The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Icarus]

MiG-29 Fulcrum High-Performance Combat Aircraft - Air Force Technology

An old link but will help you see the fire power and tenacity of the fulcrum.

I know it's a plane with killer capabilities but it has been surpassed by the MKI.

 

[sancho]

I'm not sure, I know for a fact India's Mirages are primarily reserved for accurately delivering A2G munitions. They aren't sent into combat alone, India's standard strike package would consist of a Mirage with about 4 bisons flying escort.

No they were procured as interceptors, besides the Mig 29 and above the Mig 21s, but in Kargil it proved its capabilities in A2G too. With the upgrade it gets even more leathal, with MICA missiles, AASM bomb kits and possibly even Scalp cruise missiles.

MKIs are air superiority fighters, I believe they will be the first to enter combat.............

Yes, but it is comparable to the F15 strike eagle, with heavy strike capabilities too (500 and 1500 Kg guided bombs, Kh 59 and soon Brahmos A2G missiles, as well several anti ship and anti radiation missiles). So for heavy bombarding, after air superiority is achieved, its very useful.

 

[anathema]

MKIs are air superiority fighters, I believe they will be the first to enter combat.............

Excellent question --

I have always wondered how and when will Su 30 be used in a conflict.

Few points to consider -- These are all theories...

1) Who will suppress the Sam sites , radar sites , etc. ?

I believe SU 30 MKI will enter up the airspace at a very high altitude (beyond SAM coverage) but at the same time all the SAM sites will lit up painting SU 30 MKI. MKI will relay the position to JAG's , M2K and Mig 27 to do the ground level Radar clearence. At the same time SU 30 MKI will watch out for any interceptors. Note the role that MKI is doing can only be done by them due to the endurance factor.

2) Once most of the SAM sites are cleared -- SU 30 MKI's will enter in full force towards the fighter bases. Hordes and hordes of aircraft -- assisted by Phalcons. Note that the E3 sentry can control almost 128 aircrafts at one point of time (by some rpeorts) , Phalcon can do the same.

3) Mig 29's will be used purely in interceptor roles - i.e will be the primary aircraft for tackling F16's that Pakistan will send towards Indian Air space.

4) It is important to note what will be the role of AWACS on both sides. But i am pretty sure that MKI will be tasked with keeping the Pakistan AWACS at bay - i.e outside its operational range. However this is not as easy as it sounds ..for this to happen air superiority needs to be established -- this can be debated.Same role goes for F16 also. Phalcon on the other hand will be tasked to co-ordinate multiple sorties for Mig 29 interceptors , MKI intrusion into Pak airspace and Jaguar clearence. IAF has been practising this and observing this as part of all its multinational excercises.

5) What will be the role of MRCA ? - depends on the aiircraft.

6) Aircrafts like Mig21's due to their high numbers can be used in a wave formation. This aircrafts will complement MKI's in their intrusion to PAK airspace...the tactics will be fire the BVR's and scout. Let MKI do the full kill.

7) Mirage is multi role aircraft and one of the most reliable. They will be tasked with destruction of high value targets. The interception route will be assisted by MKI's.

Number of MKI's currently stands at almost 120, every year 23-28 will be added. It is pretty much sure that they will be involved in every phase of war due to their technological prowess , endurance and high numbers available.

Finally these are just theories , members please feel free to add or counter any points.
These strategies are from IAF perspective, i am not talking about PAF perspective which will be altogether a seperate topic.

 

[ramu]

I know it's a plane with killer capabilities but it has been surpassed by the MKI.

No plan survives contact with the enemy. MKI is a high valued asset and will not be the first to be used.

This ofcourse is based on the assumption that India will not start the conflict and it is interception mission!

 

[anathema]

No plan survives contact with the enemy. MKI is a high valued asset and will not be the first to be used.

I doubt that Ramu....MKI numbers will be in the range of more than 120 aircrafts....For these high numbers and due to their high endurance factor, they will be used first. But MKI's true potential will be released only after the enemy SAM sites are suppressed.
During one of the Air Shows (Aero India 2009) i asked this question to Air force pilot. I asked since MKI is a matter of national pride , will we wait before using it. He said in not so amiable words (i guess he was pissed because he was from Su 30 squadron and felt that they should be going in first) -- 'Losses will happen in any war , SU 30 loss is not ruled out ..on the contrary IAF is prepared to loose SU 30's in order to achieve complete air superiority". He then ignored my further questions.

 

[sancho]

I feel that the AMCA will augment India's fleet of FGFA just like JSF is meant to augment F-22's.

In an aggressive scenario the PAK-FA's will lead the strike and clear the way for AMCA, which will then be followed by MRCA/Mirage 2000-5/Jaguars/MKI's.

But F22 and F35 are 2 totally different types of fighters, FGFA and AMCA differ only in size, the early reports talked even about the same capabilities like SC, TVC and so on, so where is the gain?

More A2G weapons? Doubtful, Pak Fa has long weapon bays that should be able to carry even some A2G missiles like the X-58USHKE anti-radar missile and of course guided bombs.

Is it cost-effective? No, with twin engines and the size of an F18SH maybe, it belongs to the heavier medium class fighters.

Will it be the workhorse of IAF, with lower numbers of FGFA for air superiority? No, at least 250 Pak Fa / FGFA are sure right now, 270 MKIs will stay in service till 2030, or longer. Another 250 - 300 LCA and MMRCA will be inducted too, so it's doubtful that AMCA will come in way bigger numbers, like F35.


Now consider a stealth UCAV like Aura in comparison!

It is a single engine aircaft, with no pilot, no radar, AAMS, just geared for low RCS and strikes, especially in high risk strike missions. It is clearly cheaper to develop and operate, offers clearly different roles to FGFA, or the real workhorses of the fleet (LCA, MMRCA, MKI).

IAF lacks a real need, or role for AMCA, because there are too many other types of similar size, roles, which will remain in service for decades.

 

[sancho]

Excellent question --

I have always wondered how and when will Su 30 be used in a conflict.

Few points to consider -- These are all theories...

It's OT that's why I don't want to talk about it too much, but the fact that MKI will be detected by AWACS of PLAAF and PAF, even within Indian airspace, makes it useful only for strikes from distances with A2G missiles. It simply would be a big and easy target for ground defense, as well es enemy air forces in such missions you pointed out.
It is more likely that upgraded M2Ks, Jags and even better MMRCAs will take over the SEAD, or light strike roles, that are better suited for such missions (Rafale / F18SH).

 

[ramu]

I doubt that Ramu....MKI numbers will be in the range of more than 120 aircrafts....For these high numbers and due to their high endurance factor, they will be used first. But MKI's true potential will be released only after the enemy SAM sites are suppressed.
During one of the Air Shows (Aero India 2009) i asked this question to Air force pilot. I asked since MKI is a matter of national pride , will we wait before using it. He said in not so amiable words (i guess he was pissed because he was from Su 30 squadron and felt that they should be going in first) -- 'Losses will happen in any war , SU 30 loss is not ruled out ..on the contrary IAF is prepared to loose SU 30's in order to achieve complete air superiority". He then ignored my further questions.

What a coincidence ... I spoke to a pilot too but he is a retired wing commander and my relative. He has high regards for Su30 but his opinion was that Su30s will no doubt give India the advantage but if India is on the back foot(unlikely India will escalate a war to full scale unless provoked) then Su30s will hold fort and the forward air bases and anti aircraft have to be neutralised before Su30s can take an offensive role.
Unlikely that Su30 will be used as interceptors.

 

[anathema]

It's OT that's why I don't want to talk about it too much, but the fact that MKI will be detected by AWACS of PLAAF and PAF, even within Indian airspace, makes it useful for only for strikes from distances with A2G missiles. It simply would be a big and easy target for ground defense, as well es enemy air forces in such missions.
It is more likely that upgraded M2Ks, Jags and even better MMRCAs will take over the SEAD, or light strike roles, that are better suited for such missions (Rafale / F18SH).

Agree its OT...i will open up a thread...i believe its a interesting topic which can be discussed further. I agree with the gist of your post but not entirely.

 

[black flame]

Even if chinese dont induct Thunder or its variants what will it prove? -Nothing
We dont have to prove any thing dude.
Jf-17 is ours and it will defend our skies against mki's
Thats it.

woow dude u made my day very easy............
then even we dont have to prove anything to u rite from LCA Arjun AMCA or any weapons for that matter when u step in our land we will show them how potent weapons they are............

 

[k7x]

as per this design how many total hard points are there. how many internal and how many external hard points , can any one guess.

 

[Arjun MBT]

Goodness! That is a pretty good design coming from a nation so new in aeronautics. Are you considering this aircraft to be providing a role similar to the JSF? Or do you intend to replace some fighter aircraft in your inventory?

This project has been taken up to replace the Large fleet of fighter Bombers, Jaguar and Mig 27's In our Inventory...

Adding this plus the MRCA plus the Russian Sukhois and the PAKFA programme, as well as your own current home-made fighter would be 4-5 different types that you're likely to operate. So will it be a strike role primary or a swing role?

It should be Multi/Swing Role fighter Aircraft.

Also, I am aware that you're in favour of thrust vectoring. However, the nozzles here don't seem to be depicting so. Please clarify if this is an intended capability or not.

Yes Thrust Vectoring is an Intended capability here, let me give You the Brochure of ADA

 

[Arjun MBT]

If this is the Final design then I must say this Is handcrafted to perfection, it is Indeed a Beautiful design India has Come Up with

 

[soaringphnx]

Goodness! That is a pretty good design coming from a nation so new in aeronautics. Are you considering this aircraft to be providing a role similar to the JSF? Or do you intend to replace some fighter aircraft in your inventory?

The AMCA together with Su-30MKI, MRCA (hopefully Rafale) and LCA will complement the PAK FA. It will replace Jaguars and MiG-27s which will be reaching the end of their service times.

Adding this plus the MRCA plus the Russian Sukhois and the PAKFA programme, as well as your own current home-made fighter would be 4-5 different types that you're likely to operate. So will it be a strike role primary or a swing role?

Since we will have the PAK FA for air superiority roles, the AMCA is likely to be a multi-role aircraft, but will most probably be used for strike missions (similar to how our Mirages complemented the MiG-29).

Also, I am aware that you're in favour of thrust vectoring. However, the nozzles here don't seem to be depicting so. Please clarify if this is an intended capability or not.

TVC is an intended capability. The design is still in an early phase and I am sure there is more than enough time to modify it for even 3D TVC. Even with the present design, I think it will be possible to include 2D TVC.

 

[soaringphnx]

I have a query. Even though I am not aware of aeronautics, could someone here tell me why the wings are so short and the fuel tanks so small? This would severely hamper the fighter's range and considering your geography, you will need fighters that are capable of an average of at least 4,000-5,000 Km combat range.

This has probably been done so that manuverability and other abilities are not compromised. The AMCA will never enter the battle field alone. With aerial refuelling, the range of any aircraft can be increased to a great extent. There is also an option of carrying fuel in external tanks which can be jettisoned before it comes in range of enemy radar installations. That way, range is increased but by jettisoning them before coming in range of enemy radars, stealth is maintained.