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The SAUDIfighter Typhoon??

Well, if you say so, but I have my doubts that more bribes were not paid for Typhoons too. In fact that is what was the issue. Anyways, Typhoons are not that good a fighter crafts and are considered by aviation experts as a failed project. Almost all those who were part of it except British pulled out. French went ahead with their Mirage seeing Typhoon as a failed fighter. It is a plane designed for 1980's and is already out of date, with just 2 squadrons of it, Saudis will not have any superiority against Silent Eagles and F-35 of Israel. Not that we are going to ever believe that Saudis are going to stand up to Israel ever. Infact Saudis have colluded and conspired with Israelis to attack Muslims. They offered secured air space to Israel on more than one occasion for attack on Muslim lands.

Really?? The EFT is still one of the best aircraft out there. In fact, second to the F-22 (the F-35 is not in service yet).

Many countries bought the EFT, and not a single one bought the Rafale. The numbers explain all.
 
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Really?? The EFT is still one of the best aircraft out there. In fact, second to the F-22 (the F-35 is not in service yet).

Many countries bought the EFT, and not a single one bought the Rafale. The numbers explain all.

Many people suffer from selective knowledge. Just to pursue their imaginary notion of puppet west oriented evil Saudi Arabia. Just because KSA got it it is now a failed air craft :lol:
 
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It is already made in Saudi Arabia and have seen combat in Yemen. And performed very well. it was fitted on the Tornado that made the air strikes there.

Combat in Yemen? Are you at war with Yemen? Wow! I never knew about this war! No reports at all. Can you please tell me about it? Thanks.
 
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Combat in Yemen? Are you at war with Yemen? Wow! I never knew about this war! No reports at all. Can you please tell me about it? Thanks.

Google Saddah insurgency and houthi rebels.

---------- Post added at 09:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

Also even detailed aspects of this aircraft such as simulators are being made in KSA. This plane is really our ambition.

Advanced Arabian Simulation Company - Your Training & Simulation Solution
 
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Also even detailed aspects of this aircraft such as simulators are being made in KSA. This plane is really our ambition.

Advanced Arabian Simulation Company - Your Training & Simulation Solution[/QUOTE]



dudes... i want to add one thing here.... if ToT is there with the AC then believe me it is not a BAD deal for a Israeli neighbor country.

i don't know what they will give Israel advanced and free, to balance it.
 
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mosa, will you get BVR missiles with this deal. i know Israel would keep a high pressure on the US for not giving you this...

could you basically say what advantages you got by signing the deal with the brit's than with the americans?
 
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I realize that this does not qualify it as a full Saudi fighter not even close. But the amount of ToT and ambition being put on this plane has never happened in Saudi Arabia. This is why i believe that the Typhoon will be to Saudi Arabia what the F-16 is to Israel if not more.
Here is problem. Jet fighter tech transfer to Saudi Arabia, or for any Arabic country for that matter, is like trying to teach Differential Equation course to an elementary school student; the student cannot handle the material so the effort is useless.

There is a good reason why there are only few countries in the world that can engineer fighters, a country has to be at a sufficient level of industrialization before it can take on fighter engineering. License production isn't a fighter jet engineering.

There is no industrialized Arabic country in the world. The only semi-Industrialized Muslim country, Turkey, isn't an Arabic country.
 
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Here is problem. Jet fighter tech transfer to Saudi Arabia, or for any Arabic country for that matter, is like trying to calculate Differential Equation course to an elementary school student; the student cannot handle the material.

There is a good reason why there are only few countries in the world that can engineer fighters, a country has to be at a sufficient level of industrialization before it can take on fighter engineering. License production isn't a fighter jet engineering.

There is no industrialized Arabic country in the world. The only semi-Industrialized Muslim country, Turkey, isn't an Arabic country.


That thinking of yours, is flawed.

Saudi Arabia has some excellent engineers in the field of petroleum and minerals.....i am sure they can get man power for aerospace engineering as well. You have to start somewhere...................the Differential Equation example doesn't fit with your analogy.......
 
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The Saudis have some of the best universities in the region, they've spent alot of money on their human capital in the past decade. To the people blaming KSA of aiding in the Osirak attack, they should know that Iran was known to have offered it's airspace as well. None of the leaders in the Muslim world are saints, I know that the current leadership in Pakistan is very corrupt - it's widely believed that the criminal who is now President, only became President with US assistance. He was absconding from multiple corruption and murder cases in Pakistan and abroad before Uncle Sam decided this guy could be of some use to them.

And in the 80's, when after Osirak the next Israeli target in the Muslim world was the Kahuta nuclear facility in Pakistan, Saudi Airborne Early Warning assets had detected the Israeli strike contingent crossing the Arabian sea and heading towards India. We found out from our Saudi friends at 12AM, and the Israeli indo-assisted attack was to come at 4AM. But these zionists are cowards essentially, and do not normally fight fair fights. F-16s on the other side of our eastern border were detected to be airborne, but when they saw that our Airforce was prepared and in wait for them, they called it off. So, who knows perhaps our nuclear capabilities would have been jeapardized early-on if it was not for that fortunate little bit of providence that our Saudi friends detected the threat and warned us.

No wonder there were some reports in the late 90's, early 2000's(soon after our nuclear tests in 1998), that some nuclear warheads and missiles were covertly moved to KSA. It was also reported in the previous decade, that in military exercises the KSA army practiced under the theoretical scenario that, if Israeli aggression threatened Saudi borders, their army would focus on containing the assault until nukes would be readied. I first heard Zaid Hamid(a famous Pakistani defence analyst) narrating this incident. I for one, and many Muslims around the world, would be very proud and happy if this is indeed true, and our nukes are a part of the arsenal defending greater-Hejaz, the land of our Prophet(PBUH). Politically, this also prevents Israel from using nuclear blackmail - with it having the only nuclear arsenal in that region, intimidating countries around it that in the advent of war Israel would be able to severely damage them.

I think we have a tendency to criticize our Arab brothers, this goes against the Hadith of the Holy Prophet(PBUH), who told us to love Arabs for three reasons. And he also said that Arabs aren't superior to Ajam, nor are Ajams superior to Arabs. The west hates Muslims collectively, it does not differentiate between Arabs and Ajams, it bombs Iraq and Afghanistan and kills millions of innocent civilians in both the Muslim countries.
 
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The Saudis have some of the best universities in the region
Having a few engineers and scientists isn't good enough.

India has millions of highly respected scientists and engineers, yet India as whole doesn't have a strong manufacturing industry to manufacture what these engineers design. Ironically, Indian engineers and scientists do not shine in India, but in the US.

There is no industrial base for Saudi Arabia to manufacture what its engineers put out. This is why a Saudi jet fighter is impossible at this time, and only a handful of highly industrialized nations are capable of building their own indigenous jet fighters.

I will give an example. China has transferred JF-17 technology to Pakistan. Does that mean Pakistan can now go out and build its own indigenous fighter jet that could be called Pakistani? The answer is no.
 
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@Korean Well, a couple of things.

You are right that Pakistan's aeronautics sector is not currently at the level where it'd be able to develop new aircraft entirely on it's own, but most countries aren't. Even countries like Sweden(which develops the JAS-39 Gripen) have to import critical avionics and engines from the US. Only three countries(US, Russia, China) have projects making modern jet engines. The UK used to be big, but now only makes trainer engines, and France's M-88 is an outdated engine with mediocre/older-gen specs. So yes, we are obviously not at that level where we're able to make our own planes.

The one thing that the Saudis have, is an immense amount of money to spend. To give you an example, India launched it's "MMRCA" deal valued at 11 billion, with their media promoting it as the "deal of the century", India only relatively recently got some disposable money to purchase aircraft - their previous major defence deal in the 80's for MiG-29 aircraft had to be paid for in mangoes. So it's understandable why they would make such a big deal out of it. But in comparison, Saudia Arabia launched it's own modernization drive with a $80 billion deal. And they did it without any fanfare or "deal of the century" stuff, because they're used to spending that sort of money, they have foreign currency reserves of over a trillion dollars, which very few nation/entities like the EU, China, and Japan have.

I don't think their aeronautics sector has advanced to the level the Europeans are at, but I do think some research would show that they have made a remarkable amount of progress this past decade. The Eurofighter deal for example, has an unprecidented level of Saudi manufacturing, the Saudis have the money to pay the Europeans handsomely, to set up avionics and sub-component manufacturing in KSA.

And about Pakistan's JF-17 initiative. Rightnow the economy's hemorrhaging badly and the IMF's punitive policies have started to show visible damage, crippling many export-oriented sectors of the economy(textile manufacturing has largely moved out to Bangladesh during this govt's tenure for example). However, the Pakistani Aeronautics Complex has been manufacturing avionics since the late 60's(for the F-104). There have been many avionics projects over the years, for example, licence-manufacturing Selex Galileo radars we used in Chinese F-7's(Selex is a world-renown brand, also makes radars and avionics for the Eurofighter, Panavia Tornado). And given the amount of exposure to western aircraft industries, Pakistan also has a guiding role, Chinese engineers coming to Pakistan to study Mirage III/Vs in the 70's, F-16 Block-15s in the 80's, etc. Even the Chinese-origin F-6s that Pakistan operated, the Chinese aircraft industry designed innovations like gondola-tanks for the PAF, that were later found useful by the Chinese, and incorporated into PLAAF aircraft as well. And the F-7s also recieved hundreds of modifications that similarly rippled out into Chinese fleets as well.

That in no way means that the Chinese industry is dependant on Pakistan, or ever was. But Pakistan's exposure to western aircraft helped guide the Chinese sector during it's formative years. The JF-17 that you talked about - we had a team of 30 western and Chinese-trained aeronautics engineers participating in the project, one of the most visible contributions of theirs was the cockpit design(MMI - Man Machine Interface), and concepts from the JF-17's MMI were later on used in the J-10B's MMI as well. Before the development of the J-10B, the JF-17 had the most sophisticated MMI of any Chinese aircraft(including Chinese J-10A).

So while Pakistan's indigenous capabilities should not be over-stated, they shouldn't be understated either, the facts speak for themselves. Because the PAF had to train to fight an adversary fives times bigger than itself(India), it had to, out of neccessity, either learn to perform and excel, or simply vanish in the dustbin of history. Early on, the British AF training methodologies were dropped and USAF training doctrines were adopted(USA and Pakistan enjoyed a period of excellent foreign relations - they needed us in their SEATO/CENTO anti-Soviet group). So even in the 1965 war with India, the PAF achieved air superiority against a larger airforce, managed to shoot down around a number of Israeli aircraft in their '67 and '73 wars with the Arabs without loosing any aircraft(despite flying inferior MiG-19s and some MiG-21s against superior US-supplied aircraft). And even recently, in training exercises with the Europeans, PAF F-16s got three simulated kills against Eurofighters without any losses on their part. And there was an exercise with French naval Rafales, pitted against PAF F-16s and Mirage IIIs, even the French noted the remarkable proficiency the PAF pilots had with the aircraft, and their level of effectiveness against the Rafale which was a much more modern adversary.

So my point is, we don't make aircraft, but we still do have an impressive record, and some of this experience has been shown to make a difference. JF-17's aim is to go from 50% indigenous production, to an eventual 100% indigenous production, right down to it's radar being manufactured at the Aeronautics Complex facility at Kamra. *Whew* that was a long reply, you raised an interesting point and I felt it deserved a detailed&logical reply.
 
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mosa, will you get BVR missiles with this deal. i know Israel would keep a high pressure on the US for not giving you this...

could you basically say what advantages you got by signing the deal with the brit's than with the americans?


This plane was bought with meteor in mind. We also will be the biggest operators of the Tranch 3 version of the aircraft which allows for the plane to carry the meteor.

The brits knew they had money problems and they would sign any deal unlike fantasy living US. so we got the Tech from them the US flipped over it even attempted to stop the deal because there is some 5% US technology in it but they found a way around that.
 
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Here is problem. Jet fighter tech transfer to Saudi Arabia, or for any Arabic country for that matter, is like trying to teach Differential Equation course to an elementary school student; the student cannot handle the material so the effort is useless.

There is a good reason why there are only few countries in the world that can engineer fighters, a country has to be at a sufficient level of industrialization before it can take on fighter engineering. License production isn't a fighter jet engineering.

There is no industrialized Arabic country in the world. The only semi-Industrialized Muslim country, Turkey, isn't an Arabic country.

That's exactly what i am trying to say. ppl on this forum think that producing things under license means that they can produce things on their own.

Producing things under license is like " Ok give me the parts and step by step instructions and i will put them together" or "give me the step by step instructions to make parts and how to put them together and i will put them together"

Sadly no muslim country can produce a fighter jet on its own.

EDIT and the above statement stands true even without engine manufacturing.
 
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hey Guys, why are you targeting Mosa(S. A), they are moving in right direction, if there are pitfalls, its natural, if the continue towards self reliance in defense n technology field, they can prove to be very potent force in the region, instead of locking horns with SA like we did with USA, and EU, We should work constructively and try to benefit from their progress.

Some of Pakistanis friends are more lethal in their actions than USA+ISRAEL+INdia all put togather.

Regards

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------

That's exactly what i am trying to say. ppl on this forum think that producing things under license means that they can produce things on their own.

Producing things under license is like " Ok give me the parts and step by step instructions and i will put them together" or "give me the step by step instructions to make parts and how to put them together and i will put them together"

Sadly no muslim country can produce a fighter jet on its own.

EDIT and the above statement stands true even without engine manufacturing.

So what is your contribution towards self reliance???
 
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@Korean Well, a couple of things.

......And there was an exercise with French naval Rafales, pitted against PAF F-16s and Mirage IIIs, even the French noted the remarkable proficiency the PAF pilots had with the aircraft, and their level of effectiveness against the Rafale which was a much more modern adversary......

Could tell us abuot it a little more? thanks
 
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