The so-called Armenian Genocide

[turkaholic]

I felt the need to open up this thread even though I know it will stir up a lot heated discussions, and I kindly ask everyone not to blindly accept that it was genocide without any substantial evidence. The way Armenians represent themselves is by telling everyone about their “my grandma told me” stories ,and showing a couple of pictures that contains dead bodies of people whose nationality cannot even be revealed. The reason why so many uninformed people blindly accepts this claim is due to :

1) If the Turks are involved that they must be guilty mentality
2) People automatically choose the weak side as victims
3) Cruelty of Holocaust and the likely comparison between the two events

However, when you use a little bit of common sense when considering such an allegation, you would find out who the real victim is here. I am sure even after I present my case, my point of view whether you call it biased or not, there will be some people here who would give us one liners that would contain “Turks need to stop denying this” …

Okay, here’s the situation. It is the World War I. A period in which the Ottoman Empire was on the verge of complete destruction, and is surrounded by the super powers at the time fighting a war on all fronts. The Russians, the Brits, the French, the Greeks just to name a few. Who in the world in their right mind would want to create a war inside the country when they were surrounded by the superpowers at the time? So, the Armenians are very nice, they are sitting on their *****, doing nothing wrong during the war, then all of a sudden, like we got nothing else to worry about, like we have enough time, resources, man power when we have to deal with France, UK, Greece, Russia etc... , we will just go and kill the Armenians. Oh, that's convenient. I just don’t get the logic.

So the Russians who have been known to be close to the Armenians did not tell them to rebel against the Ottoman Empire? Oh believe me. They did that to cripple us inside to make their job easier. Armenians were promised a piece of land by the Russians in the North East Turkey. Actually at some point, Armenian rebels seized control of several Turkish cities by killing the Turks. Wow, that is innocent. The only thing that the Turkish government have done to prevent an uprising was to displace the Armenians at critical points which I think was the right thing to do. What should we have done? Just sit back and watch them rebel? I mean come on people. Be a little reasonable. Question it. Confront the brutal facts of reality. Use logic, common sense… Do not blindly and irresponsibly blame a nation without any substantial evidence. Our archives are wide open. Where are the independent researchers to investigate this issue in Turkey? Why aren’t they being allowed to investigate? Who is behind all this? Well… we know who’s behind this conspiracy.

I am really tired of our image in the world thanks to the Armenians and how they fool the whole world. It just amazes me how everyone believes in everything they say. Would anyone us if we said the opposite was true? Well… you know the answer.

 

[Luftwaffe]

the thread more appropriately belongs to World Affairs Section. It does have political motives aside from military and historical. Ask Mods to move it.

 

[turkaholic]

^ Yeah I was debating that myself. Mods please move it to the appropriate section.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Hey aren't you not allowed by law to deny the armenian genocide?

Or is it the other way around?

I get all confused with all these genocides, holocausts and what not, very confusing because of the consistent moral standards Turks follow.

 

[oceanx]

Well, I applaud your courage for opening up this can of **** as, I presume, a Turkish American. Your reasoning is not illogical. I have looked into this to some extent (if only in the capacity of a 2-bit "Google scholar" - to this I will readily concede).

As much as I don't personally take to Fateh's tone, his point does resonate, in so far that there has been such a proliferation of words such as "genocide" that its mere application has become the brandishing of a political weapon as opposed to an exercise in digging out the historical truth.

My view is that any group of people who has existed more than a few centuries and fought a few wars probably have committed significant atrocities.

Even a cursory look at the history of the Turks suggests that in the course of westward expansion of the original Turkic tribes - whoever they may have been, many, many atrocities were committed. However, this was probably no different from the course of the southward expansion of the Germanic tribes from Scandinavia/Jutland that eventually extinguished Rome.

Not to mention the blood-soaked expansion in all directions over the centuries by the Rus, the Mongols before them, and by others ...

Anyhow, without going on tangents, we accept that the prototypical "genocide" - the Holocaust was a calculated, systematic extermination campaign against a specific group of people as defined by "genetics" and religion.

Did the massacre of the Armenians happen with the same intent to exterminate?

Based on what I could find, the proof of this intent was scanty - unless someone points me to sources I am not aware of.

I fail to see any material difference between the Czarist/Soviet exile of hundreds of thousands of Tartars and the exile of Armenians and the attendant, extreme hardship to which both groups were subject.

In both cases, an intent to exterminate is difficult to prove. Come to think of it, throughout history every time Yankees defeated an Native tribe - such as the Apache, they herded the vanquished in some cattle cars and shipped them off to some barren patch of land ... now in all honesty did the righteous American Congress pass a Native Indian Genocide Act? Not to my knowledge.

Look they even named their attack choppers "Apaches" - if that's not championing "Native heritage", I don't know what is ... between that and the casinos ... what more can one ask?

Anyways, my point is, for one reason or another, the Armenian community was subject to a treacherous deportation and massacres along the way (imagine the Gazans being deported by Israelis to the Sinai dessert - would you call that proportionate self-defence?)

People can argue until cows come home whether Turkish regulars participated enthusiastically in the ignonimity or they acted rather with restraints, or whether most of the dirty work was carried out by Kurdish irregulars with extraordinary cruelty in eastern Anatolia.

Was Turkey responsible for creating the conditions under which Armenians were massacred? I think so. Should the Armenian community be compensated? Darn right. So if the Native Americans can get their tax-free gambling joints, I say the Armenian-run brothels in Istanbul need to enjoy the same tax-free status. After all, America sets the moral standard by which the whole world need to follow ...

Anyways, on a serious note, apologizing to Armenians for the massacre that indisputably took place during the mass deportation is, after all, in Turkey's best regional and long-term interest.

Beyond that, I don't personally see any merit in the world holding Turkey to a higher standard than Russia is held to (nothing against today's Russia). Above all, United States Congress need not get involved, period.

Unless they have something to say about the tax-exempt status of brothels ...

Again just my 54 cents.

 

[turkaholic]

oceanx,

Thanks for your input and contribution to this point. It was a very respectful post, and I appreciate that.

However, one thing you are missing related to this issue which is included in my original post is the Armenians' rebellious activities thanks to their Russian brothers. My main argument against this is why would we even bother to disturb a minority group who supposedly were NOT rebelling against the Ottoman Empire when we were in such a difficult situation? It just doesn't make sense to me.

They were deported, yes, but why? Why isn't anyone asking this question either? Why did we feel the need to deport only the Armenians if they were just so innocent? A lot of them died during the deportation process, and others while clashing with the Turks. Weadmit that.

If they did rebel which I believe they did, I am sorry but they don't deserve squat from Turkey. The death toll numbers keep changing from 1.5 mil to 2mil, then someone else says no it was 2.5 mil etc... This is all because there's no evidence!!! How could people blindly fall into this trap?

 

[turkaholic]

Hey aren't you not allowed by law to deny the armenian genocide?

Or is it the other way around?

I get all confused with all these genocides, holocausts and what not, very confusing because of the consistent moral standards Turks follow.

Did you even read what I wrote? Is this what you can come up with to counter it? Nice try.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Did you even read what I wrote? Is this what you can come up with to counter it? Nice try.

I read it again and it makes sense now.

You are right, because some people rebelled it is OK to mass deport them on foot to the desert of Syria, massacre them and their wives and children, particularly when you are an imperialist power ruling their homeland

There are rules on how to fight a war, even a civil one. Nobody is denying the Armenians did not rebel, heck they were under subjugation, but that does not justify the means used by the Turks.

 

[Icarus]

I would support the Turks on this one, sparking a civil war while fighting a WORLD WAR sounds crazy at best.

 

[turkaholic]

I read it again and it makes sense now.

You are right, because some people rebelled it is OK to mass deport them on foot to the desert of Syria, massacre them and their wives and children, particularly when you are an imperialist power ruling their homeland.

Oh I see, then your level of comprehension must at a kinder garden level. Because if there was any plan to mass kill them, we would have done it without deporting them.

 

[Armenian Eagle]

Saying that the Armenian population was not loyal is false because since the Young Turk revolution of 1908, the Armenians have been supportive of their government as they hoped for renewal and progress. The World War I was actually the best time for Turkey to carry out their plans, because at that time, Europeans would have been too busy to make any interventions.

The Armenian genocide is not only based on accounts from grandparents or great-grandparents. It is also based on Western accounts, people who witnessed in front of their eyes the deportation and massacre of the Armenians with an intent to exterminate them. It's not like 1.5 million people died "on the way to new locations" which happened to be the middle of the desert.

Look at this account given by an Ottoman Arab (among many others) :
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Martyred_Armenia

And by the way, Turkish efforts of denying it are counter-productive. You should not consider this issue as a stain on the Turkish image, Turkey itself is tarnishing its own image by denying it.

 

[Hussein]

Oh I see, then your level of comprehension must at a kinder garden level. Because if there was any plan to mass kill them, we would have done it without deporting them.

Even some Armenians were supported by Russia to fight against Turks
doesn't give any morality and excuse to the massacres
the desert, killing women and kids....

we need to respect each other

 

[M8R]

The biggest bs I've read is US Senators who have their heads up their ***** trying to somehow recognize Aremenian Genocide.Why don't US Senators recognize Gulf War 2 Iraqi Genocide.

 

[LordTyrannus]

Turks brutaly slaughtered 1,5 million Armenian. Even Women and Children.

 

[Fukuoka]

Signaled for genocide denial