The Question of Indian MIRV

[Safriz]

Also, how do you know the dimensions of arihant's launch tube ?

This image was created by me from a video grab of the only K-4launch video. I only compared length and breadth y ratio proportion while keeping in view certain existing reports by Indian sources.
The missile is 10 times longer than it's wide. So if we believe the many reports saying that K-4 is 1.3 meters wide then it will be 13 meters tall? which is sensible dimension for an SLBM. But too narrow for MIRV.
But if we blive that the missile is 2 meter wide as thats the norm for all existing MIRV SLBMs in the wold then 1:10 means it will have to be 20 meters tall? which is impossible,

 

[gslv mk3]

This image was created by e from a video grab of the only K-4launch video. I only compared length and breadth y ratio proportion while keeping in view certain existing reports by Indian sources.
The missile is 10 times longer than it's wide. So if we believe the many reports saying that K-4 is 1.3 meters wide then it will be 13 meters tall? which is sensible dimension for an SLBM. But too narrow for MIRV.
But if we blive that the missile is 2 meter wide as thats the norm for all existing MIRV SLBMs in the wold then 1:10 means it will have to be 20 meters tall? which is impossible,

You're measuring it's length and width from a grainy photograph ?

My point is that the Arihant may have 2m dia launch tubes. The K-15 Canister shows the same.

 

[Safriz]

You're measuring it's length and width from a grainy photograph ?

My point is that the Arihant may have 2m dia launch tubes. The K-15 Canister shows the same.

I went to the extreme of the grains, taking into account the last possible grain . Width to length proportion is 1:10 and it's impossible for the missile to be 2 meters wide, or it will have to be 20 meters tall. Simple stipulation not rocket science.
A 1.3 metr wide mssile can be MREV not MIRV same as Polaris was, but there is no evidence of India having a W-58 sized warhead

 

[gslv mk3]

I went to the extreme of the grains, taking into account the last possible grain .

Again, not a reliable measurement by any means.

 

[Shajida Khan]

india does not have submarines large enough to be able to fire a 50 ton missile you are proposing.

Trident II weighs 60 tonnes actually and is fired from USS Ohio class subs (displacement 18 tonnes when submerged) with a capacity for 24 Trident II missiles.

India is developing Arindham class sub for this purpose only. It is expected to be much much larger than Arihant and should be able to accommodate 4 A-6 SLBMs (will be called K-5 most probably).

BTW, may I ask, how do you think a sub launches a SLBM? Because you comment 'sub will tear apart because of simple laws of physics' seems weird.

FYI, China has tested JL-2 SLBM (Weighing 42 tonnes) from a Golf class diesel electric sub with a displacement of mere 3600 tonnes. Arihant has a displacement of 6000 tonnes.

 

[Safriz]

Trident II weighs 60 tonnes actually and is fired from USS Ohio class subs (displacement 18 tonnes when submerged) with a capacity for 24 Trident II missiles.

India is developing Arindham class sub for this purpose only. It is expected to be much much larger than Arihant and should be able to accommodate 4 A-6 SLBMs.

BTW, may I ask, how do you think a sub launches a SLBM? Because you comment 'sub will tear apart because of simple laws of physics' seems weird.

Because i been out at sea for 9 years and survey naval structures for a living. However you are free to prove me wrong with good reasoning.

 

[gslv mk3]

Because i been out at sea for 9 years and survey naval structures for a living.

including submarines ?

 

[Shajida Khan]

Because i been out at sea for 9 years and survey naval structures for a living. However you are free to prove me wrong with good reasoning.

FYI, China has tested JL-2 SLBM (Weighing 42 tonnes) from a Golf class diesel electric sub with a displacement of mere 3600 tonnes. Arihant has a displacement of 6000 tonnes. And Arindham will have a displacement of atleast 8-9 thousand tonnes.

I am still curious, why do you think sub will tear itself apart. What will cause that?

 

[gslv mk3]

BTW K-4 launch weight is said to be 17 tonnes.

BTW, this is the K-5 SLBM

 

[Safriz]

FYI, China has tested JL-2 SLBM (Weighing 42 tonnes) from a Golf class diesel electric sub with a displacement of mere 3600 tonnes. Arihant has a displacement of 6000 tonnes. And Arindham will have a displacement of atleast 8-9 thousand tonnes.

I am still curious, why do you think sub will tear itself apart. What will cause that?

JL-2 on a Golf class?
Chinese say its on a type 094 which is 11000 tonner.
Why i say a small sub will tare itself apart?
Try reading Hogging and sagging of Naval structures specially under concentration of weights. The Sub's bottom will have to support a 50 ton missile weight spread over an area of 2 square meters? Then while launching this weight will increase for a moment or two?
Also the question of submarine center of Gravity and Metacentric height? Doesnt add up for small subs.

BTW K-4 launch weight is said to be 17 tonnes.

BTW, this is the K-5 SLBM

View attachment 407691

17 ton is just fine for an Arhant class sized submarine. I never questioned that. My problem is when Indians claim it will be MIRV and when Indians claim that Arihant will carry some 50 tonner ICBM.

 

[gslv mk3]

17 ton is just fine for an Arhant class sized submarine. I never questioned that. My problem is when Indians claim it will be MIRV and when Indians claim that Arihant will carry some 50 tonner ICBM.

Again, what makes you think that K-5 would weigh 50 tonnes ?

JL-2 on a Golf class?
Chinese say its on a type 094 which is 11000 tonner.

The JL-2 was installed on the Golf-class Type 031 submarine for testing and the first test launch occurred in 2002

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/jl-2/

Chinese-built to Russian plans, this submarine was originally fitted for three Russian SLBMs. Because the first-generation Chinese SLBMs (JL-1) were larger in diameter than the Soviet missiles, it only has two launch silos in the sail.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/golf.htm

 

[Shajida Khan]

JL-2 on a Golf class?
Chinese say its on a type 094 which is 11000 tonner.
Why i say a small sub will tare itself apart?
Try reading Hogging and sagging of Naval structures specially under concentration of weights. The Sub's bottom will have to support a 50 ton missile weight spread over an area of 2 square meters? Then while launching this weight will increase for a moment or two?
Also the question of submarine center of Gravity and Metacentric height? Doesnt add up for small subs.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/jl-2/

"The JL-2 was installed on the Golf-class Type 031 submarine for testing and the first test launch occurred in 2002, with subsequent launches reported in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, and 2015."

You see, I can agree that if you are installing as many as 24 missiles on a sub, it needs to be much larger. But what if India wants to deploy -- even if in interim -- only 4 missiles on a 8000 tonne displacement sub?

Arihant with a displacement of 6000 tonnes and can accomodate 12 K-15 or 4 K-4 missiles.

I doubt 8000 - 9000 tonne displacement sub will tear itself apart from carrying and launching 4 60 tonne missiles.

Arindham is under construction and is much larger than Arrant.

I think finally India will go for a S-5 sub, which will be a 10,000 tonne displacement.

 

[Safriz]

https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/jl-2/

"The JL-2 was installed on the Golf-class Type 031 submarine for testing and the first test launch occurred in 2002, with subsequent launches reported in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, and 2015."

You see, I can agree that if you are installing as many as 24 missiles on a sub, it needs to be much larger. But what if India wants to deploy -- even if in interim -- only 4 missiles on a 8000 tonne displacement sub?

Arihant with a displacement of 6000 tonnes and can accomodate 12 K-15 or 4 K-4 missiles.

I doubt 8000 tonne displacement sub will tear itself apart from carrying and launching 4 60 tonne missiles.

The type 031 sub you and others mention also looked like a pregnant duck with a under hanging belly which was there due to additional farmings required to strengthen the sub structure for such a large weight. It was never an operational submarine, was just a test platform which probably never left the harbour.
For an operational submarine able to go to the high seas , such arrangement is not feasible.

 

[Shajida Khan]

The type 031 sub you and others mention also looked like a pregnant duck with a under hanging belly which was there due to additional farmings required to strengthen the sub structure for such a large weight. It was never an operational submarine, was just a test platform which probably never left the harbour.
For an operational submarine able to go to the high seas , such arrangement is not feasible.

BTW, Type 031 was about half in displacement compared to Arihant. And possibly will be one third in comparison to Arindham.
S-5 will be a 10,000 tonne displacement sub and will carry 12 A-6 SLBMs.
http://defenceupdate.in/construction-in-full-swing-on-indias-2nd-and-3rd-nuclear-submarine/
http://www.indiatimes.com/technolog...lanet-heres-what-you-need-to-know-232694.html

 

[faithfulguy]

Caz no foreign help in this one

Are you suggesting that without NASA deep space monitoring capability, ISRO will not get to Mars on its first attempt?

Indians here do get insulted by this obvious fact that some of them even proposed that India is ahead of NASA in Mars exploration.