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The Problem From Hell: South Asia’s Arms Race

Emotional analysis? That is what you are doing by claiming that India somehow had upper hand in previous wars (except E.Pakistan debacle). The fact is that all of you guys' wars were waste of time. You both countries got nothing out of those wars. Some chest thumping from both sides and thats it.

My point is that cold-start can not be implemented against Pakistan because it can lead to an all out war. Anyways , you have every right to disagree.

We never tried to invade them except 65 and 71. In both these wars, we ended up with considerable amounts of invaded Pakistani territory. The main objective of our wars has mostly been to defend our territory usually, since we are happy with what we have. Its the Pakistanis that want to take Kashmir from us.

I dont want to repeat things that have been said from both perspectives in countless other threads here, but you are free to browse some other threads in 65/71 topics from the past.

I agree that war is a waste of time and resources, but India has always been forced into war by Pakistan. For the most part, we usually got what we wanted from the wars, which is to keep our borders secure.
 
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Cold-Start is 'innovative'? It is just an Indian version of Blitzkrieg and that too , a failed one.

Get 10,000 bucks from me on the day India actually dares to deploy cold-start against an adversary like Pakistan. Pakistan Military will either utterly destroy Indian invasion OR in case of an Indian success , the war will escalate into an all out war on all fronts. In both of these cases , India comes out as a big loser. So what is the point of even having such useless doctrine?

Cold start is very good against countries like Sri Lanka though....

Cold Start was Dead - the Day Congress Thugs came to Power in 2004.

Compare the situation post 26/11 and 2001 Parliament Attacks. (Pakistani Nukes were Present both the times with Full Financial and Military Support of USA).
 
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Who told you that I'm telling you how "Americans" think? I just joined this forum to comment on Gaza situation. Now , I just play around with Indians , Pakistanis , and one Chinese dude. Obviously no American will say such things IF he was having a serious conversation with someone.

Juice , Gambit are your typical Americans in this forum.

Also , if you so doubt me why don't tell mods to check my location? :rolleyes:

You're not telling us how americans think. You are trying to put yourself in an American's shoes and trying to pretend to be an objective observer of the third worlders, whereas the reality is that you are quite emotionally invested in what you are saying.

Forget americans, not even sane Pakistanis would say some of the things you said about the indian military being that impotent. I do not need to check with the admins (who in any case can only vouch for your present location, not your real nationality), because every line you say tells me where you are from. Or at the very least, tells me you are not American.

That phrase "you third worlders" was just the culmination of a lot of sentences that gave you away.

A real American in his day to day activities meets with Indians, Ukrainians, Chinese, Italians, Mexicans and people from all imaginable nationalities and backgrounds. Classifying them as "first worlders" and "third worlders" wont make any sense, wont serve any meaningful purpose. They have other ways of classifying people, whether by race (Asian, black, white etc) or by regional origin. This classifying people as "first worlders" and "third worlders" is more of a subcontinental phenomenon.

As I said before, it is amply clear to me that you are not American, even if you may be located in America. It won't really matter if you are simply stating objective facts. But when you are making uninformed opinions, and that too such biased and emotionally charged (but otherwise empty) ones, it is disingenuous to disown your real background.

Cold Start was Dead - the Day Congress Thugs came to Power in 2004.

Compare the situation post 26/11 and 2001 Parliament Attacks. (Pakistani Nukes were Present both the times with Full Financial and Military Support of USA).

Who was in power when the parliament was attacked? Let me give you a hint - not the congress.

What did we do when our parliament was attacked? Zilch.

This isn't a political problem.
 
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Iraq policy was not in our favor but yet Iraq saga happened. Hawks are in every establishment. The problem is , we could afford Iraq but India can't afford any misadventure with Pakistan. Cold-Start is a doctrine based on assumption. An assumption that India will not cross the 'threshold' of Pakistan. That is a tricky businesses right there.

I don't need logical points to debunk cold-start. It debunks itself. Since when nations' doctrine are based on an "assumption" about enemy's unknown response? lol Is Indian military that junkard?

I don't believe cold-start even exists in real life. If it does , then may Lord protect your country from your mentally handicap generals.

Lastly , cold start was 'tested' in war-games? how so? how did Indian planners determine the response of Pakistan military? :rolleyes:

One more thing : Can India mobilize its military faster than Pakistan? Not a chance! (Unless offcourse you believe in fairy tales).

Pakistan can mobilize its entire military to Indian border in a matter of hours. India just can't do that.

Fair enough dude, but let's first look as to what Cold Start actually is, this is what ur own Govt. (if u r American) has to say via Wikileaks:

it is a developed operational attack plan announced in 2004 and intended to be taken off the shelf and implemented within a 72-hour period during a crisis. Cold Start is not a plan for a comprehensive invasion and occupation of Pakistan. Instead, it calls for a rapid, time- and distance-limited penetration into Pakistani territory with the goal of quickly punishing Pakistan, possibly in response to a Pakistan-linked terrorist attack in India, without threatening the survival of the Pakistani state or provoking a nuclear response.

Now the question comes how it came into existence, again Long Live Wikileaks:

Cold Start is said to have been formulated after the Indian Army's slow and drawn-out 2002 mobilization in response to the fatal 2001 Pakistan-linked terror attack on the Indian Parliament. The lengthy process of mobilization, lack of strategic and operational flexibility, and the resulting lack of any element of surprise drew criticism from Indian politicians and opinion leaders, which prompted Indian Army planners to devise Cold Start.

Now, i can't stop laughing at one of ur point which says "Cold-Start is a doctrine based on assumption", i mean how else a country makes plans/doctrines against another country if it does not take into account some "ASSUMPTIONS", or u wanna tell me that Great Hyper Power America has produced a mind reading device so that they can read the minds of there adversaries, wasn't Iraq happened b'coz of an assumption of Saddam having nuclear weapons & what will be American response if he used it against American Interests??? wasn't Hitler's attack on USSR on the assumption that Russia's surrender would be a question of months??? wasn't Kargil an assumption by PA that International forces will make cease-fire resulting into Pakistan gaining Kargil, Drass, Batalic & Siachin???

Thus, Indian armed forces, by developing Cold Start, wants a doctrine that can help India take effective measure in case of another Mumbai-26/11 type attack, since operation Parakram was a total disaster which can't sustain the 21st century era of warfare which demands fast mobilization, effective intelligence, great use of 4th dimension of warfare i.e. space, all at one time.

Ofcourse, India cannot be seen as doing nothing in case of another 26/11, thus this doctrine gives it the much needed element of surprise & keeps Pakistan's armed forces on it's toes & give it as much ambiguity in Indian use of Cold Start as there is of Pakistan's use of nuclear weapons. So much so that in it's recent war games Pakistani forces are practicing how to counter the CSD:

The Pakistani Army chief declared 2010 the "Year of Training", conducting a large scale military exercise named Azm-e-Nau 3 which focused on offensive defense against Cold Start. The army also tested the Nasr, a nuclear-capable missile from the family of Hatf-IX missiles with a purported range of 60 km, high accuracy and a shoot and scoot delivery system.

Now in case of application of CSD by India, there is the probability that Pakistan will use tactical nuclear weapons against marching Indian forces rather than Strategic nuke weapons against Indian cities (reason why Pakistan is developing tactical nukes in first place), so damage would not be as great & radiation would be spread in the Pakistani territory itself, so Pakistan has to think many times before it's been used, if used it will be upto India as to on what scale the retaliation should be since the NFU policy will be breached, loss will be of India for sure but it will be greater for Pakistan.

As far as mobilization is concerned, there is no need (this is all what the doctrine is about), as stated earlier 60% of India's land & air assets are facing Pak, so within the time when the IA & IAF will be attacking inside Pak, there will be reinforcements for the defence of Indian territory.

Lastly, yes India has tested CSD in wargames, if u don't know what wargames means, here is the definition - "An often physical or electronic simulation of a military operation involving two or more forces and using rules, data, and procedures designed to depict an actual or ASSUMED situation."

Hope now u understand.

P.S. why not come into ur true colors i.e. put real flags???
 
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Just now , a Pakistani was calling me an "Indian-American". You third-world people are fun to be around. Always looking for conspiracy theories and what not.

FYI , if I was not an American , Americans on this forum would've spotted me at once. ;)

Nothing but a biased analysis and lack of recognition of Indian strength still easily gives u away that u r not one.
 
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Who was in power when the parliament was attacked? Let me give you a hint - not the congress.

What did we do when our parliament was attacked? Zilch.

This isn't a political problem.

Do you have Comprehension Problems?

Look at the Reaction between the two post 26/11 and 2001 Parliament Attack.

Speaks Volumes Who Started the Cold Start and who called Kargil's War as BJP;s War. :lol:
 
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Ha Ha the suppossed american guy was vehemently and emotionally arguing that hamas won gaza conflict,even abusing the nationality of those who opposed that view..

so we do know the gross nationality of this so called first worlder . thanks for pointing out !
 
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Do you have Comprehension Problems?

Look at the Reaction between the two post 26/11 and 2001 Parliament Attack.

Speaks Volumes Who Started the Cold Start and who called Kargil's War as BJP;s War. :lol:

Maybe I do have comprehension problems, so will you be so kind as to explain to me the difference in our reactions to the two events? As far as I can see, we didn't take punitive action after 26/11 or after the parliament attack. Please tell me what was the big difference you saw? With your superior comprehension skills I am sure you can elucidate me.

so we do know the gross nationality of this so called first worlder . thanks for pointing out !

You mean its the same people who believe that Pakistan won all its wars against india, and that the Taliban won against the US and so on? Yep, we know from which region that "first worlder" is.
 
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"The problem from hell"?!!! Laying it on a bit thick!! I genuinely don't see it as a problem for anyone but Pakistan as they are the ones who simply can afford an escalation in arms (I won't use the term "race" because that inked two equals with the possibility of two outcomes, as it stands India has already won). There defence budget is already way,way out of proportion to GDP and their economy is already in intensive care. Pakistani can't do anything else. India is maintaining minimal defence spending (2% of GDP) and already far out spending Pakistan and growing at an impressive rate year on year.
 
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Pakistan has already deep froze india's cold start and put it into cold storage .:lol:
 
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ohhhhh :laugh::laugh: nthng could be done for this guy .....there is 1 another guy also .......in each every thread smnthng good abt india they suddenly start trolling .......i am thinking to report it to CIA :woot::woot: or who knows it may be a propaganda by CIA itself :smokin:

u r talking abt 10k bucks i can donate him ma entire mnth salary if he would be able to put his real flag

We are third world people for him :what: 10k bucks are like spending a evening for him :P Dont mess up with him !!
Let him talk anything. All we know is they are ashamed to put their real flags. And let them be.

With what exactly?

A kelvinator refrigerator. Or a Godrej taken as dowry when going to Pakistan from India.
 
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