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The silence of the faujis

The writer is right on the money in pointing out the military's shenangians when it came to turning a blind eye to the sectarian monster. Anti-shia outfits like SSP were brought to life during the Zia years and then groups like LeJ were put on steroids during the 90s by the military with generous funding from the Saudis(who in turn were busy fighting to counter Iranian influence).

While it is not the military's job to shape ideology, it has clearly controlled our security and foreign policy over the last few decades. And once anti-shia ideology and its sectarian outfit cheerleaders was allowed to cross-pollinate with our establishment-spawned militant network, monsters like TTP were born.

So yes, the military has to accept a large part of the blame for this fiasco starting from Zia's anti shia Wahabization project, including nurturing of anti-shia religious parties like the JI and militant groups in the 80s, through the 90s to the Musharraf years.

And lets not forget, Zia's efforts also focused on the 'pseudo-islamization' of the military which were later linked to the militant effort suported by anti-shai reiligous outfits in Kashmir in the 1990s. Not surprisingly, for years we have seen extremist sympathizers cropping up in the Army, despite the periodic culling in the last decade, in addition to mis-guided zealot officers like Brig. Khan who are simply pining for the Caliphate to make a comeback!
 
It's not the military's job to solve Pakistan's social issues. The military has distanced itself from politics and it should stay that way.
The military did a great deal to create many of the social problems in the first place; it is only just that, if it chooses not to have a hand in their solution, it submits itself to a public truth and reconciliation commission to recount how this was done and under whose orders.

I feel the Army is doing a commendable job by avoiding making any political or social statements and they should keep it that way.
General Kiyani talks too much for me to accept that.If the Army truly desires to wash its bloody hands it has to keep its mouth shut as well.

this time, only this time, the military is doing a great job of teaching people to live with their problems.
There was Yahya Khan. You know how that turned out.
 
My son didnt flush again.

Damn you Pakistan Army!!
:D

Xeric,
Hardly a time to be facetious.
The core issue is not what Feisal H Naqvi (or somebody else) thinks or says on this subject. Though it will be absurd to dismiss his views out of hand.

The core issues are:
1. Are there some social issues that are seriously affecting Pakistani Society at large?
2. If these issues are allowed to percolate/permeate into the ranks of the Pakistani Military; will it affect the organisation as a whole?
3. Have any of these issues already percolated/permeated in to the Pakistani Military Establishment (now or earlier), or is there an effective "firewall" in place to ensure that is not the case (now or earlier)?
4. If this percolation/permeation has already ocurred, can it be identified definitively and completely; or is it invisible or latent?
5. If this permeation/percolation is identifiable; is there an effective mechanism in place to deal decisively with it and eradicate it in the longer term while controlling it in the shorter term?

Those questions are vital to the efficiency and finally the existence of the Military Establishment itself. Think through them.
The Politicos be damned, Pakistan's Military Estt. will have to grapple with the issues that concern it. Nothing can be farmed out to anybody else in this regard.
 
Xeric,
Hardly a time to be facetious.

Non serious questions requires non serious answer.

Ok, coming towards the serious question;
The core issue is not what Feisal H Naqvi (or somebody else) thinks or says on this subject. Though it will be absurd to dismiss his views out of hand.

The core issues are:
1. Are there some social issues that are seriously affecting Pakistani Society at large?
2. If these issues are allowed to percolate/permeate into the ranks of the Pakistani Military; will it affect the organisation as a whole?
3. Have any of these issues already percolated/permeated in to the Pakistani Military Establishment (now or earlier), or is there an effective "firewall" in place to ensure that is not the case (now or earlier)?
4. If this percolation/permeation has already ocurred, can it be identified definitively and completely; or is it invisible or latent?
5. If this permeation/percolation is identifiable; is there an effective mechanism in place to deal decisively with it and eradicate it in the longer term while controlling it in the shorter term?

Those questions are vital to the efficiency and finally the existence of the Military Establishment itself. Think through them.
The Politicos be damned, Pakistan's Military Estt. will have to grapple with the issues that concern it. Nothing can be farmed out to anybody else in this regard.
Capt, i will request you not no extrapolate, exaggerate or create issues out the thin air.

Naqvi's article is simple. It just revolves around two points;

1) Why dont the military do anything about sectarianism.

2) What if the current wave of sectarianism affects those serving the military (just because the military has shias in it- though this is stupid as it gets, because instead of praising the military that it has men and women from every walk of life and it represents the true Pakistan and that it is the only institution in Pakistan where everyone gets equal opportunity and representation without any reference to color or creed, he still have the irk to make an issue out of this point too, bl00dy mongers)

So there's no need for stretching this lucid issue into the barracks and then automatically imply that the issue is and or will affect those living there and thus your 'percolation/permeation' is just and exaggeration.

So, without getting into the details of the first point as already much has been said on it, i will only reiterate that the Army should not jump into another mess which falls within the domains of the civilian govt. The govt should and must take measures to tackle the problem through its own civilian departments like the Police etc. And then if the situation still goes out of hand only then it should ask the military to intervene.

As this is the normal sequence of actions in any civilized country. The Army already is facing too much shyt because of the decision of one dictator. He went into Balochistan and you have seen where we stand there now. Even when there is no military operation going on there, still many members from your country alone like to make it their raison d'etre to exist here on PDF by flasefying the facts.

Also, as just yesterday CM Shahbaz announced that he wants to induct 4,000 retired soldiers into Police to fight crime, many Pakistanis have already shown their reservations about it.

i myself too, despite being in the uniform oppose such an action. Why should we take all the credit bhai? Why cant the Police mend itself instead and get onto that level where it can do what it is paid for? Shortage of funds is what many site as a reason for Police's incompetence (despite the fact that they have done wonders against terrorism), but what they forget is that Police do have sufficient funds to improve itself, it's only the lethargic bureaucracy that is not willing to improve itself.

Only yesterday i was talking to one of the DPOs about some threat in our area and wanted to warn him verbally about it before the intelligence report reaches him in writing. Can you facking imagine his response; he just told me plainly that as he was on leave so i should tell this to the other SP who has taken charge in his place. This is despite the fact that i was senior to him in ranks!

i mean ofcourse the dude was on leave and he is not supposed to take any action while he is at his home, but damn it atleast one should pay some heed to the urgency of the situation. It was an intelligence report which i was sharing with him, not some issue where someones got his goat stolen. He and i both knew that the report would finally reach the concerned quarters through the mail channels but let's say if had i been in his place and had he been the one giving me the info, i despite being on leave would have listened to the report, one for my own info as i myself can be in danger for being in uniform, and two as it would ultimately be myself (being the boss/DPO) who has to do something about the report once i get back from leave. So the early i am informed about it the better, no?

So that's the actual problem of Pakistan. The civilian dont do it, and then expect someone from the outside to do it for them. No sir, no can do it this time.

So i went off topic, lets come over to my/Naqvi's second point (What if the current wave of sectarianism affects those serving the military).

Well, there were talks when we were hit by talibnization to what if we had sympathizers inside the military. So, we have seen where this has gone so far. No real proofs and nothing really happened as there was no worthwhile penetration inside the military. And those very few (cant even count them on my two fingers) were found and dealt with.

So my question is, if this extremism couldnt affect the military despite the fact that it has been around (we are fighting it) since a decade, how can you or Nqavi assume that this sectarianism will act as a catalyst to something even worse then what extremism could have done to the military?

The immunization of Pak military to such BS is just another proof of our military's strong professional ideology and a professional approach by the Army.

So despite the fact that the military has officers and men from all walks of life to include the rich, the poor, the Muslims and non Muslims and further the shias, sunni, wahabis, beraylavis and what all and what not, this doesnt automatically imply that if someone related to this outside the military would get hurt, those in the military would automatically react at their own and we would then have a mutiny at our hands. That's just stupid to say the least.

Had that been the case, the officers belonging to the poor class should have disobeyed those with richer backgrounds when fuel prices are raised everyday in Pakistan.


P.S. BTW, after watching the kind of response to this lame article, i am forced to wonder that this can be the next attempt by those special kind who would never leave a stone unturned to malign the military. After their attempt to accuse the military to sympathize with some terrorists failed as an external manuevure, now they probably have turned towards the home ground to screw the military one more time by trying to reach military's raw nerve which they perceive to exist, but it dont!

The only thing i am going to say these dudes is that they are going get faceplamed one more time as they were when they tried to to it previously.

P.P.S. Why is it that the writer thinks that it would only be the Army that can be affected with the killings of shia, why not the ordinary Pakistani, the bureaucracy, the Police and the private sector?
 
The writer is right on the money in pointing out the military's shenangians when it came to turning a blind eye to the sectarian monster. Anti-shia outfits like SSP were brought to life during the Zia years and then groups like LeJ were put on steroids during the 90s by the military with generous funding from the Saudis(who in turn were busy fighting to counter Iranian influence).

While it is not the military's job to shape ideology, it has clearly controlled our security and foreign policy over the last few decades. And once anti-shia ideology and its sectarian outfit cheerleaders was allowed to cross-pollinate with our establishment-spawned militant network, monsters like TTP were born.

So yes, the military has to accept a large part of the blame for this fiasco starting from Zia's anti shia Wahabization project, including nurturing of anti-shia religious parties like the JI and militant groups in the 80s, through the 90s to the Musharraf years.

And lets not forget, Zia's efforts also focused on the 'pseudo-islamization' of the military which were later linked to the militant effort suported by anti-shai reiligous outfits in Kashmir in the 1990s. Not surprisingly, for years we have seen extremist sympathizers cropping up in the Army, despite the periodic culling in the last decade, in addition to mis-guided zealot officers like Brig. Khan who are simply pining for the Caliphate to make a comeback!

Why would the military support sectarian outfits? The sectarian militancy increased because of the Saudi/Iranian influence. The Saudis had the initial hook because they were footing a billion a year to support the Mujahideen groups. After the war, members from these groups went back to their localities such as the interior of Punjab etc. and pushed the ideology learned from the Saudis etc. In response, Iranians started funding the shia elements and they too had significant presence in Pakistan due to the ongoing Iran-Iraq war. The Army did not have a direct hand in this so I am not sure if I agree with your theory about this being a military shenanigan.

I must state that your post is mixing various things and has turned into a litany of gripes against the Army. Anti-Shia outfits were created with Saudi funding and had no involvement of the Army as the local groups were directly in touch with their benefactors in Pakistan and in the KSA. This was as a result of the efforts in KSA to increase the influence of their brand of Islam and the impact of this was seen in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gulf states and even as far as Bosnia etc. Pakistan Army's own Islamic bent has clearly been non-sectarian. The troops to this day chant not only takbeer, but nara-e-haidri and nara-e-risalat. This is a basic thing but had the anti-shia efforts been driven by the Army actively, such things would have gone by the way side. To this day, in all of the services, the Shia officers are never sidelined for promotion etc. due to sectarian reasons. I also disagree with your earlier post that the the officers (shia) would conform to the overall thinking of the Army and not question the rising anti-Shia sentiment in certain quarters within the country (this is where you quoted the USMC General).

The fact is that the Army does not delve in sectarian issues internally and stays away from it. The officer corps is very mindful of such divides and actively supports the need to counter such fault lines.

Brig. Khan's case has nothing to do with sectarianism and I feel it points to your mixing up a host of issues and presenting them all to be one. We all know that he was found to be linked to the Khilafa movement as you have correctly stated, but that is something that stands apart from the sectarianism issues. Pakistani society as a whole has turned more "religious", if I may say so, and for some officers to reflect this is not something out of the ordinary. Cases of such type have been few and far between.
 
The military did a great deal to create many of the social problems in the first place; it is only just that, if it chooses not to have a hand in their solution, it submits itself to a public truth and reconciliation commission to recount how this was done and under whose orders.

General Kiyani talks too much for me to accept that.If the Army truly desires to wash its bloody hands it has to keep its mouth shut as well.

There was Yahya Khan. You know how that turned out.

Kiyani talks too much? That is news to me. What do you base this on? He is a person and that too a government official and as such has an opinion. Why would you want him to keep his mouth shut?

On Yahya Khan, a great example of why the Army should not be involved in fixing societal issues. These things need to be addressed early on by civilians so they do not become issues of national cohesion and integrity, which in turn force the armed forces to take action which may or may not go well.
 
Taliban swatter does have a point of zia trying to 'islamize' both Pakistan and Pakitani Army.
 
You may look also the ex Pak army person but your flag was different in profile. Any way I have a question here due to some changes army done from past to the present please correct me if I have the wrong information.
a.When I was a child I saw many documentaries, even the army parades. The language were used in march past or any army parade while moving to left or right etc, was in English since I think 80’s. Later it become in Urdu. You know why and why it has not been changed in Kakul or any military academy to speak Urdu only, why they press to speak most of the time English. Why before 33 years army did not change the rules after 65 war or 71 war etc.
The commands have been changed into Urdu mostly because Zia wanted to promote the use of Urdu (perhaps to increase national cohesion) and secondly, the vast majority of the troops come from rural areas and could relate to Urdu better than English. The official business language of Pakistan is still English, as such it is considered unparliamentary to speak a language other than English at the PMA. The Pakistan Armed forces also use English as the medium for official communication.

B. I am 100% sure on that I saw and here myself the SSG jawan saying Ya Ali Ya Ali when marched. Latter it was changed also after 80’s to Allah Hoo. Now even hardliners are saying to change it to Ya Allah Only and I have a memo mentioning to the army by one of the political government to say Allah Hafiz not Khuda Hafiz when leaving because it’s not right. Why it is changing all these due to hardliners pressure? Are the hardliners are more than normal population of Pakistan?

This changes with the command in the SSG. The command of Brig Tariq Mahmood and possibly someone earlier was responsible for bringing the SSG to the parade with the chant of Ali, Ali. Over time this got changed to Allah Hu. The issue of Allah hafiz vs. Khuda hafiz is once again a societal issue. Many feel that they should say Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz. Similar sentiments exist within the Army too. But the debate between the use of Allah vs. Khuda is that of one between using Urdu or Persian and not one that in my mind linked to Saudi/wahabi influences.

Taliban swatter does have a point of zia trying to 'islamize' both Pakistan and Pakitani Army.

He is correct in stating that. But the disagreement is on whether the Army abetted sectarianism which in my view is incorrect. Also "Islamization" is not a stigma as some here are trying to make it out to be. More and more Muslim populations have gone towards increased religiosity in their lives. Pakistan is not an exception. The challenge in Pakistan is to wean some elements on the right away from militancy.
 
Ridiculous logic.

If the army interferes in civilian affairs, it gets blamed; if it doesn't, it gets blamed.

How about holding the elected civilians accountable for their jobs instead of looking for scapegoats all over the place?


Where is mod Asim Aqil ? I want him to comment on this post..He was jumping high on Maoist thread in regards to Indian Army involvement.
 
He is correct in stating that. But the disagreement is on whether the Army abetted sectarianism which in my view is incorrect. Also "Islamization" is not a stigma as some here are trying to make it out to be. More and more Muslim populations have gone towards increased religiosity in their lives. Pakistan is not an exception. The challenge in Pakistan is to wean some elements on the right away from militancy.

Zia being a dictator - from the Army and knowing that the Army is the singlemost powerful institution in Pakistan, lends itself well to a hypothesis that he would start with this organization and extend it to the rest of the country.
Neither is it far fetched to assume that what social engineering he does to the population in Pakistan will remain firewalled and isolated from the Army. Infact it is now more than evident that there were and are issues of Extremist Islamic ideologies in Pak Armed Forces.

It has also been evident for a while now, that there has been a very active effort to reverse this trend by many generals. It has also yielded fruits. This effort however has been limited to the army and not the rest of the country.

Increased religiosity is fine, but increased religiosity when leads to intolerance of others and diversity is where it starts going downhill. And that is where the issue crops up - the Pakistani populace is being nurtured and cajoled to more close minded view where one type of Islam trumps other types, and considering non Muslims as inferiors. This is the genesis of militancy and sectarianism. This is what has to or should change.
 
Zia being a dictator - from the Army and knowing that the Army is the singlemost powerful institution in Pakistan, lends itself well to a hypothesis that he would start with this organization and extend it to the rest of the country.
Neither is it far fetched to assume that what social engineering he does to the population in Pakistan will remain firewalled and isolated from the Army. Infact it is now more than evident that there were and are issues of Extremist Islamic ideologies in Pak Armed Forces.

It has also been evident for a while now, that there has been a very active effort to reverse this trend by many generals. It has also yielded fruits. This effort however has been limited to the army and not the rest of the country.

Increased religiosity is fine, but increased religiosity when leads to intolerance of others and diversity is where it starts going downhill. And that is where the issue crops up - the Pakistani populace is being nurtured and cajoled to more close minded view where one type of Islam trumps other types, and considering non Muslims as inferiors. This is the genesis of militancy and sectarianism. This is what has to or should change.

What is extremist ideology and please give me an example of extremist ideology in the armed forces.

Its one thing to repeat the mantra "there were and are issues of Extremist Islamic ideologies in Pak Armed Forces.", but for a change, I would like to understand what exactly do people mean by this.

Your next point is actually counter to the above point because the efforts of certain senior officers have been on weaning troops at the lower levels away from what they are being introduced to at the local places of worship etc. There is no evidence of a service wide effort to introduce any specific ideology that is extremist and the vast majority of officers have no linkages to it either. There is nothing programatic afoot to suggest or support your claim.

Lastly, its a very broad stroke to suggest "the Pakistani populace is being nurtured and cajoled to more close minded view where one type of Islam trumps other types" because the majority of the Pakistani population decries and condemns these very views of the extremists who are in a small minority. On any given day, the vast majority of people will condemn extremism. As I had said, the problem on hand is more with "militancy" that some elements in minority have taken up. They use force and violence to push their agenda. The Pakistani population and the military are clearly against this but at the same time are threatened. The fight to take on such elements and defeat them is a difficult one because they use the religious crutch. This requires a concerted effort at the social/religious, economic and law enforcement level.
 
Your last 3 lines summed up all that i was saying. The tolerance level of the silent majority to such violence is much higher today than it was 3 decades ago. You tell me, is it something to do with the gradual extremism mixed in the population or not. Has or is the Pakistani population today far more - i dont know how else to put this so - tending more towards conservatism and fundamentalism(a difference of degree, not type) than 3 decades ago? A Simple Yes or No would tell me what you think of the situation.
 
these sectarian attacks are mostly carried out by ttp and lej and our army is actively fighting against these elements and its like fighting against this cancer of secterianism...so it does not make any sense to consider that army would carry out the role of police is just non sense...
 

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