The Question of "Shia Genocide" in Pakistan.

[sbh02]

Coming to Pakistan, we are engaged in a "war against terrorism". The killings of Shia's although a very real issue whose importance should not be undermined, does not constitute a "genocide" because Shia's still enjoy a certain level of protection from the state. Genocides happen where a party is completely reliant upon another for its protection, and the latter uses this leverage to eradicate the former. Although groups like Laskhar e Jhanvi at times embarrassingly act with impunity, the Pakistani armed forces, police forces still on the whole protect Shia's albeit with a lot of failures as can be seen from the number of attacks on Shia's in the OP. Nevertheless it is the presence of the Pakistani state which prevents groups like the LeJ from walking in and killing and/or pushing out most or all of Shia's from specific regions of Pakistan. A "genocide" in my opinion would happen where LeJ hypothetically speaking conquers Quetta where upon the Shia populace of that city is totally reliant on the LeJ for their protection. If the LeJ subsequently uses this leverage to kill Shia's in an organized campaign, that is a genocide.

I do not use the word "genocide" to refer to Shia killings.

However, it is wrong to suggest that if the Pakistan Army/forces weren't there, Shias would be exterminated.

Parachinaris know how to protect themselves and fight. Turis are battle-hardened people, that only disarmed at the request of the state. If they pick up arms again, they can easily destroy the TTP or whoever comes in their way.

 

[Zibago]

I do not use the word "genocide" to refer to Shia killings.

However, it is wrong to suggest that if the Pakistan Army/forces weren't there, Shias would be exterminated.

Parachinaris know how to protect themselves and fight. Turis are battle-hardened people, that only disarmed at the request of the state. If they pick up arms again, they can easily destroy the TTP or whoever comes in their way.

No thanks no more armed militias

 

[Ocean]

As far as I understand it, what constitutes "genocide" is not understood by numbers but by intent. For example the Srebrenica massacre resulted in the deaths of 7000-8000 Muslims but was constituted as a "genocide" by the ICJ because the Serbs committed the massacre with the clear intent of eradicating Muslims from that specific region of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Meanwhile a similar or slight less number of Muslim civilians were killed in Sarajevo during the Serb bombing of the city, but that did not constitute a "genocide" because it was part of an armed conflict, wherein Serbs were trying to conquer the city but Bosnian government (Muslim predominantly) were resisting them, and the civilians died as a consequence of this fighting.

Coming to Pakistan, we are engaged in a "war against terrorism". The killings of Shia's although a very real issue whose importance should not be undermined, does not constitute a "genocide" because Shia's still enjoy a certain level of protection from the state. Genocides happen where a party is completely reliant upon another for its protection, and the latter uses this leverage to eradicate the former. Although groups like Laskhar e Jhanvi at times embarrassingly act with impunity, the Pakistani armed forces, police forces still on the whole protect Shia's albeit with a lot of failures as can be seen from the number of attacks on Shia's in the OP. Nevertheless it is the presence of the Pakistani state which prevents groups like the LeJ from walking in and killing and/or pushing out most or all of Shia's from specific regions of Pakistan. A "genocide" in my opinion would happen where LeJ hypothetically speaking conquers Quetta where upon the Shia populace of that city is totally reliant on the LeJ for their protection. If the LeJ subsequently uses this leverage to kill Shia's in an organized campaign, that is a genocide.

Always a pleasure to read your posts.
Also the most number of individuals' level target killings ;i.e, singled out targeting of professionals doctors etc from shia community, have happened in karachi a part of sindh ruled by a party Ppp whose head is a Shia? So are we saying Shias themselves were behind Shia genocide?

 

[sbh02]

No thanks no more armed militias

If no more armed militias, then the state needs to protect the people of Parachinar against terrorists, which they have been failing to do.

State policy should prevail.. period..

If it is Pakistan's policy to support Irani influence in Syria, support it.. If it says no.. don't support it..

And don't try to put your words in my mouth.. I have never said that state doesn't have any responsibility to protect anyone... What I am saying is that state should not allow the ones who enter in Pakistan after fighting foreign wars.. whether the are coming back from Afghanistan, or Syria, or Yemen. Do I need to elaborate further?

Parachinaris are my Pakistani brothers.. I felt pain when I saw them weeping for their loved ones.. But I hate those people who are coming back from any country after fighting others' wars... They should be sent back to the respective countries, for which they have fought.. There shouldn't be any place for them in Pakistan..

Same principle applies to ex-Pakistanis coming back to Pakistan from Afghanistan.. Put them in Jail for long long time if no other country is ready to take them as its citizen..

Can state policy be wrong?

Would you support a state policy that does not provide adequate protection to innocent civilians in a certain city, but provides them for the Afghan Taliban, a militant group?

What about state policy on Mullah Abdul Aziz, the Lal-Masjid cleric?

 

[Ocean]

Arre bhai, mein zyada lambi guftugu nahin karna chahta, magar ye Shia jo Shaam ja rahe hein, ye Hazrat Zainab (Rasool (S) ki nawasi) ke mazaar ke tahufuz ke liye ja rahe hein; jis per hamla ho raha he.

Agar Masjid-Nabvi ya Kabah pe hamla ho, to saare Musalman uth kar uske tahafuz ke liye jainge, unko hukoomat se ijazat lene ki zaroorat nahin. Kya hamein un Musalamanon ki bhi muzamat karni chahye jo Allah ke ghar, ya Allah ke Rasool (S) ke ghar ki tahafuz karein? Nahin.

Aap mujhe batao, dobara pooch raha hoon, kitna Shia logon ne dehshatgard hamle kiye hein Pakistan mein, chahe wo Shaam ya Iraq se hi waapas kyun na aain hon? Aaapko kya faraq parhta he ke wo Shaam mein kya kar rahe hein, agar wo Pakistan mein theek hein, to phir kya masla he?

Hazrat zainab ka mizar Khana kabah ya masjid e nabvi hai?

 

[sbh02]

Hazrat zainab ka mizar Khana kabah ya masjid e nabvi hai?

The concept is the same bhai.

If you need permission to go to Syria to protect the Prophet(S)'s family's shrines; you need state permission to go to the Holy Kabah and Masjid-un-Nabvi too. But I assure you people will not get state permission for that.

 

[PakSword]

If no more armed militias, then the state needs to protect the people of Parachinar against terrorists, which they have been failing to do.



Can state policy be wrong?

Would you support a state policy that does not provide adequate protection to innocent civilians in a certain city, but provides them for the Afghan Taliban, a militant group?

What about state policy on Mullah Abdul Aziz, the Lal-Masjid cleric?

Even if the state policy is temporarily wrong, it doesn't justify playing in the hands of others..

Mullah Abdul Aziz should be put behind the bars ASAP.. No question about it.. But taking arms in hands to define your own state policy is something not acceptable.

By the way, it was state which put Mullah Abdul Aziz back to square one 10 years back? Now he is a toothless beast..

 

[sbh02]

Even if the state policy is temporarily wrong, it doesn't justify playing in the hands of others..

Mullah Abdul Aziz should be put behind the bars ASAP.. No question about it.. But taking arms in hands to define your own state policy is something not acceptable.

By the way, it was state which put Mullah Abdul Aziz back to square one 10 years back? Now he is a toothless beast..

What toothless beast? Banned militant organizations operate freely in Pakistan, and people like Mullah Abdul Aziz air their views openly. They support the likes of al-Qaeda and ISIS.

I cannot believe that people are trying to justify the violence of ISIS, al-Qaeda and other groups against Pakistani Shias. These groups and their mindset will destroy Pakistan, but Pakistanis on PDF will have the same mindset.

That's like saying, it is the fault of the person who got raped for getting raped.

 

[Ocean]

What toothless beast? Banned militant organizations operate freely in Pakistan, and people like Mullah Abdul Aziz air their views openly. They support the likes of al-Qaeda and ISIS.

I cannot believe that people are trying to justify the violence of ISIS, al-Qaeda and other groups against Pakistani Shias. These groups and their mindset will destroy Pakistan, but Pakistanis on PDF will have the same mindset.

That's like saying, it is the fault of the person who got raped for getting raped.

He is not justifying shia killings, through and through you have been putting words in pakswords mouth.
And even if mullah burqa was not around those pakistanis who have gone to fight in syria would still have gone and became cannon fodder for iran.
But honestly i dont get why they did not even book mullah burqa for hate speech and pledging allegiance to isis ? I mean what is the fear? I think our agencies are keeping watch on him as it was reported earlier , so he may not be engaged in terror activities any more but he would surely be involved in brainwashing people, which again is a threat.
Sometimes i really want to find out who is backing abdul aziz

 

[drmeson]

I don't want to take part in this discussion, But i want to say what you've posted here is a lie Mr.liar. The link you've posted is about 1988 executions of "People's Mujahedin of Iran" terrorist group members after they sided with Saddam Hussein and attacked their own country during Iran-Iraq war. People's Mujahedin of Iran is a Marxist-Islamist political–militant organization and their religion is Shia Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Mujahedin_of_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_political_prisoners

So your "30,000 Sunnis killed by Khomeini" is a lie and pure bullshit, Also if you want to blame others for your own shit at least you should get your facts right.

Let them ... do... whatever they do to each other. Not our Fight. Stay away.

Sorry pakistani guys for posting in your internal issues thread. Peace out

 

[Zibago]

If no more armed militias, then the state needs to protect the people of Parachinar against terrorists, which they have been failing to do.



Can state policy be wrong?

Would you support a state policy that does not provide adequate protection to innocent civilians in a certain city, but provides them for the Afghan Taliban, a militant group?

What about state policy on Mullah Abdul Aziz, the Lal-Masjid cleric?

If people will elect clowns what else do you expect?

 

[PakSword]

What toothless beast? Banned militant organizations operate freely in Pakistan, and people like Mullah Abdul Aziz air their views openly. They support the likes of al-Qaeda and ISIS.

I cannot believe that people are trying to justify the violence of ISIS, al-Qaeda and other groups against Pakistani Shias. These groups and their mindset will destroy Pakistan, but Pakistanis on PDF will have the same mindset.

That's like saying, it is the fault of the person who got raped for getting raped.

Yaar, do you have reading or comprehension problems? Seriously, it feels like talking to a dead man..

Let them ... do... whatever they do to each other. Not our Fight. Stay away.

Sorry pakistani guys for posting in your internal issues thread. Peace out

The above reply from a supposed Irani should be enough for your eye opening..

@sbh02

He is not justifying shia killings, through and through you have been putting words in pakswords mouth.
And even if mullah burqa was not around those pakistanis who have gone to fight in syria would still have gone and became cannon fodder for iran.
But honestly i dont get why they did not even book mullah burqa for hate speech and pledging allegiance to isis ? I mean what is the fear? I think our agencies are keeping watch on him as it was reported earlier , so he may not be engaged in terror activities any more but he would surely be involved in brainwashing people, which again is a threat.
Sometimes i really want to find out who is backing abdul aziz

You never know if he is working as a honey pot.. Tried and tested method to catch sympathizers. People who come and attend his sermons are the ones who should be kept under watch..

I shouldn't have mentioned it, but since some people have problems understanding state policies vs individual policies..

 

[Itaalvi]

Genocide or no genocide, we need to erase anti-shia sectarian outfits like Lashkar-e-Jhangwi etc. These organizations only target Shias but also act as a tool for foreign enemy agencies.

I don't know why our established has not gone all out against these barbarians?

Lashkar-e-Jhangwi already finished by Punjab police.

 

[Stealth_Strike]

What is the fight between Shias and muslims in Pakistan ? why are they being targeted in many of the attacks in Pakistan ?

 

[Itaalvi]

I have collected a database of all terrorism incidents against or suspected against Shia of Pakistan. The database has been meticulously collected while sifting through news reports of the last 17 years. We counted about 1850 Deaths over 17 years.
There is a certain margine of error.
Note that many incidents also had victims from non shia communities, but we added in the list as many victims were shia, such as Parachinar Market bombings which has been a regular incident over the years.
If we do the maths and add the numbers. The question is, does this look like "Shia Genocide"?


P.S. It took us a few days to varify and Re-Varify news reports and build this post. Please don't pollute the comment section with sectarianism. Discuss with reasoning.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

8th June 2003 : 11 Hazara Shia police cadets killed in Quetta.

4th July 2003 : 47 Shia Killed in a Mosque attack in Quetta.

28th February 2004 : 3 Shia Killed in bombing in Rawalpindi Mosque.

2nd March 2004 : 42 Shia Killed when a procession was Suicide bombed in Quetta.

7th May 2004 : 15 Shia Killed in a Shia Madressa bombing in Karachi.

14th May 2004 : Six Shia of same family gunned down in Lahore.

31 May 2004 : 16 Shia Killed in Imam Bargah Bombing in Karachi.

21 September 2004 : 3 Shia family members killed in Dera Ismael Khan.

1st October 2004 : 25 Shia killed in Sialkot in a Mosque bombing.

10 October 2004 : 4 Shia Killed in a Mosque bombing in Lahore.

8th January 2005 : 10 People killed in Shia Sunni riots in Gilgit.

25 May 2005 : 6 Shia killed by IED in Waziristan.

9th February 2006 : An incident in Hang sparked Ashura day violence throughout the country. 35 Deaths reported, some sunni , some Shia.

14th July 2006 : 2 Shia target killed in Karachi.

6th October 2006 : 17 Killed in Shia Sunni clashes in Orakzai Agency.

27 January 2007 : 13 Shia Killed in Mosque bombing in Peshawar.

11 April 2007 : 35 Killed in Shia Sunni clash in Kurram Agency.

4th August 2007 : 9 Killed in a car Bomb explosion in Kurram agency. It was not clear how many were Shia.

19 November 2007 : 94 killed during Shia sunni clashes in Parachinar.

17th January 2008 : 12 Shia killed in mosque Bombing in Peshawar.

16 June 2007 : 4 Shia Killed in a Mosque Bomb blast in Dera Ismael Khan.

7 - 18 August 2008 : 287 People Killed during Clashes between Shia Turi and Bangash Tribes of Kurram agency.

10th January 2009 : 26 People Killed during Shia Sunni fight in Hangu.

26 January 2009 : 1 Hazara Shia leader target killed in Quetta.

5 February 2009 : 32 Shia Killed in a Mosque bombing in Dera Ghazi Khan.

20 February 2009 : 30 Shia Killed in a Funeral bombing in Dera Ismael Khan.

05 April 2009 : 22 Shia Killed in a congregation Bombing in Chakwaal.

29 July 2009 : 2 Shia killed in IED blast in Shangla.

8 September 2009 : 4 Shia killed in Orakzai school attack.

28 December 2009 : 42 Shia Killed on a procession Bombing in Krachi.

18 July 2010 : 1 Shia Killed in terrorist attack in Sargodha.

03 August 2010 : 01 Shia leader killed in Karachi. Resulting riots killed 35 people.

17 August 2010 : 01 Shia cleric killed in Karachi.

01 September 2010 : 30 Shia killed in a bomb blast during Shia procession in Lahore.

03 September : 73 Shia killed in Suicide bombing of Shia procession in Quetta.

10 December 2010 : 16 Shia Killed during an attack on a Shia run hospital in Hangu.

25 January 2011 : 13 Shia Killed in Lahore during a bomb blast in procession.

18 May 2011 : 7 Shia Hazara target killed in Quetta.

31 August : 11 Shia Hazara Killed in a Mosque bombing in Quetta.

20 September : 26 Shia Pigrims target killed on Pakistan Iran border.

23 September : 3 Shia Hazara Killed in Mastung.

1 January 2012 : 1 Shia cleric target killed in Karachi

7 January 2012 : 4 Killed during Shia Sunni riots in Gilgit.

25 January 2012 : 3 Shia Lawyers target killed in Karachi.

17 February 2012 : 41 People die including Shia in market bombing in Parachinar.

28 February 2012 : 18 Shia killed in a Bus in Kohistan.

28 June 2012 : 14 Shia Hazara killed in Quetta.

06 July 2012 : 18 Shia Pilgrims killed in Turbat .

16 August 2012 : 20 Shia killed in a Bus in Mansehra.

17 August 2012 : 2 Shia students killed in Karachi when their bus was attacked.

27 August 2012 : 3 Shia killed in Quetta.

1 September 2012 : 7 Shia Hazara target Killed in Quetta.

15 September : 15 people killed in Parachinar market bombing.

26 September : 01 Shia cleric killed in Quetta.

16 October 2012 : 4 Shia Killed in Quetta.

06 November 2012 : 01 Shia cleric killed in Quetta.

06 November 2012 : 03 Shia Hazara killed in Quetta.

01 January 2013 : 01 shia cleric killed in Chiniot.

09 January 2013 : 01 Shia school teacher target Killed in Karachi.

01 February 2013 : 20 Shia killed in a mosque bombing in Hangu.

18 February 2013 : 02 Shia target killed in Karachi.

03 March 2013 : 45 Shia killed in a mosque bomb blast in Karachi.

20 June 2013 : 15 Shia killed in mosque bombing in Peshawar.

11 July 2013 : 02 Shia killed in Peshawar mosque bomb blast.

15 July 2013 : 04 Shia Hazara killed in Quetta firing.

27 July 2013 : 60 people killed in a maket Bombing in Parachinar , including Shia.

06 September 2013 : 07 Shia killed in firing in Jassoki.

15 November 2013 : 08 people killed in a Shia Sunni clash in Rawalpindi.

17 December 2013 : 03 Shia killed in an Imam Bargah bombing in Rawalpindi.

01 January 2014 : 03 Shia Pilgrims killed in a bus bombing i Quetta.

08 June 2014 : 24 Shia pilgrims killed in a Bus attack in Quetta.

09 January 2015 : 08 Shia killed in an Imam Bargah bombing in Rawalpindi.

30 January 2015: 53 Shia killed in Mosque bombing in Shikarpur.

13 February 2015: 19 Shia killed in a Mosque firing in Peshawar.

13 May 2015 : 46 Shia Ismaili killed in a Bus attack in Karachi.

13 December 2015 : 23 people killed in Parachinar Market bombing.

12 November 2016 : 52 people including Shia killed in shah noorani shrine blast in Khuzdar.

20 January 2017 : 25 people including Shia killed in market bombing Parachinar.

16 February 2017 : 88 people killed including Shia in lal Shahbaz Qalandar shrine bombing.

31 March 2017: 25 Shia killed in a mosque bombing in Parachinar.

23 June 2017 : 75 people including Shia Killed in a Market bombing in Parachinar.

I want to clarify one thing all above Shia killing minus the Hazara (which is designed to create ethnic tension and foreign hand proved) rest all killings were mostly targeted against those extremist who used to gave abusive sermons against other sect and Sahaba R.A.

Note: I am not justifying any act of aggression hence very happy that L.J is no more and most of it's operative and commander killed in encounters.