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The Saudi Threat

Let's stop turning this thread into a "Religious" debate.

It's clearly a political topic, so why post extracts from the Quran and Hadees for discussion?

Thread reopened.
 
Let's stop turning this thread into a "Religious" debate.

It's clearly a political topic, so why post extracts from the Quran and Hadees for discussion?

Thread reopened.

Didn't want to but some people here jump on the Takfiri bandwagon and on the click of a button start issuing takfirs by names such as rafizi or murtad and what not. I request the mods to ban these words on the forum.
 
Imran

You should use the report post function - I assure you not just admin but large majorities of forum members do not wish to see Takfiris intimidating forum members.
 
Imran

You should use the report post function - I assure you not just admin but large majorities of forum members do not wish to see Takfiris intimidating forum members.

So you are calling others "Takfiris" who don't buy your propaganda about saudi threat..
 
The Wahabi/Salafi apologists will deny, deny deny - but Saudi Arabia is a threat to Pakistan and all Muslims:


‘Pakistan, Saudi Arabia swapped 2 Qaeda men for detained family’

LAHORE: Pakistan has handed over two alleged Al Qaeda members to Saudi Arabia in an apparent exchange for five Pakistanis detained by Riyadh over drug-trafficking charges, a private TV channel reported on Monday. Ali and Siddique, sons of a top Al Qaeda leader Al-Alawi, were reportedly involved in planning a suicide attack on a Saudi minister. The channel quoted its sources as saying that the Saudi authorities had informed Interior Minister Rehman Malik regarding the whereabouts of the alleged terrorists. They were arrested from the Tribal Areas and handed over to the Saudi authorities on September 18. However, talking to the channel Malik said the release of the five Pakistanis was unconditional, and not a result of any deal. He said the released Pakistanis would return home in three or four days on a special aircraft. Pakistan’s Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Umer Khan Ali Sherzai had said the release of the Pakistani family was the result of bilateral relations between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, based on mutual harmony and common religious beliefs. He had claimed that it was the first-ever occasion in Saudi Arabia’s history of anyone’s release after drugs had been recovered from them. daily times monitor


Note the Saudi knew where in Tribals areas these guys were and the govt of Pakistan did not? What does that say about Saudi Arabia going to lengths to safe guard their Al-Qaeeda?
 
^^^I don't think this means that these militants will get an easy life once they go to Saudi. They can expect a gruelling / torturous interrogation from the saudi secret service for sure. They must have got this intelligence from other AQ operatives they interrogated in Saudi. Its just that they don't advertise their anti-terrorists operations that much. The Saudi govt. (although not perfect) is much different than these religious extremists and nationalists.

More details here...


DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Al Qaeda leader?s sons sent to S. Arabia

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has handed over to Saudi Arabia two sons of top Yemeni Al Qaeda leader Alawi who masterminded the suicide attack on Saudi Deputy Interior Minister Prince Mohammad bin Nayef in Jeddah last month.

Sources told Dawn that Saudi authorities had shared intelligence information about Alawi’s sons Ali and Siddique with Pakistani Interior Minister Rehman Malik during his recent visit to Jeddah and requested cooperation in tracing and arresting the two top planners of suicide attacks.

On the basis of the information, Pakistani intelligence agencies went into action and arrested the two during a raid on sanctuary in tribal areas where they were hiding.

They were brought to Islamabad and, after brief interrogation, were sent to Saudi Arabia escorted by security officials. Getting hold of the wanted persons Prince Nayef announced the release of a five-member Pakistani family arrested earlier on the charge of smuggling drugs into the kingdom.

The operation was completed before Eid and Mr Malik announced at a news conference on the Eid day that the five Pakistanis had been released by the Saudi authorities, but he did not say what had prompted Saudi Arabia to release them.

Alawi is a top Al Qaeda leader from Yemen and his two sons were operating from Pakistan’s tribal areas, managing and supervising terror attack.

In the Jeddah suicide attack, Prince Nayef was injured when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a Ramazan gathering.

Although there is no extradition treaty with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan handed over the two foreign militants bypassing its law to oblige the Saudi authorities.

Syed Rashid Husain adds from Riyadh: Five Pakistanis arrested on arrival in Jeddah with drugs in their slippers and subsequently released by the Saudi authorities are now expected to reach Pakistan on Tuesday or Wednesday. Interior Minister Rehman Malik and Saudi Deputy Interior Minister Prince Mohammad bin Nayef are in direct touch, finalising modalities of the return, Pakistan’s Ambassador Omar Khan Ali Sherzai told this correspondent. The five were expected to be sent home earlier by a Saudi special flight, but the departure was delayed because Mr Malik was not in Pakistan.

The Saudi authorities have expressed the desire that the gesture of sending the Pakistanis returning by a royal plane, a demonstration of goodwill for the people of Pakistan, required that they should be received in Pakistan by none else than the interior minister.

Eight Pakistanis were arrested in Jeddah on charges of carrying drugs. Of them ‘three have been proven to be guilty, both by our investigations and the Saudi investigations,’ the Pakistani ambassador said. These three had been involved in the drug trade for some time and had been to Saudi Arabia a number of times.

According to diplomatic sources, the group got arrested in Jeddah because of a remark recorded in the database about one of them. The immigration authorities found out that he had been coming to Jeddah on a regular basis.

During interrogation the man conceded that he was carrying drugs in his slippers and that seven other members of the group who had already been cleared and were waiting for him outside also carried drugs. This information led to the arrest of the seven.
 
Gentle Ejaz - your attempt at spin is not elegant - of all the Saudi in Pakistan. why just these two? Are these such big wigs that Saudi Arabia knew where they were all this time did not tell the government of Pakistan?? Or is it that they have family who are coincerned about them? To secujre their release, 7 Pakistanis were held hostage - with friends like these who needs enemies.
 
If we don't understand all aspects then are we no better than those who club all muslims together as one monolith? Ofcourse I can't know the specific details in this case. Maybe they were some high level commanders and very important. Maybe the Pakistani govt. has done similar deals in the past but this is the first time it came out in the media. However, placing blanket statements is simplistic and easy and might not necessarily be correct.

The Saudi govt./royal family is guilty of turning a blind eye, they have also actively participated in exporting these religious nationalists out to Afghanistan first to fight communists and second to support Taliban. But most importantly to save their own rule from collapse and project their power in the gulf. But they probably never expected that to backfire in the form of AQ.

The Saudi state as we know it was established in 1932. Before that, the hejaz areas of mecca and medina was cosmopolitan where people from around the world would come and the true sufistic/spiritual Islam prevailed under the Turkish Ottomans. In the eastern part of present day KSA, you had the shias who were mostly argriculturlists and fishermen living their own life also under the Turks.

When the Al-Saud tribe and their allies went around raiding and capturing land from the Turks during WWI, they needed some sort of legitimacy to support their usurped rule in the peninsula. Hence, the agreement with the intolerant salafist clerics from the present region of Najd (near Riyadh). These clerics then were patronised by the Saudi rulers and got entrenched in beuracracy and judicial system and have become a powerful force. Although they do not have mass popular support in Saudi Arabia.
So Islamic rule as defined by the Saudis did not exist before 1950s and 1960s and got even more intolerant and extremist after the 1979 incident.

Also you have to understand that Saudis have had to go through a very rapid transformation from very poor to very rich, for example in the 1950s only 10% were literate, now the literacy rate is 90% (higher for women). It will take atleast a generation or two for the Saudis to mature and get out of the tribal mindset and also to get rid of the hold of religious nationalists and salafist clerics in the govt and get back to the true spirit of Islam.
 
I hope we Muslims can survive the Saudi's maturing process -- I wonder which of us would make comments in the same understanding tone about israel??? How many would buy into that?

See, brother man, I understand where your head and heart is at - but it's Islam at stake - consider, if it was other than Saudis would you be as understanding of the grave error that suffices for confession?al-Munqidh min al-Dalal?
 
We don't need to sit on the sidelines. I expect all major muslim ulemas to use the pen to fight back intolerant aspects of salafist ideologies. Muslims from around the world should go to Saudi Islamic universities to bring them back to the right path. And I am aware of this happening atleast with Deoband in India. I am aware that they have been privately been asking the Saudi clerics to tone down and abolish their takfiri statements against other sects and this was back in late 90s. The 9/11 attacks have put a further urgency and all muslim communities from around the world should actively participate as they have been doing to educate and demolish these perverted teachings and the idea of mixing and using Islam for political ends
 
How this wahabism word started..

1. The word "Wahabi" never been used in ibn Abdul Wahab's life time (his real name was Shaikh Muhammad)..
2. The first time the "Wahabi" word used by British government (after 150 years of Shaikh Muhammad's death), when "Syed Ahmed" after hajj return to South asia and declared jihaad against british government and sikhs.
3. After that british government arrested many Muslims who were thinking about starting Jihaad against British government, and labeled them "Wahabi" and murdered all of them.
4. 2nd time, the word "Wahabi" used again by british government who capture ottoman empire after WW1. They labeled Saud family as wahabis because they also started struggle for the islamic state against British Government.
5. From till that time British/american newspaper use this word number of times. And now avg muslim believe that salafs (who are actually sunnis and follow Hanbal school of thought) are Wahabis, while no one have guts to proof that Sheikh Muhammad ever started any separate sector..
 
The Saudi govt./royal family is guilty of turning a blind eye, they have also actively participated in exporting these religious nationalists out to Afghanistan first to fight communists and second to support Taliban.

ohh really? I thought all madrasses were in pakistan. Does Saudi even have any madrass? Also, how many saudis are teaching in those madrass? I personally found "NONE".. yes, KSA exported many jihaadis to Afghanistan, but again Pakistan, Edgypt, Turkey all done same.. and Tajiks, uzbiks and others also joined the struggle..

Before that, the hejaz areas of mecca and medina was cosmopolitan where people from around the world would come and the true sufistic/spiritual Islam prevailed under the Turkish Ottomans.

You are weak in history, read details about WW1, and british captured whole ottoman empire, then muslims struggle throughout the south asia, iran, ksa etc to save holliest places of Muslims.. and then ksa came into map.. (missed whole gap of 21 years). also just check who actually published

1. Kitaabu l-Kabaair
2. Kitabu l-Imaan
3. Al Qawaaid Al ‘Arbaa’
4. Usuulu Thalaatha

btw just for your information these books were written by Sheikh Muhammad and published in the time of turkish government, with the help of turkish government.
 
How this wahabism word started..

1. The word "Wahabi" never been used in ibn Abdul Wahab's life time (his real name was Shaikh Muhammad)..
2. The first time the "Wahabi" word used by British government (after 150 years of Shaikh Muhammad's death), when "Syed Ahmed" after hajj return to South asia and declared jihaad against british government and sikhs.
3. After that british government arrested many Muslims who were thinking about starting Jihaad against British government, and labeled them "Wahabi" and murdered all of them.
4. 2nd time, the word "Wahabi" used again by british government who capture ottoman empire after WW1. They labeled Saud family as wahabis because they also started struggle for the islamic state against British Government.
5. From till that time British/american newspaper use this word number of times. And now avg muslim believe that salafs (who are actually sunnis and follow Hanbal school of thought) are Wahabis, while no one have guts to proof that Sheikh Muhammad ever started any separate sector..

Twisting the facts eh? Abdul Wahab was a british agent who was used to overthrow the Ottoman Caliphate and bring the Aal e Saud to power, check your facts.

Ibn Abdul wahhab was a pseudo-scholar that appeared under the British influence and was used by non-muslims (British) in their quest to bring the Arabian peninsula under a unified rule of an ally Ibn-Saud family in their bid to weaken the Ottoman empire through the control of the holy sites of Islam.
Ibn Abdul Wahhab issued declarations (fatwa) that branded evry muslim in Arabia who was in dispute with the Ibn Saud family a Kafir Through Bida'a.

As-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zaini Dahlan, Mufti of the blessed city of Mecca, described under the topic "Al-fitnat al-Wahhabiyya" the heretical tenest of Wahhabism and the tortures of the Wahhabis inflicted upon Muslims (Al-futuhat al-Islamiyya, v2, p228-233, Cairo 1968) Hw wrote: " To deceive the Ahl as-Sunna 'ulama' in Mecca and Medina , the Wahhabis sent their men to cities, but these men could not answer the questions of ulama. It became evident that they were ignorant heretics. A verdict about their being disbleivers was written and issued everywhere. Sharif Mas'ud ibn Sa'id , Amir of Mecca, ordered that the Wahhabis shall be imprisoned. Some Wahhabis fled to Dari'yya and told what had happened to them.
 
A little off topic but related to the the lanati Aal e Saud who destroyed Jannat ul Baqee and several other important places when they came to power.

http://insidesectarianism.blogspot.com/2009/09/where-prophet-trod-he-begs-tread.html


In 1924 AD Wahabis entered Hijaz and carried out a merciless attack. People in the streets were killed and houses were razed to the ground. Awn bin Hashim, Sharif of Makkah, wrote, "Before me, a valley appeared to have been paved with corpses, dried blood staining everywhere all around. There was hardly a tree which didn't have one or two dead bodies near its roots."

SAUD FAMILY took over in 1925; they destroyed the historic and most respectable graveyards of Jannatul Moallah and Jannatul Baqee. These are the holiest places that carry the graves of forefathers of the Khatmi Martabat (SAAW), Aal-e-Athaar (A.S.), Ummahaatul Momineen (R.A.) Sahaba Kubaar (R.A.), Tabaeen (R.A.).

The tragic news of this incident was given to the Indian news agencies by a British Press reporter through a telegram and when this news was published in newspapers the whole India turned topsy-turvy with pain because it was a great tragedy for the Islamic World against which the whole Islamic World rose in protest. Farzandan-e-Tauheed not only observed mourning rather they also lodged strong protest against it. At that time i.e. 1925 a delegation of Khilafat Committee comprising Hazrat Maulana Suleman Nadvi, Maulana Muhammad Irfan, Maulana Abdul Majid Badayunvi, Maulana Zafar Ali Khan, and others reached Hejaz so as to talk to the Saudi rulers on this issue. The rulers assured them that no further action will be taken in this connection (Report Khilafat Committee, Page 23).

The said delegation delivered back information to India that graves in Jannatul Moallah had been destructed before they reached there, so much so that even the place of Holy Prophet’s birth was not spared. Later, another delegation from the Khilafat Committee visited Saudi Arabia and sent feedback to India that when our delegation reached Hejaz on May 23 the first shattering news we heard was that Jannatul Baqee has also been destructed. When Saudi rulers were asked, they replied that we consider exploitation of Bad’it and Kufr our duty and would not care for any consideration of the Islamic World in this connection whether they like it or not (Excerpts from the Report of the Khilafat Committee, Page 85). Afterwards this delegation delivered another tragic news that whatever the situation is all Qubbaas of Madina Munawwarah were razed to ground despite promises made by Sultan Abdel Aziz Bin Saud (Report Khilafat Committee, Page 88).

They did not stop here and also destructed all those places and mosques with whom some holy personalities were related in one way or the other. Like Makkah, some mosques in Madina could not remain protected. The mosques razed to ground at that time include: Masjid-e-Fatima (adjacent to Masjid-e-Qaba), Masjid-e-Sanaia (where the Dandaan-e-Mubarik of the Holy Prophet SAAW were separated), Masjid-e-Minar Teen, Masjid-e-Maida (place where Surah Maida was sent), Masjid-e-Ajabah (a place where an important Dua of the Holy Prophet SAAW was accepted) (Report Khilafat Committee, Page 88).

The personalities whose graves were destructed included: Khatoon-e-Jannat Hazrat Syeda Fatima Zahra (S.A.), Hazrat Fatima Sughra Binte Imam Hussain, Shahzada Sulah-o-Aman Hazrat Imam Hassan Mujtaba (A.S.), Beemar-e-Karbala Hazrat Imam Zainul Abideen (A.S.), Hazrat Ibrahim Farzand-e-Rasool, Hazrat Abbas Ibne Abdul Muttalib (to whom Abbasi family belongs), Hazrat Imam Muhammad Baqir (A.S.), Hazrat Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (A.S.). The nine Ummahaatul Momineen whose mazars were destructed included: Hazrat Aisha (R.A.), Hazrat Umm-e-Salma (R.A.) Hazrat Zainab, Hazrat Hafza (R.A.). In addition the mazars of Hazoor’s (SAAW) aunts, Sahaba Karaam, Tabaeen, Hazrat Usman Bin Affan, Hazrat Usman Bin Mazoon, Hazrat Jafar-e-Tayyar, Hazrat Abdul Rehman Ibne Auf, Hazrat Imam Malik, and Hazrat Imam Nafeh were also included in those which were destructed (Report Khilafat Committee, Page 89).

Therefore, a leader of the Khilafat Committee Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar delivered an address at Jamia Masjid Delhi keeping these incidents in view some excerpts of which are: “I am sitting in Allah’s home and consider Him before me and say that I have no personal enmity with the Ibne Saud. Neither my opposition to him is based on personal interest. I would say whatever I have seen and would say clearly whether any party becomes happy or unhappy. Sultan Ibne Saud repeatedly talks about Kitaab Allah and Sunnat-e-Rasool. I found out that they have made the Kitaab Allah and Sunnat-e-Rasool a tool to earn worldly gains (Maqalaat-e-Muhammad Ali Jauhar, Pages 95-96).

It’s our faithful duty to attract the attention of the so-called champions of human rights i.e. Arab League, OIC, ICC, the United Nations, Security Council and others towards the destruction of holy graves in Jannatul Baqee and Jannatul Moallah by observing UNIVERSAL JAANATUL BAQEE DEMOLITION DAY (Youm-e-Inhidam Jannatul Baqee) on 8th Shawal every year.


The important question is why there is such indifference among Muslims to the destruction of the symbols and sites of Islam?

Wa man Yuazzim sha'air allahe fa innaha min taqwa al quloob
 
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