The role of militancy in the rise of atheism?

[Cheetah786]

What Taliban, Pakistanis, Afghans, and Qaeda are doing have nothing to do with "Wahabisim", and the difference between those people and Saudis is crystal clear, I didn't hear about Saudis killing foreign doctors and nurses in KSA, and many cases are happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan that have nothing to do with Islam, yes, there are Saudi terrorists but how many are they? 100? 1000? but how many fundamentalists are in Pakistan and Afghanistan? From my observation they are millions... Saudis bad practices are due to their culture not religion. Unfortunately, Muslims themselves link terrorism to Islam while there are terrorists in every single country, culture and religion.

All I understand from this thread is that some Afghans and Pakistanis are desperately trying to clean their bloody and backward image by blaming it on others.

@Sombozo, even blames it on Islam, well, if you weren't Muslims you would have been Indians.

No offence guys.

Billions upon Billions were poured into Pakistani and Afghani Madrassah by House of saud + G C C Nations and it even continues today plus all Books and other literature was pre approved by the financiers. Direct political interference by house of saud all of sudden now you wanna call it a pakistani problem.
Only the foot soldiers even today are pakistani and afghans top management even know is all Arabs and you are trying to tell us its a pakistani problem really.

 

[muse]

Sir, i know,understand,respect and regard your opinion with understandable logic backed by proven record. However i do refuse to admit blanket statements being made about ANY school of thought. Whabisim is not a centrally regulated corporation that they can simply pull the plug on extremism. Militancy is generated out of many factors, ie chronic, pathetic literacy rate coupled with 50% unemployment,extreme poverty and lack of justice.

Thank you for being kind to me, but I assure that I am open to arguments that are persuasive - not a corporation? Ok, but is it an ideology propagated through a clerical set up? -- Militancy generated out of many factors? Sure, but please to explain why the demands of the militants are all demands particular to a particular school of religious thought?? From which school of thought does the notion that a religious police, arise? From which school does the notion of Shariah as the country's law arise?, From which school of thought does the declaration of Kafir to all who do not follow a particular religious schools thought, arise?

See, Aeronaut - it's very painful and disturbing, I realize and understand - but we must not be amongst those who negate the truth - My country, right or wrong, when right to kept right, when wrong to be set right , is an idea that applies in this case.

 

[Ayush]

you come up with nice threads
@haviZsultan

this has been Happening for a long time. people when they frd up with their religion, either go for conversion or they become atheist.
many hindus(specially low castes) ) change their religion to Christianity or Buddhism.

similarly in this case muslims fed up with Islamic terrorism are distancing themselves from Islam.

 

[T-123456]

"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction"
Newton​

As I have been writing my book, Badal one of the primary concepts I have been promoting is that a single act of injustice leads to a never-ending cycle of violence that is near impossible to stop. In the same way it is smart to assume every action results in a reaction.

Perhaps it's true that until the government doesn't stop being seen as a US stooge and fighting a fruitless war in the North-West the Taliban won't stop their attacks. A reaction to an action, you may say-brutal of course but still a reaction. However there are even reactions to reactions.

In recent years there has been a rise in atheism in Pakistan. I have increasingly come to hear from and personally engage with more and more Pakistani atheists over the years. All have 'converted' from Islam. Most of these atheists cite reasons of intolerance, fanaticism and terrorism as the primary causes for giving up on their faith though there are some who were simply non-religious from the very beginning.

In other words the atheists are reactionaries to reactionaries. Fanaticism and terrorism has made them what they are just as current American policy has turned many into terrorists.

To understand the rise of atheism we must in essence explore the word itself and understand its meaning. Atheism means "Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god." So since the atheists were Muslims before this means they are people who have lost or given up their belief in the existence of God. But atheists sometimes describe themselves in a different way.

"Basically an atheist is someone who has lost his faith in God, just in the 'righteousness' of God, not necessarily his existence. That's how I see myself," says Ali, a 20 year old student.

"How did you become an atheist?" I ask.

"Well it was always the party lifestyle for me from the beginning. Drinking, dancing, you name it. I just never felt the same way about religion as others."

Party lifestyle, I wondered. Almost all of those who identify themselves as Atheists belong to the affluent upper or upper-middle classes."How much did militancy, terrorism and intolerance have a role in you choosing atheism?" I asked. "Is terrorism the reason you left Islam?"

"Somewhat," Ali replies. "I just can't understand why these Mullahs were so intolerant. I can't understand what these terrorists seek to achieve by their violence. When I saw these people killing innocents around me I felt loathing not just for the terrorists but also with myself because I shared something in common with them. I guess I wanted to be as far apart from them as possible. That was part of the reason I chose to be an atheist."

Such reactions to the Taliban and their quest to impose religion on the entire population are rare but increasing. That's why I have always claimed imposing religion never works. In Ali's case it has done exactly the opposite of what it wished to achieve. It has driven a person away from religion instead of bringing him closer.

"I am not trying to offend you but I feel terrorism may kill off Islam," Ali says.

"Of course those are your personal views..." I began, trying not to sound too offended. After all I do happen to be a Muslim, though I am not by any means a terrorist sympathizer.

No, it's true. When you kill innocent people you create a sense of antipathy for your religion. I mean I am not religious but I think it's something the Mullah's should watch out for, people being driven from their religion due to terrorism. Someone has to start condemning terrorism before it causes some massive reaction."

Atheism is an opposite reaction to the strife and the destruction taking place in our country in the name of religion. After our conversation I thought back on Ali's reasons. Maybe it was true. Maybe the terrorism was causing people to loathe Islam, not just within our own society but outside too. Muslims today have a much bigger job countering opinions of them as terrorists.

I have always pondered over this and have thought if we Muslims are just a little more tolerant we can do a much better job countering hate against ourselves. Plus it would leave a better image in the minds of people about our religion.

Another atheist I contacted prefers to remain anonymous. Not strange considering the intolerance prevalent in Pakistani society. He talks about how he gradually grew distant from his religion and beautifully describes the turning points that made him an atheist.

"My friend wanted me to be more religious," he says eventually coming to the problems he has faced as an atheist. "She tried to prove God's existence but failed."

A number of questions shot through my head. "Why couldn't your friend just accept you were non-religious?" I wondered. "Do you think it was right for her to impose her beliefs?" I didn't ask any of them. Instead I encouraged him onwards though I did display my disdain at his friend's quest to impose religion.

"After this she decided she didn't want to be friends."

"So if you're not a Muslim, you cannot be a friend" I said to myself, appalled. That moment I realized just how hard it must be to be a minority in our country. Atheists went against the norms in society and made themselves targets of bias and discrimination. They must have some strong conviction to do that.

It set the wheels in my mind turning again. Trying to impose religion only distanced the person further and further from Islam. Shouldn't we try to abandon this fruitless quest to convert everyone to our thinking and rather concentrate on winning people over with honourable and true intentions and actions?

The conversation carried on and it appeared sharing his atheist beliefs, opinions and conviction's is no easier for him. "At least three friends distanced themselves from me when I shared this," He refers to atheism as "this" unlike other atheists, probably in fear of what it means.

My anonymous friend was too afraid to say it in the fear of offending me somehow but I understood how sad his 'friends not being friends anymore' must have made him. It was like having a black mark on him forever. As long as he was anything but a 'Muslim' he would always be treated differently.

However as the conversation continued he did mention how frustrating things were for him. "I've told a few close friends and they feel repelled. It's worse than being a Hindu or Christian."

As long as intolerance, fanaticism and bigotry remains ingrained in our thinking we can expect to see more and more atheists-again a reaction to intolerance. It proves one thing beyond doubt. That trying to impose religion never works but can rather cause the opposite of what it seeks to achieve.

The purpose of militants has been to bring Muslims closer to their religion but their actions are causing exactly the opposite reaction. Some people, annoyed with the violence the militants are preaching are turning away from Islam despite the guaranteed fact that they are going to suffer bias and discrimination as a consequence.

Meanwhile my anonymous friend says nervously, "I was and to some extent still am afraid of becoming an atheist.

Needless to say I understand the fear of "becoming an atheist". It means you will forever be mistreated and your rights ignored. Pakistani society does not go easy on atheists and Non-Muslims. If atheists have come out and spoken about their experiences it is a truly remarkable feat for them. It takes courage to admit to being something that is despised in society.

Let's hope tolerance prevails and we leave at least the atheists out of the violence that has befallen Hindus and Christians in the past.

Militancy & Intolerance causing a rise in Atheism in Pakistan

^^^^ This is my unpublished article. If you know someone who wants it in his paper let me know. Do comment and rate.

Interesting to see what @muse, @Redbull and @Chak Bamu thinks about this other than other secular members.

How do you convert to atheism?
You can only convert if you believe in something else,so strange statement.

 

[t_for_talli]

Islam now is in the same phase as Christianity was between 12th-16th century
Currently it is arrogant, strong headed, not willing to evolve, enforcing itself to believers/others.
You cannot follow Islam of 7th century in 20th century it needs evolution/moderation

 

[muse]

Some friends have advised Pakistanis to look within for the seeds of intolerance, for the denial of pluralism within Islam and amongst Muslims -- Below is confirmation that they have a strong point that Pakistanis must acknowledge and consider, but we are compelled to ask whether our friends know of the Saudi Input into the Blasphemy laws, whether they know of a certain "adviser" sent from Arabia - You will notice that the sate refuses to act against Sunni Extremists but is eager to act against all who may pose a challenge to the extremists :

Ahmadi literature: Printing press employees accused of blasphemy
By Rana Yasif
Published: February 5, 2013

The four accused are Ahmadis.
LAHORE:

An additional district and sessions judge has fixed February 7 for arguments on the after-arrest bails of four men accused of publishing allegedly blasphemous books about the Ahmadi faith.

Moeed Ayaz, Asmatullah, Razaullah and Ghulamullah, employees of Black Arrow Printing Press, were arrested on January 7 as they loaded a small truck with thousands of books and CDs. The four accused are Ahmadis. Arrest warrants have been issued for the printing press’s owner, who is at large.

The lawyer for the accused, in their post-arrest bail pleas, said that local police had acted illegally against his clients as they had arrested them on the basis of a call made to 15 before an FIR had been registered, as was evident from the statement of the complainant.

He said that even if the complaint were true, his clients should have been charged under Sections 6 (literal distortion of ayah text), 7 (translation or interpretation of Holy Quran contrary to belief of Muslims) and 9 (penalty) of the Punjab Holy Quran (Printing and Recording) Act of 2011 – which carry a maximum penalty of three years in prison – rather than Sections 295B (defiling the Holy Quran) and 298C (an Ahmadi calling himself a Muslim or preaching his faith) of the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC), which carry a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

At their remand hearing before a magistrate, Advocate Chaudhry Ghulam Mustafa, the lawyer for the complainant, contended that the accused were planning to distribute the “blasphemous literature” in various markets. The magistrate remanded them in judicial custody for 14 days.

The FIR was registered on the complaint of Muhammad Tayyab. Islampura police confiscated the material and truck and registered a case against the men on January 7 under Sections 295B and 298C of the PPC, as well as Section 24A of the Press and Publications Ordinance, though the ordinance was repealed in 2002.

Advocate Mustafa, the lawyer for the complainant, told The Express Tribune that his client, who lived in the same area as the printing press, had heard about the material being published and called the police when he saw books being loaded into a truck there on January 7.

He said that he had filed an application with the magistrate seeking the inclusion of Section 295C (making derogatory remarks about the Holy Prophet (pbuh)) of the PPC – which is punishable by death in the charges against the accused. On his application, the magistrate had ordered the investigation officer to proceed in accordance with the law.

Published in The Express Tribune, February 5th, 2013.

 

[Bang Galore]

The heart of a believer knows.

That is what drives so many to kill/persecute others in the name of religion. Their heart knows...... Not that it is much consolation for their victims!

 

[haviZsultan]

Many Sufis would not be bothered by secular / Theocracy debate. But then some might be. There is no fixed rule here. It has much to do with the flexibility of thought and a perspective suitably introverted (sinfulness) and / or extroverted (virtue) as be the need of a particular moment.

True...

Like I mentioned earlier, Sufism is an intensely private and practical path. Talking about it and reading Sufi poetry and philosophizing would get one no where. It is merely beating about the bush. I really do not look forward to having a discussion of what is or what is not Sufi. What one elder in this century or what another saint said in that century. At the core all such discussions are distractions and rather pointless. The heart of the matter is the change within. The re-orientation is important. But before anything else, it is the willingness to change. And for that you have to give yourself up to a Master. That, believe me, is the single hardest thing to do. Particularly for someone who thinks he knows a thing or two, has read a book or two, and can teach a fellow or two. Very very hard to do.

Sufi is a local brand of Islam which helped it spread far and wide in the sub-continent. Wahabis with their killing only caused hatred for themselves.

So you can go on and talk about what Bulhay Shah said, or what a particular school of thought teaches, or what particular philosophy is all about. But to me an engagement would be out of politeness, and not out of a desire to learn or contribute knowledge.

.... ahan.

Sufi texts warn about a quest for political power for accomplished and established Sufis. My own Sheikh sb asks us to keep away from attaching to any political parties or putting our trust in any politicians. A pir-bhai decided to run for elections, and asked our Sheikh sb's blessings. He was told to not repeat this mistake. Consequently, out of the blue and against odds this guy got elected from around Sahiwal as an independent, spent five years in assembly and has never thought of re-election because for him certain values have a higher priority. Spirituality always trumps politics and occupies a higher moral plane. That is how our Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was a politician. Out of necessity and without compromising on Morality. Takes a Sufi to understand in what way Politics and religion are combined. Not religion for politics, or politics for religion, but morality and spirituality above politics. Precious few can do it.

But secularism is a concept not a political party.

Secularism gets a bad rap for various reasons. It is only bad if it divorces spiritual morality from politics. In our country secularism is associated with Alcohol, heterodoxy, anti-religious behavior and what not. Blame whom ever you wish, but this is what it is. In opposition to that practicing Muslims like myself opt for the safe and traditional, because that is how we are going and we can fix our course with minor adjustments. Path of least resistance a-la-1973 constitution.

This is not what it is. Comeon-i thought you could see it. What about 50 Million muslims living in secular lands. Have they becom heterodoxical. That is a cannard. A practicing Muslim can practice better in a secular environment where he will be away from the clutches of mullahs and religious dogmatism.

You have to pay close attention to the rhetoric coming from a fringe and vocal minority who are militant in their approach. They are deluding themselves and others if they think that their prescriptions would create Utopia in Pakistan. The problems lie somewhere else in my view. Most people understand instinctively as to the place of religion within politics. It is by no means the only concern. In the order of priorities it is not even top five when it comes to elections. Some people would always use religion for personal gain, no matter where they are and no matter what religion they belong to. For example, do you really think that TTP wants some Islamic system in the country. No - their leadership is not even remotely concerned with religion. It is only a power game played by some Pathans, only because they can do it using religious rhetoric.

Do note that secularism is about equal rights of all. The west found a solution to the religious problem and the issue of their church. Ireland's GDP per capita expanded heavily after it branded itself secular. We instead spend many millions on ministry of "religious affairs" which hasn't done a thing to stop terrorism.

Still I am not talking of imposing it yet. That can only come when people accept it in the first place. First step is debate on it as a concept that is part of Ijtehad (Islamic advancement, reform, liberalism and scholarly debate)... if it had no place in Islam mu'tazili school of thought would not even have existed. Ibn Rushd would not have promoted it and be known as the father of secularism.

We basically invented secularism-the west stole it and now after giving the west something great we look down at that great thing. This is no logic. Be proud of our history.

Obsessing about secularism would do nothing for us. The source of our troubles is elsewhere. The most secularism can do for us is introduce more instability in an already charged environment. A bunch of hyperventilating Mullah-types would make it another cause for the sake of Islam, and give a call of jihad against irreligious alcohol chugging conspirators. The cause of secularism is best left by the side for now. We are busy finding answers to questions that we have purposely avoided so far. These must be answered. The process would determine what we do with secularism next. Not vice versa.

I am not even talking about imposing it-especially without consent from the population of Pakistan. Only a hero of Pakistan can do it. Ataturk had a major list of military victories and medals when he did it. Lets start with a step by step process. Lets start with debate on it. Then move to something else. The average Joe in Pakistan gets angry when he hears the word secularism. It is a concept in its nascent state here. People are thinking about it as yet.

In any case this thread is about a separate concept, atheism and militancy's role in increasing it as a reaction. It is necessary to disengage secularism and atheism just as it

 

[haviZsultan]

Thank you for being kind to me, but I assure that I am open to arguments that are persuasive - not a corporation? Ok, but is it an ideology propagated through a clerical set up? -- Militancy generated out of many factors? Sure, but please to explain why the demands of the militants are all demands particular to a particular school of religious thought?? From which school of thought does the notion that a religious police, arise? From which school does the notion of Shariah as the country's law arise?, From which school of thought does the declaration of Kafir to all who do not follow a particular religious schools thought, arise?

See, Aeronaut - it's very painful and disturbing, I realize and understand - but we must not be amongst those who negate the truth - My country, right or wrong, when right to kept right, when wrong to be set right , is an idea that applies in this case.

I agree. Ignoring an issue can only make it worse. Also the behavior of Mr Wahab is questionable. How can a 20th century mass murderer know about Islam rather than people who lived at the time of the Prophet. That man defiled the prophets grave, destroyed female feotuses, ravaged cities with reckless abandon and operated with the full support of the British. What makes him someone we must respect rather than philosophers of the stature of Ibn Khaldun, Ibni Sina and Ibn Rushd (all secular)... these people are responsible for the thought on which the most advanced societies are based today and we still do not understand their message? Islam was victorious not because it framed Ahmedis on blasphemy charges but because we won others with love and respect. We are at the cusp of a major change I believe.

Terrorism should have taught us that religion mixed with politics is highly explosive and has the potential only to destroy.

 

[muse]

HaviZ

What is this victory of Islam, you mention?

 

[Cherokee]

Terrorism should have taught us that religion mixed with politics is highly explosive and has the potential only to destroy.

And it always fulfill its potential . South Asia badly needs something like the French system of Laïcité . Extreme and Paranoid level of Separation between Church and State . They do not allow Education system to be even touched by Church . Exactly what we need around here !!

 

[haviZsultan]

HaviZ

What is this victory of Islam, you mention?

It was basically our inventions-paper gunpowder use... science, technology, astronomy, algebra... furthermore the ability to rule half the known world couldn't have taken place without that. That is all I meant? What did you think? Did I tell you, you and Irfan Baloch are my favorite posters.

 

[muse]

Reminder -- Think of all the great scholar, academicians and scientists in t Islamic tradition, a tradition that laid the intellectual foundation of Renaissance in Europe - Recall they were all Madressah educated, Recall the schools of Baghdad and Tus, after all, education itself was either run by Churches and Madaress.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water? It may come to that

It was basically our inventions-paper gunpowder use... science, technology, astronomy, algebra... furthermore the ability to rule half the known world couldn't have taken place without that. That is all I meant? What did you think? Did I tell you, you and Irfan Baloch are my favorite posters.

I was not sure what you meant - to my mind the victory of Islam is offering of Mercy, of salvation - but that's for another day - and you are kind to me, I do appreciate, too bad we could not converse some time in the near past when I was here more often, I am being greedy like a nadeeda, I missed and miss being here

 

[Chak Bamu]

That is what drives so many to kill/persecute others in the name of religion. Their heart knows...... Not that it is much consolation for their victims!

You really do not know what I am talking about. This has to do with religious experience and knowledge of God as a source of conviction against doubt.

This has nothing to do with your notions of how things happen. You would have no idea. You are ill-equipped to discuss in this matter, you have only crude ideas and an inadequate perspective when it comes to particulars of spirituality in Islam. Better hang up and try back later when you have atleast a rudimentary knowledge of what is being discussed here.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Seriously?

I grew up in Hong Kong, and my parents are Chinese Buddhists.

I am an Atheist simply because I haven't had any inclination to pick up a religion so far. No "crisis" of reasoning or emotions or whatnot, I simply haven't been bothered as of yet.

Do you have a working philosophy that you sometimes ponder about in relation to life's over-arching themes? An idea (or lack of) God, The meaning of life, confronting death, the problem of good and evil, etc...?

If you do, you have religion. Maybe not an established religion, but religion nonetheless.