The secular myth

[VCheng]

No system is perfect, but results matter. Who wants to migrate to any number of secular States compared to those wanting to migrate to any Islamic State these days? That alone says a lot.

 

[Hamza913]

No system is perfect, but results matter. Who wants to migrate to any number of secular States compared to those wanting to migrate to any Islamic State these days? That alone says a lot.

Don't care. Secularism is haram, and supporting it as a government system takes someone outside the fold of Islam.

 

[Verve]

Here are a few more examples.

A certain religion feeds their dead bodies to animals. Happens in Pakistan, no one stops it. But can you do that in UK? Heck No!

Can a Muslim do qurban or slaughter of animal/bird in his house (in private) in UK? No. But hey, isn't religious freedom in private quarters allowed in Secular states?

So Secular states can make laws on what's right (+moral) and wrong (+immoral) irrespective of what one's faith allows, but an Islamic state can't take Quranic Laws (as it imposes religion on others)! Wonderful!

Let me tell you that Pakistani State is far more tolerant of minorities and their ways of life and practices than almost, if not, all Western Secular states. But some of you can't see that.

And as we are seeing now, these secular nations are becoming intolerant towards Muslims. Islam hatred is increasing rapidly in these extra great secular states and what is the state machinery doing about it, it's fueling it by letting media bash Islam.

You people will cry murder if a Pakistani Muslim puts out a video saying 'throw Hindus out of Pakistan' and want Government to stop such people. But in Secular societies, videos and media websites are full of comments 'throw Muslims out'. State does nothing about them. Where's the justice and equality of these Secular states then? Sleeping perhaps.

No system is perfect, but results matter. Who wants to migrate to any number of secular States compared to those wanting to migrate to any Islamic State these days? That alone says a lot.

Results!? Development you mean? You want to compare development of Empires who looted wealth's of so many nations with that of Pakistan!? Really!?

And wait for the real results! Secularism is dying and these states will start persecution of Muslims very soon as many of these secular states are fast becoming Atheist majority. Atheism is breeding ground and is giving rise to white supremacist fascism - it's all coming out slowly but surely.

As for Muslims migrating to the Secular nations, that'll come to an end in not so distant future too.

These Secular states allow immigration because they need migrants for their economies due to low birth rates and aging population. They need people like us so they are not doing us favours as such!!

Now that their economies are not growing as fast (less loot available) they are reducing immigration but it's also pissing off the local whites who are turning atheists. It's only a matter of time before implosion.

It costs appx £1m per child to UK government from birth to the time that person starts earning and paying taxes. For 21 years at least, that individual is living off the state and the bill is around £1m.

How good is the formula then that a skilled migrant like me who relocates, cost the state Zero and starts paying tax immediately when excess jobs are available!? Taxes without having spent a penny on the individual!

So this mantra of 'migrating to secular states' is nothing but a hogwash. If these states didn't need migrants, they can easily shut the door. They need us, plain and simple. The day they won't, there won't be migration.

And btw, what about the liberals living and earning in places like KSA etc? Isn't it hypocrisy that they bash the theocratic states but go there to make a living?

 

[Musafir117]

Secularism is an illegitimate child of religion - Prof A.R. Akhtar

Below is a must watch. First few minutes covers Secularism. And this is aligned with what Iqbal and Jinnah said.

He is unofficial voice of ttp who declare all Pakistan Kafir as they ( we ) adopting Secularism, that's was the reason they destroy Ziarat one of residency of Jinnah.

 

[I.R.A]

Notwithstanding the "difference", please quote any verse(s) from the Holy Qur'an in which Allah SWT has ordered the believers to "implement"/enforce Islam (on others; Muslims or Non Muslims)... Islam/Iman is a voluntary (individual and/or collective) submission and obedience to Allah almighty, it's not something that has to be enforced or implemented by the ruler of the state (or by any group of individuals). No wonder the Holy Qur'an doesn't prescribe any worldly punishments for "offenses" related to religion, or for violation of Haquq Allah.

Sir I am in no way a supporter of forceful conversions, oppression or supportive of unnecessary punishment and injustice. I will stand by my original stance, that Islam in it's true spirit is the best system available both for its followers and minorities, the implementation of Islamic system needs a state of its own, however, Pakistan is no where near what an Islamic state should look like in it's conduct, neither I consider Pakistanis (including me) Muslims who understand Islam properly.

And as far as practicing Islam in your individual capacity goes well sir you may refer to meaning of word "Salaat or Salaah" .......... it is more than ritual worship that we do five times a day. Establish Salaat and pay Zakat, decide their matters between them according to divine guidance given to you etc. are more than matters related to rituals to be performed at individual level ...........

Such views are nothing different from views of traditionalists, they have reduced deen to religion by concentrating on rituals only ..........


@MastanKhan Sir I have nothing to do with NS or his ministers. Or for that matter Imam e Kaba. I don't want Pakistan to remain what it is, mere adding Islamic republic to name doesn't automatically make the rulers competent, honest and just .............. the overall system in Pakistan is that of exploitation .......... you yourself are aware of property pries in Pakistan ......... that is how Pakistan and Pakistanis of today operate ........... lie and cheat and exploit and when the moment comes ....... kill a Mashal khan to not only get a blanket exemption from whatever ills committed in life, but also get promised "Saman for their tharak in shape of 72 virgins".

 

[Verve]

they have reduced deen to religion by concentrating on rituals only ..........

+ 1

Rituals are more important to many than the purpose those rituals are for.

 

[VCheng]

A question to participants here: Can a State accept four marriages for a man but not for a woman and still provide equal justice to its citizens, regardless of gender? Or should such religious matters remain in private between consenting adults, and not be imposed by the State?

 

[Godman]

Merriam Webster's definition of secularism: indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations. Basically secularism is anti-religious.

There nothing Anti-religion about that. Secular countries does not have a state religion and doesn't promote any religion

Legalising Cannibalism is compatible with Islam?
Legalising Homosexuality is compatible with Islam?
Legalising Same sex marriages is compatible with Islam?
Legalising Incest is compatible with Islam?

Its the duty of the Muslim to avoid them not the Government to save Muslims from them

 

[MastanKhan]

A question to participants here: Can a State accept four marriages for a man but not for a woman and still provide equal justice to its citizens, regardless of gender? Or should such religious matters remain in private between consenting adults, and not be imposed by the State?

Hi,

The muslims have 4 wives---because they don't want to commit ZINA---.

Americans have multiple wives as well and so does every other man in other christian nation---the girl friends---and women have boyfriends etc---they are doing the same job as the wives & husbands---so what's the difference----a legal stamp?

Sir I am in no way a supporter of forceful conversions, oppression or supportive of unnecessary punishment and injustice. I will stand by my original stance, that Islam in it's true spirit is the best system available both for its followers and minorities, the implementation of Islamic system needs a state of its own, however, Pakistan is no where near what an Islamic state should look like in it's conduct, neither I consider Pakistanis (including me) Muslims who understand Islam properly.

And as far as practicing Islam in your individual capacity goes well sir you may refer to meaning of word "Salaat or Salaah" .......... it is more than ritual worship that we do five times a day. Establish Salaat and pay Zakat, decide their matters between them according to divine guidance given to you etc. are more than matters related to rituals to be performed at individual level ...........

Such views are nothing different from views of traditionalists, they have reduced deen to religion by concentrating on rituals only ..........


@MastanKhan Sir I have nothing to do with NS or his ministers. Or for that matter Imam e Kaba. I don't want Pakistan to remain what it is, mere adding Islamic republic to name doesn't automatically make the rulers competent, honest and just .............. the overall system in Pakistan is that of exploitation .......... you yourself are aware of property pries in Pakistan ......... that is how Pakistan and Pakistanis of today operate ........... lie and cheat and exploit and when the moment comes ....... kill a Mashal khan to not only get a blanket exemption from whatever ills committed in life, but also get promised "Saman for their tharak in shape of 72 virgins".

Hi,

There is no COMPULSION in ISLAM about the religion. Sharia law---as it wants to be applied is deceitful and fraudulent.

The current law needs to be applied and adjustments need to be made.

 

[VCheng]

Hi,

The muslims have 4 wives---because they don't want to commit ZINA---.

Americans have 4 wives as well and so the every other christian nation---the girl friends---they are doing the same job as the wives---so what's the difference----a legal stamp?

Whether it is a religious stamp or not is none of the State's concern, but up to consenting adults in the privacy of their own home. Have an imam say a few recitals and have two witnesses, or not, that is the only difference. What should it matter to the State? Religion is best left to the individuals.

 

[I.R.A]

A question to participants here: Can a State accept four marriages for a man but not for a woman and still provide equal justice to its citizens, regardless of gender? Or should such religious matters remain in private between consenting adults, and not be imposed by the State?

Sir this needs to be looked into based on what was the need for such a permission. And also to keep in view that it is a permission and not some divine order that cannot be revoked.

In those times there was increasing number of widows, orphans, helpless women and children. The times were such that mostly only men were able to bring the bread and butter to the table, the on going conflicts orphaned many children and women. So the need to permit people get married more than once was a logical solution to provide safety and normal life provisions to those helpless children and women.

Now coming to Pakistan what did we do? Well we made it an obligatory duty and divine right to marry more than once and at the same time none of us ever bothered to father the orphaned children, to take into custody at least one child per family. The state should intervene and make laws to forcefully restrict this polygamy business (unless the circumstances are such that it is necessary) as State regulated the child marriage and divorce etc.

There never was a gender equality angle to this like in case of number of witnesses.

 

[VCheng]

Sir this needs to be looked into based on what was the need for such a permission. And also to keep in view that it is a permission and not some divine order that cannot be revoked.

In those times there was increasing number of widows, orphans, helpless women and children. The times were such that mostly only men were able to bring the bread and butter to the table, the on going conflicts orphaned many children and women. So the need to permit people get married more than once was a logical solution to provide safety and normal life provisions to those helpless children and women.

Now coming to Pakistan what did we do? Well we made it an obligatory duty and divine right to marry more than once and at the same time none of us ever bothered to father the orphaned children, to take into custody at least one child per family. The state should intervene and make laws to forcefully restrict this polygamy business (unless the circumstances are such that it is necessary) as State regulated the child marriage and divorce etc.

There never was a gender equality angle to this like in case of number of witnesses.

That is why the State must not involve itself in such religious matters. It should deal with matters of State, not matters of religion.

 

[I.R.A]

That is why the State must not involve itself in such religious matters. It should deal with matters of State, not matters of religion.

And how is it any different than giving all the power to religious mullahs (which they already have)? State distancing itself from religion in Pakistan would mean huge number of Pakistanis falling prey to ideologies of sectarianism, hate and extremism. Women getting oppressed and jahiliat prevailing.

May be after two or three centuries later Pakistanis would realise that all this time, solution to all of their problems remained covered in a shiny piece of cloth in their own houses on those high racks.

 

[VCheng]

And how is it any different than giving all the power to religious mullahs (which they already have)? State distancing itself from religion in Pakistan would mean huge number of Pakistanis falling prey to ideologies of sectarianism, hate and extremism. Women getting oppressed and jahiliat prevailing.

May be after two or three centuries later Pakistanis would realise that all this time, solution to all of their problems remained covered in a shiny piece of cloth in their own houses on those high racks.

Islam is voluntary submission to the will of Allah. If people do not want to follow it, then it does NOT become the duty of the State to enforce Islam. It is the duty of the State to provide equal treatment of its citizens with justice, education, health and economic opportunities, and let people keep their religious practices private, where they belong.