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The weapon that could defeat the US in the Gulf

Hi,

Israel has achieved its target. There are U N troops now. In due time the hezbollah will be unarmed. Instead of millitary might, they will have to learn to use political might. The random missile strikes on israel may not happen not as often. Israel has achieved the goal that it set itself. Their loss of face has been the loss of the "merkavas", their arrogance of under-estimating their adversary ( cardinal sin of the worst degre and a cardinal sin against israeli millitary training) and their cocky attitude about their air force. Their callousness in not installing the "TROPHY" system on their armoured vehicles, and their thick headedness in not buying bunker bsters bombs from the U S when they were offered.

This small battle has again set the israeli feet on the ground and they are thinking hard at how to keep ahead of the game. While the israelis will be busy spending man hour and money and learning from their mistakes-----------Nasrullah will be thinking allover, what a price to pay for a little indulgence. As he stated, " if he had know how the israelis would react and how much damage would the lebanese suffer, he would not have frayed deeper into the unknown territory as much as he did ".

As for other nations-----the best solution is to avoid any verbal confrontation with the U S of A. Don't let them entangle you in a battle of rhetoric. One can start a war of words on their own, but you may not have control of what may follow. People react according to their ability and it is better not to seek americas reaction.
 
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1. by lowering its intake standards in terms of i.q. The Pasdaran is outclassed in technology and that is about it. In terms of doctrine, if anything it is Iranian doctrine that is superior given it was so effective against a technologically superior Isreali force. It is U.S. warfighting doctrine that has been so ineffective in Iraq. In terms of experience, yes U.S. military personell have learnt many lessons, but with Iranian agents operating throughtout Iraq and Lebanon, I am sure they have learnt as many lessons as the U.S. without losing so much in blood and treasure.

2. To underestimate so much is a mistake, Sunni Iraqi insurgents operate with Kalashnikovs and RPG's and they have a "superpower" on the run.

3. Just like U.S. soldiers were greeted with flowers in Iraq?

4. Russia has and is playing a spoiler role in Iran, supplying advanced weapons, technology and wait for it......a nuclear reactor.


5. U.S. is not a paper tiger but nor is it able to stamp its authority as one would expect of a sole superpower. In fact the world already is "multipolar lite".

6. Its not like the Iranians can freely train Iraqi insurgents, and nor are they freely training them.


Anyone who thinks the insurgents have the US on the run needs their heads examined. Polticians and wishy washy civvies may have lsot stomach for thye fight, but the US goes where and when it wants in Iraq. No US Army or USMC force has yet been turned back, stopped, repulsed or defeated in the feild not even once. 3000 dead 20,000 wounded vs 40,000 dead and uncounted wounded. The insurgents with thier great Iranian training are trading at better than 10-1 in lives, thats not a winning bet.

The lessons of Hezzbollah in hilly mountainious terrian of lebanon vs a poorly trained IDF have not translated at all in Iraq. You people need to remember that Russia lost more men in 1 day during the 1st drive on Grozny than the US has lost in 4 years of war. Passadran (hezzbollah) doctrine stopped the IDF, it has failed to stop the US even 1 time.

Sigatoka,

1. A chinese u.s. confrontation will only occur in a scenario where China invades Taiwain, not at Midway island.

2. I think 5 minutes is quite an exaggeration, PLAN ships operate close to Chinese mainland where it can rely on airsupport and ground launched anti-ship missiles and anti air cover.

3. U.S. planes won't be waved past by Chinese aircrafts and ground based defences on their way to their targets.


4. Then maybe US should conduct a hyperwar on the sunni insurgents in Iraq against whom it is struggling.

1- The literoal waters off China may not be deep, but they are deeper than the Persain gulf and are also not boxed in.

2- its not an exageration at all. The US subs can strike at the key units of the PLAN at will i the decsion was ever made to do so. PLAN ASW are sadly lacking.

3- The US would lead the way with stealth planes at night and the PRC would be outta luck. Once the F-22 is in widespread service several new possibilities for areial warfar eopen up that will hammer PLAAF.

4- Unlike the insurgents China has very clearly defined and easily targeted centers of gravity that can rapidly paralyize it. Just how many critical rail bridges, and telephone exchanges, and riverdam ship locks do you have to hit to effectively cut china is half? based on the US who has a much more devleoped and robust system less than 20 targets. if the US can be cut in half with just 20 strikes how much more vulnrable is China, who is even more rail dependant for bulk freight movement and military movement?

The Chinese fanboys fail to graps the fact that the US practices stragtegic bombing (as opposed to carpet bombing) and goes after enemy centers of gravity witha vengance.
 
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The only real thing that can defeat the US war machine is economic wise., but the effect would be felt by all nations causing a major problem, and US defecit will make it very hard to rise back up, if dollar plumets down like crazy., military wise it's a juggernaut.

But even right now the US is hurt cause alot of equipment maintainance is falling behind their was an article about it like 2 months ago., but once this war is over it can get back up again, but if this keeps going it will cause a major problem.
 
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Anyone who thinks the insurgents have the US on the run needs their heads examined. Polticians and wishy washy civvies may have lsot stomach for thye fight, but the US goes where and when it wants in Iraq. No US Army or USMC force has yet been turned back, stopped, repulsed or defeated in the feild not even once. 3000 dead 20,000 wounded vs 40,000 dead and uncounted wounded. The insurgents with thier great Iranian training are trading at better than 10-1 in lives, thats not a winning bet.

The lessons of Hezzbollah in hilly mountainious terrian of lebanon vs a poorly trained IDF have not translated at all in Iraq. You people need to remember that Russia lost more men in 1 day during the 1st drive on Grozny than the US has lost in 4 years of war. Passadran (hezzbollah) doctrine stopped the IDF, it has failed to stop the US even 1 time.

Sigatoka,



1- The literoal waters off China may not be deep, but they are deeper than the Persain gulf and are also not boxed in.

2- its not an exageration at all. The US subs can strike at the key units of the PLAN at will i the decsion was ever made to do so. PLAN ASW are sadly lacking.

3- The US would lead the way with stealth planes at night and the PRC would be outta luck. Once the F-22 is in widespread service several new possibilities for areial warfar eopen up that will hammer PLAAF.

4- Unlike the insurgents China has very clearly defined and easily targeted centers of gravity that can rapidly paralyize it. Just how many critical rail bridges, and telephone exchanges, and riverdam ship locks do you have to hit to effectively cut china is half? based on the US who has a much more devleoped and robust system less than 20 targets. if the US can be cut in half with just 20 strikes how much more vulnrable is China, who is even more rail dependant for bulk freight movement and military movement?

The Chinese fanboys fail to graps the fact that the US practices stragtegic bombing (as opposed to carpet bombing) and goes after enemy centers of gravity witha vengance.

I wouldnt call IDF poorly trained, just surprised by the hezbollah, but what objectives did hezbollah achieve : none.
I agree with the rest of your post
 
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Neither has IDF achieved anything., instead isolated themselves from the ME and angered alot more people! They just put themselves under danger than ever before.
 
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I suggest you read Mastan Khan's post; IDF played their cards very well, at the cost of 2 soldiers they killed a lot of hezaballoh's.
 
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I wouldnt call IDF poorly trained, just surprised by the hezbollah, but what objectives did hezbollah achieve : none.
I agree with the rest of your post

The IDF itself admits fightign the two infantadas caused them to lose thier focus and abilites in true combined arms operations. Even thier elite brigades didn't manage to achieve thier objectives. If thier is a round 2 expect to see different results.
 
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The IDF itself admits fightign the two infantadas caused them to lose thier focus and abilites in true combined arms operations. Even thier elite brigades didn't manage to achieve thier objectives. If thier is a round 2 expect to see different results.

Taking Hizabolah out compleltly is never possible, i am sure they knew, What i understood from the whole conflict, find an apt reason, get in and kill as many as possible and get out keeping a UN buffer zone in the middle. Make sure western population believes that hezboallah are a strong force and more action should be taken against them therefore more support in the west for ISrael. i believe it is PR victory for them.

Adu
 
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this is Hezb's second decisive victory over the IDF. The first one was when they kicked out the SLA and the IDF from Southern Lebanon in 2000. With the IDF and its lackey SLA taking heavy casualties.

By Andrew McGregor

The Russian-made, Syrian-supplied Kornet missile.

As the world waits to see if the UN-brokered ceasefire in Lebanon holds, the Israeli army will begin assessing its disappointing performance against Hezbollah guerrillas. Among the many aspects to be investigated is the vulnerability of Israel's powerful armored corps to small, hand-held, wire-guided anti-tank weapons. Indeed, Hezbollah's innovative use of anti-tank missiles was the cause of most Israeli casualties and has given the small but powerful weapons a new importance in battlefield tactics.

In a recent statement, Hezbollah's armed wing, al-Moqawama al-Islamia (Islamic Resistance), described Israel's main battle-tank as "a toy for the rockets of the resistance" (al-Manar TV, August 11). Hezbollah's anti-tank weapons consist of a variety of wire-guided missiles (usually of Russian design and manufactured and/or supplied by Iran and Syria) and rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs). The missiles include the European-made Milan, the Russian-designed Metis-M, Sagger AT-3, Spigot AT-4 and the Russian-made Kornet AT-14. The latter is a Syrian supplied missile capable of targeting low-flying helicopters. Iraqi Fedayeen irregulars used the Kornet against U.S. forces in 2003. The most portable versions of these weapons are carried in a fiberglass case with a launching rail attached to the lid.

On July 30, the Israeli army published photos of various anti-tank missiles they claim to have found in a Hezbollah bunker (see: http://www.hnn.co.il/index.php?modul...sk=view;id=967). The weapons include Saggers and TOW missiles. The TOW (Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire-guided) missile is a formidable weapon first produced by the United States in the 1970s. These missiles were of interest as their packing crates were marked 2001, suggesting that these were relatively new additions to Hezbollah's arsenal and not part of the shipment of TOW missiles from Israel to Iran that was part of the Iran-Contra scandal of 1986 (the shelf-life of the TOW is roughly 20 years). On August 6, Israeli Major-General Benny Gantz showed film of BGM-71 TOW and Sagger AT-3 missiles he reported were captured at one of Hezbollah's field headquarters (Haaretz, August 6).

The primary target of Hezbollah's battlefield missiles is the Israeli-made Merkava tank. The Merkava was designed for the maximum protection of its crews, with heavy armor and a rear escape hatch. The emphasis on crew survival is not simply a humanitarian gesture; the small country of Israel cannot provide an endless number of trained, combat-ready tank crews if casualties begin to mount. The tank is also designed to be easily and quickly repaired, a specialty of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF). The modular armor plating can be easily replaced if damaged, or replaced entirely with upgraded materials when available. The first generation of Merkavas was built in the 1970s and was soon deployed in Lebanon in 1982. The much-improved Merkava Mk 4 has been Israel's main battle-tank since its introduction in 2004.

Current battlefield reports suggest that Hezbollah fighters are well-trained in aiming at the Merkava's most vulnerable points, resulting in as many as one-quarter of their missiles successfully piercing the armor (Yediot Aharonot, August 10). Hezbollah attacks on Merkava tanks during the November 2005 raid on the border town of Ghajar were videotaped and closely examined to find points where the armor was susceptible to missile attack. While some of their missiles have impressive ranges (up to three kilometers), the guerrillas prefer to fire from close range to maximize their chances of hitting weak points on the Merkava. Operating in two- or three-man teams, the insurgents typically try to gain the high ground in the hilly terrain before selecting targets, using well-concealed missile stockpiles that allow them to operate behind Israeli lines (Jerusalem Post, August 3).

Without artillery, Hezbollah has adapted its use of anti-tank missiles for mobile fire support against Israeli troops taking cover in buildings. There are numerous reports of such use, the most devastating being on August 9, when an anti-tank missile collapsed an entire building, claiming the lives of nine Israeli reservists (Y-net, August 10). Four soldiers from Israel's Egoz (an elite reconnaissance unit) were killed in a Bint Jbail house when it was struck by a Sagger missile (Haaretz, August 6). TOW missiles were used effectively in 2000 against IDF outposts in south Lebanon before the Israeli withdrawal. There are also recent instances of anti-tank weapons being used against Israeli infantry in the field, a costly means of warfare but one that meets two important Hezbollah criteria: the creation of Israeli casualties and the preservation of highly-outnumbered Hezbollah guerrillas who can fire the weapons from a relatively safe distance.

It was suggested that the IDF helicopter brought down by Hezbollah fire on August 12 was hit by an anti-tank missile. Hezbollah claimed to have used a new missile called the Wa'ad (Promise), although the organization occasionally renames existing missiles (Jerusalem Post, August 12). At least one of Israel's ubiquitous armored bulldozers has also fallen prey to Hezbollah's missiles.

The Syrian-made RPG-29 was previously used with some success against Israeli tanks in Gaza. Hezbollah also uses this weapon, with a dual-warhead that allows it to penetrate armor. On August 6, the Israeli press reported that IDF intelligence sources claimed that an improved Russian-made version of the RPG-29 was being sold to Syria before transfer to the Islamic Resistance (Haaretz, August 6). In response, Russia's Foreign Ministry denied any involvement in supplying anti-tank weapons to Hezbollah (RIA Novosti, August 10). The IDF reports that anti-tank missiles and rockets continue to cross the border into Lebanon from Syria, despite the destruction of roads and bridges in the area (Haaretz, August 13).

The Merkava tank has assumed an important role as a symbol of Israeli military might. Their destruction in combat has an important symbolic value for Hezbollah. Hezbollah's tactical innovations and reliance on anti-tank missiles over more traditional infantry weapons will undoubtedly prompt serious introspection on the part of the IDF in anticipation of renewed conflict along the border.
 
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I suggest you read Mastan Khan's post; IDF played their cards very well, at the cost of 2 soldiers they killed a lot of hezaballoh's.

You along with your 'mastana' buddy are full of it 'Adux'

IDF admits 119 of its soldiers died in combat with hundreds more wounded. more than 100 armoured vehicles were also destroyed, along with 3 choppers shot down and 2 naval Super Dvora's hit, and one detroyed.

There's a huge difference between 2 and 119. Not to mention thousands of Israeli civies who fled, and the detsruction caused by thousands of Katyusha's that killed and injured dozens of Israeli civies.

Hezbollah cracked the code:Technology likely supplied by Iran...

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Hezbollah cracked the code

Technology likely supplied by Iran allowed guerrillas to stop Israeli tank assaults

BY MOHAMAD BAZZI
Newsday Middle East Correspondent

September 18, 2006

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wocode184896831sep18,0,3091818.story?page=2&coll=n y-leadworldnews-headlines

AITA SHAAB, Lebanon -- Hezbollah guerrillas were able to hack into Israeli radio communications during last month's battles in south Lebanon, an intelligence breakthrough that helped them thwart Israeli tank assaults, according to Hezbollah and Lebanese officials.

Using technology most likely supplied by Iran, special Hezbollah teams monitored the constantly changing radio frequencies of Israeli troops on the ground. That gave guerrillas a picture of Israeli movements, casualty reports and supply routes. It also allowed Hezbollah anti-tank units to more effectively target advancing Israeli armor, according to the officials.

"We were able to monitor Israeli communications, and we used this information to adjust our planning," said a Hezbollah commander involved in the battles, speaking on the condition of anonymity. The official refused to detail how Hezbollah was able to intercept and decipher Israeli transmissions. He acknowledged that guerrillas were not able to hack into Israeli communications around the clock.

The Israeli military refused to comment on whether its radio communications were compromised, citing security concerns. But a former Israeli general, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Hezbollah's ability to secretly hack into military transmissions had "disastrous" consequences for the Israeli offensive.

"Israel's military leaders clearly underestimated the enemy and this is just one example," he said.

Dodging the efforts

Like most modern militaries, Israeli forces use a practice known as "frequency-hopping" - rapidly switching among dozens of frequencies per second - to prevent radio messages from being jammed or intercepted. It also uses encryption devices to make it difficult for enemy forces to decipher transmissions even if they are intercepted. The Israelis mostly rely on a U.S.-designed communication system called the Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System.

Hezbollah's ability to intercept and decode Israeli transmissions underscores how the Shia group had higher military capabilities than many Israeli and U.S. officials thought.

Much of Hezbollah's capability is believed to have come from its two main backers, Iran and Syria.

During 34 days of fighting, which ended Aug. 14 under a cease-fire brokered by the United Nations, Hezbollah repeatedly surprised Israel by deploying new types of missiles and battlefield tactics.

"The Israelis did not realize that they were facing a guerrilla force with the capabilities of a regular army," said a senior Lebanese security official who asked not to be identified. "Hezbollah invested a lot of resources into eavesdropping and signals interception."

Besides radio transmissions, the official said Hezbollah also monitored cell phone calls among Israeli troops. But cell phones are usually easier to intercept than military radio, and officials said Israeli forces were under strict orders not to divulge sensitive information over the phone.

Hezbollah eavesdropping teams had trained Hebrew speakers who could quickly translate intercepted Israeli transmissions and relay the information to local commanders, the Hezbollah official said. Even before the war, the group had dozens of translators working in its southern Beirut offices to monitor Israeli media and phone intercepts.

Mistakes happen

With frequency-hopping and encryption, most radio communications become very difficult to hack. But troops in the battlefield sometimes make mistakes in following secure radio procedures and can give an enemy a way to break into the frequency-hopping patterns. That might have happened during some battles between Israel and Hezbollah, according to the Lebanese official. Hezbollah teams likely also had sophisticated reconnaissance devices that could intercept radio signals even while they were frequency-hopping.

During one raid in southern Lebanon, Israeli special forces said they found a Hezbollah office equipped with jamming and eavesdropping devices. Israeli officials said the base also had detailed maps of northern Israel, lists of Israeli patrols along the border and cell phone numbers for Israeli commanders.

That raid highlighted the ongoing spy war between Hezbollah and Israel. Since Israeli troops withdrew from southern Lebanon in May 2000 - after an 18-year occupation and guerrilla war with Hezbollah - the militia has stepped up its espionage efforts against Israel. According to Israeli military officials, a special Hezbollah unit recruits Israeli Arabs and others to spy for it. The agents are assigned to obtain maps, monitor Israeli patrols, gather cell phone numbers and photograph military facilities. This information is used to draw up detailed maps and files that could be used to direct Hezbollah's rocket and missile attacks.

"After the Israeli withdrawal in 2000, each side competed to spy on the other," said Nizar Qader, a retired Lebanese army general who is now an independent military analyst. "This intelligence-gathering was essential to fighting a war ... Hezbollah appears to have collected better information than the Israelis."

After Hezbollah abducted two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid on July 12, Israel launched its most intense attack since it invaded Lebanon in 1982. The offensive crippled the country's infrastructure, displaced 1 million people, cut off Lebanon from the world and killed more than 1,200 Lebanese - the majority of them civilians. Hezbollah fired nearly 4,000 rockets at Israel, killing 43 civilians. Of the 119 Israeli soldiers killed, the majority were killed by anti-tank missiles.

Hezbollah's ability to hack into Israeli communications made its arsenal of anti-tank missiles even more deadly by improving the targeting. Throughout the ground war, Hezbollah deployed well-trained anti-tank teams to transport these missiles and fire them in ways that would inflict heavy casualties on Israeli forces. The units were made up of four to six fighters who moved around mostly on foot.

The militia used four kinds of sophisticated missiles that enabled it to disable - and, in some cases, destroy - Israel's most powerful armor: Merkava tanks. The Merkava is reinforced with several tons of armor, a virtual fortress on tracks intended to ensure its crew's survival on the battlefield.

All the missiles used by Hezbollah are relatively easy to transport and can be fired by a single guerrilla or a two-person team. They all rely on armor-piercing warheads. The most prevalent of Hezbollah's anti-tank weapons is the Russian made RPG-29, a powerful variation on a standard rocket-propelled grenade. The RPG-29 has a range of 500 yards.

Using all their capabilities

Hezbollah also used three other potent anti-tank missiles, according to Israeli and Lebanese officials: the Russian-made Metis, which has a range of 1 mile and can carry high-explosive warheads; the Russian-built Kornet, which has a range of 3 miles and thermal sights for tracking the heat signatures of tanks, and the European-built MILAN (a French acronym for Anti-Tank Light Infantry Missile), which has a range of 1.2 miles, a guidance system and the ability to be fired at night.

Israeli officials say the Kornet and RPG-29 were provided to Hezbollah by Syria, which bought them from Russia in the late 1990s. Russian officials are investigating whether Syria violated an agreement that these weapons would not be transferred to a third party.

Analysts say Hezbollah used all its capabilities - eavesdropping, anti-tank missiles and guerrilla fighting skills - to maximum effect.

"The information collected by signals intercepts was being used to help direct fighters on the battlefield," Qader said. "These are tactics of a modern army."

Sonia Verma contributed to this story from Jerusalem.
 
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Taking Hizabolah out compleltly is never possible, i am sure they knew, What i understood from the whole conflict, find an apt reason, keeping a UN buffer zone in the middle. Make sure western population believes that hezboallah are a strong force and more action should be taken against them therefore more support in the west for ISrael. i believe it is PR victory for them.

Adu

Adux do u honestly belive what you are typing.it was a total loss for them. only thing they could do was hit from air And run. those pics couldnt bring them PR IN any part of the world other then India.off course.they lost on every front.only a internet warrior like your self will think other wise.:rofl:
 
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Adux do u honestly belive what you are typing.it was a total loss for them. only thing they could do was hit from air And run. those pics couldnt bring them PR IN any part of the world other then India.off course.they lost on every front.only a internet warrior like your self will think other wise.:rofl:

Ok as u say.
 
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Lulldapull most of those pics are from march 2003 not the insurgency and some are from GW1 and almost all are duplicates of the same tanks and helicopters over and over again.

No matter how you try and convey your fantasies the truth remains that the US Army and USMC have not been turned back or defeated in a battle even 1 time in Iraq and the US is losing about 750 people a year the insurgents are losing 10-20 times that number per year and thats only becuase the US is holding back from total war. The insurgecny is also giving the US the reason it needs to take action agaisnt Iran. Every American service person killed with weapons smuggle din by the Pasadran is on emore reason for the US to send in its stealth planes the day after we leave Iraq and flatten Iran and turn the country into a poverty stricken broken nation.

Yes Hezzbollah stopped the IDF, but it was an IDF that was overconfident, poorly trained, and unsupported. Tanks are a combine darms tool, sending them into the hills alone is asking for anti-armor ambushes like what occured.

And while Hezzbollah stopped the IDF is did not defeat it. Hezzbollah failed to show any ability to resupply, move or communciate. It fought and often died in place, and at waht cost. In terms of combatants it lost roughly twice as many fightersas the IDF lost soldiers. in terms of civillians the scale isn't even close. Thousands of lebanese died beucase hezzbollah used them as shields and to gain politcal points, this vs a couple dozen Israelies. Lebanon lost billions in damages and lost revenue. And while the world was fixated on lebanon the IDF had a feild day in Gaza and the west bank freed from the news camera's watchful eye.

Thats a hell of a price to pay, luckily for hezzbollah they have no problem letting other people blood pay thier bills. And people in the Islamic world call them hereos.
 
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