reasons for the borders

The Arab Caliphate was well on the borders of Sindh bearing down by 644 AD

Battle of Rasil

after this Sindh would be permanently out of Hindu control other than a successful raid in 860 AD by the Kalachuris to finance their war with the Gurjara Pratihara kingdom
 
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