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The Path to Democracy

OKay. Chinese need Democracy & enjoy Democracy, but not West or American Democracy coz we r living in different political system, USSR believed & followed West Democracy method now they become the Russia.


The reasons for Russia's failure is because Glassnost and Perestroika were implemented too quickly. It should have followed a gradual aperture. Look at China, it's success is due in part to gradual policy changes. Acute change is never healthy for any state in transition.

OKay. Chinese need Democracy & enjoy Democracy, but not West or American Democracy coz we r living in different political system, USSR believed & followed West Democracy method now they become the Russia.

Let us examine the relative success of Poland, Hungary -- due in part to gradual economic and political changes after the collapse of the Communist system. Examine the dichotomy between Poland / Hungary to Russia in context to said political and economic processes.
 
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The reasons for Russia's failure is because Glassnost and Perestroika were implemented too quickly. It should have followed a gradual aperture. Look at China, it's success is due in part to gradual policy changes. Acute change is never healthy for any state in transition.
There's a Chinese government in TaiWan, called Republic of China and proud of their Democracy compared with PRC, but indeed a weaker China in this world.


Let us examine the relative success of Poland, Hungary -- due in part to gradual economic and political changes after the collapse of the Communist system. Examine the dichotomy between Poland / Hungary to Russia in context to said political and economic processes.
Yes, Poland/ Hungary these small nations they standed up on the dead body of USSR ... the same example for Japan after First Sino(Qing)-Japanese War 1894-1895. Resource & Treasure leave bigger nation into neighbor nations.
 
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We sort of differ on the checks and balances, America's democracy, though subtle, to me it has evolved greatly, from the times of Washington, to right now.

Though the constitution remains largely the same, correct me if I am wrong, US is no longer the same.

So in my mind, if the system is largely the same than the reason for this change isn't the system, per say, it's the people. American people are much richer than before, they are much more educated, and they hold much more tangible power.

China to me would be the same, regardless of the system, 1989 would not happen again, because the Chinese people have much more power to strike back. The soldiers are much more educated and connected to the people, the people are educated, and are much better off, they don't depend on the government anymore.

The recent death in Shanghai, it wasn't even the government and yet, the outrage is so, that the government must take every action.

I agree. Perhaps I didn't state it explicitly in my example of Switzerland, the UK, and the US: democracy must fit the particular needs of a country at a particular time. The form of democracy present in the US, as you stated, is not the same as when the US was founded. Directly elected senators, a popularly elected Vice President, the destruction of states' rights--we have certainly changed quite a bit from the intentions of our founders, and not always for the better. China will find its own appropriate form of governance, but I do believe it will end up being some form of democracy, even if it doesn't quite resemble Western democracy.




That third party thing never works, because we have already forgotten the Bush years, Obama is now public enemy number one. Now I'm not judging them one way or the other, but it does seem just because we can find fault with both doesn't mean a third will rise.

Canada is a bit different, we have the NDP with Liberal and Conservatives, but NDP have never taken power, and I believe Canadian parties have far less hold on the country than the American ones do.

I would argue that the third party works precisely because it forces the losing major party to pivot back to the center, to embrace the disenfranchised voters who felt left out before and thus voted for the third party. Perot's presidential run allowed Clinton to be elected, that's true. But he achieved that goal by siphoning off Republican voters who felt disenfranchised by the Republican coziness with business (the establishment, "country club" Republicanism that George H. W. Bush represented). I would argue that a direct result of Perot's third party run was the Republican Contract With America, which addressed the same concerns that Perot was addressing, and enabled the Republicans to win in an avalanche election in 1994. This is yet another expression of the median voter theorem, except Perot forced it upon the Republicans through his third party run.

So third parties don't work directly, but rather, indirectly.




in a way we do have it, does Chinese government listen to the people? Recent reforms certainly suggest Xi didn't make decisions in his sleep, but there is no direct way for Chinese to voice their opinions.

Now here's what's interesting, China has reformed far more in the last year than US has in the last 20, yet, US as a more direct route to power and China has no route.

Which brings us back to the tangible power I was talking about, true people power, no given, but earned.

Another point I would like to point to a failed democracy, a failed democracy today still has legitimacy, no one in India calls the Singh government illegal and must be destroyed, Congress likely will make a comeback next time around, I don't want to discuss why here, but the point is, the Chinese government always feel the heat, and in some ways feels they must perform, or else they be gone, gone.

The ancient rule for emperors is the carrot and the stick, and he always wants his officials to feel there is a blade against their necks. The CCP has put the blade there themselves with Deng, the visionary, and from now on, they can no longer get away from it, and the more they try, in improving the country, the blade actually gets closer.

@Chinese-Dragon has told me before that the CCP conducts regular polls to discern the will of the people, and makes adjustments accordingly. That's a great way to compensate for the weaknesses present in an authoritarian system, but as you pointed out previously, decisions based on an opinion poll do not have the same legitimacy as decisions based on an election (especially if the opinion polls are not made public with a transparent methodology).

That is the opportunity and the threat for China: it can enact reform more quickly, but it must always worry that it has misinterpreted the will of the people. When people answer an opinion poll, they are not invested in the same way they are when they vote; one can always blame the party for a bad decision based on polling, but one can only blame oneself for voting for a party that is incompetent. To your point, the CCP has been competent, and has earned its mandate. But the situation could turn ugly if the CCP ever makes a serious mistake, or misjudges what kind of changes/reforms the populace will accept. The legitimacy of elections provides a shield to politicians in a democracy, but the CCP has no such protections. But no one is perfect, and mistakes will happen. That is why I think some form of democracy will ultimately benefit China, to provide that flexibility, and tolerance for mistakes.


I was more talking about how do you propose Chinese state companies be divided or go private? The final result if done right can be either or, but if done wrong, it's just bad.

I thought about saying something, but this is actually a big topic than I first envisioned, regarding state and private, I'll get back to it.

I look forward to your discussion of the matter.
 
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Well, China did go through a period of democratic movement after the fall of Qing, which ultimately leads to civil war from 1927, then invasion by Japan in 1937, then back to civil war again ending in 1949. Let us put aside such political & social adventurism to rebuild our nation first, until such time that favorable opportunities arise, shall we step through the fire again. As of right now, China is fine without democracy in the true sense of the word, controlled capitalism would suffice for our needs.
 
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Please spare US and this thread from your shallow cynicism that failed to pass off as thoughtful input. Cynicism have never solved a problem. At best, it gives the commentator a facade of intellectualism but not its substance. Cynicism is the first and usually last tool of the intellectually lazy.
That is so rich coming from you.Spare me of your delusion and denial.I know very well thought process of your kind.My goverment done it-therefore is right and good.Your kind see nothing wrong in crimes committed in the name of fake western style democracy.
 
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Well, China did go through a period of democratic movement after the fall of Qing, which ultimately leads to civil war from 1927, then invasion by Japan in 1937, then back to civil war again ending in 1949. Let us put aside such political & social adventurism to rebuild our nation first, until such time that favorable opportunities arise, shall we step through the fire again. As of right now, China is fine without democracy in the true sense of the word, controlled capitalism would suffice for our needs.

Poignant. Dahrendorf said it best, "Civil society is the set of civic rights, including primarily everyone's right to participation in public life. These rights provide the compass which helps us to steer the right course between the Scylla of the state with all its competences of power, and the Charybdis of the corporate cartel of organizations and institutions which in some circumstance can be equally dangerous to freedom. Civil society must also have foundation in a mature democracy and a mature political culture. It can be built only if there is widespread determination on the part of society to demand respect for, and observance of, individual rights and popular will to hold accountable anyone or any institution , which violates them."

That said, I want to reiterate the pillars of democracy:
  1. Sovereignty of the people
  2. Government based upon consent of the governed
  3. Majority rule
  4. Minority rights
  5. Guarantee of basic human rights
  6. Free and fair elections
  7. Equality before the law
  8. Constitutional limits on government
  9. Social, economic and political pluralism
  10. Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation and compromise

The satisfaction of the above conditions for political and economic democracy would represent the re-conquering of the political and economic realms by the public realm. This is the reconquering of a true social individuality, the creation of conditions of freedom and self determination, both at the political and the economic levels. Political and economic power are not the only forms of power and therefore political and economic democracy do not, by themselves, secure an inclusive democracy.

An inclusive democracy is inconceivable unless it extends to the broader social realm to embrace the workplace, the household, the educational institution and indeed any economic or cultural institution which constitutes an element of this realm. Democracy is incompatible with any form of a closed system of ideas or dogmas, at the ideological level and with any concentration of power at the institutional level.

These are just necessary conditions for democracy. The sufficient condition so that democracy will not denigrate into some kind of "demago-crazy" where the demos is manipulated by a new breed of professional politicians, is crucially determined by the citizen's level of democratic consciousness. Democracy is the one type of government that cannot exist without the approval and input of the people. This is because its main characteristic is choice -- without active political choices being made by the citizens.

By the way, Sir @LeveragedBuyout , do you happen to follow Mark Levin, the political commentator? I actually just finished reading his book, "The Liberty Amendments" , and correlates with @Genesis ' central theme(s). Levin's work focused on these necessary pillars wherein a democracy may flourish. I find it quite interesting that societies that have a lacking in said prerequisites tend to fail in their democratic movements, or said democratic movements denigrate into a dictatorship or transform into a pseudo-democracy that is not inclusive , but rather oligarchical in nature. Satisfaction of said prerequisites, these cultural factors --- becomes pivotal. Examples include: Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Thailand -- to name just a few.

Your input?
 
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Democracy has gradually become a religion. Westerners believe those who don't convert to it are sinful in nature. We gotta put the democracy to the right place where it should be. It's nothing but a social management tool. As Deng Xiaoping said, "No matter a cat is black or white,as long as it can catch mice, it's a good cat." So far we got a good cat, although it may not look cute. Why would China risk its future to change another one just because this one looks good?
 
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Democracy has gradually become a religion. Westerners believe those who don't convert to it are sinful in nature. We gotta put the democracy to the right place where it should be. It's nothing but a social management tool. As Deng Xiaoping said, "No matter a cat is black or white,as long as it can catch mice, it's a good cat." So far we got a good cat, although it may not look cute. Why would China risk its future to change another one just because this one looks good?

The purest form of democracy, an inclusive democracy, is an ideological goal. It is irrelevant to say -- whether or not that this ideological goal is being touted by the west, the near east, or the far east. The fact is -- inclusive democracy is participatory in nature. As it stands, there are some clear and definite societies wherein -- do not have the capability to satisfy the 7 pillars of democracy. Inclusive democracy is a political goal -- and as an ideology, transcends notion of geographical constraints, rather, the only constraints that prevent societies from attaining it are -- the social rights mentioned in my prior post.

Again, some societies in the world cannot satisfy requirements for democracy. Thus their failure in the democratic experiment. Democracy should never be pressed or forced, it will only succeed in a society where the people -- the building block of any democratic society -- have an innate democratic consciousness.
 
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Democracy has gradually become a religion. Westerners believe those who don't convert to it are sinful in nature. We gotta put the democracy to the right place where it should be. It's nothing but a social management tool. As Deng Xiaoping said, "No matter a cat is black or white,as long as it can catch mice, it's a good cat." So far we got a good cat, although it may not look cute. Why would China risk its future to change another one just because this one looks good?

While I'm not in the mood to say we need to make the switch, I also want to rain on your parade, it's not working, not entirely.

Corruption is rampant, the car inspection place is a 500,000 dollar job per year, it's such a place that no one person can work there 2 years in a role, and it's about a 100,00 to 200,000 dollars just to get the job.

You want to know how I know that? I got a huge family, though I rarely see them, they work in the government, they know all the crock things they do in there.

At this point, it's an open secret.

Has Xi improved things? Yes, definitely real changes, businesses get no calls from the tax collection agencies for some fake *** collections, and the wine and dine things are over, at least in the open, corruption has been curbed a bit, but it's not gone.

The people needs a voice, not because I think people have good ideas, or even it won't hamper development, but the problem of corruption is too deep rooted at this point, fighting fire with fire will only make the fire burn brighter.


I'm going to say corruption will happen, especially during thsi period of change, due to general poverty, lack of rule of law, lack of people power, and all that regardless of what system it is, this will happen. However that doesn't mean, just because it happened, you don't fix it, it must be fixed, for the good of the country.

While we can live without CCP, but a person without a nation...Just look at our Muslim brothers and African brothers. They work just as hard, some of them, if not harder and here they are. We must not become that...Again.
 
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While I'm not in the mood to say we need to make the switch, I also want to rain on your parade, it's not working, not entirely.

Corruption is rampant, the car inspection place is a 500,000 dollar job per year, it's such a place that no one person can work there 2 years in a role, and it's about a 100,00 to 200,000 dollars just to get the job.

You want to know how I know that? I got a huge family, though I rarely see them, they work in the government, they know all the crock things they do in there.

At this point, it's an open secret.

Has Xi improved things? Yes, definitely real changes, businesses get no calls from the tax collection agencies for some fake *** collections, and the wine and dine things are over, at least in the open, corruption has been curbed a bit, but it's not gone.

The people needs a voice, not because I think people have good ideas, or even it won't hamper development, but the problem of corruption is too deep rooted at this point, fighting fire with fire will only make the fire burn brighter.


I'm going to say corruption will happen, especially during thsi period of change, due to general poverty, lack of rule of law, lack of people power, and all that regardless of what system it is, this will happen. However that doesn't mean, just because it happened, you don't fix it, it must be fixed, for the good of the country.

While we can live without CCP, but a person without a nation...Just look at our Muslim brothers and African brothers. They work just as hard, some of them, if not harder and here they are. We must not become that...Again.

China, as a society, is developing and as this nation progresses, so too will the social equality and social consciousness that comes with it. Zhongguo is developing not only its cultural milieu, not just its economic systems, but its legal system -- particularly concept of jurisprudence. Eventually, the cultural reality in China will allow for the transition into a democratic system, an inclusive democracy, gradually , of course. However, right now, China must satisfy first these 7 pillars that I have mentioned:

  1. Sovereignty of the people
  2. Government based upon consent of the governed
  3. Majority rule
  4. Minority rights
  5. Guarantee of basic human rights
  6. Free and fair elections
  7. Equality before the law
  8. Constitutional limits on government
  9. Social, economic and political pluralism
  10. Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation and compromise

Remember, The Great Wall wasn't built in one day. But over the course of time.
 
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Capitalism and the Privatization of Industry in China
This is a recurring topic on PDF, so I apologize in advance for not covering it in depth here. I started a thread some months ago about this (China’s state enterprise reform could strengthen state and earlier, China’s Trilemma ), but the bottom line is that this is not a binary choice between state owned enterprises that serve the people, and privatized enterprises that coldly pursue profit. SOEs can address market failures, as they sometimes do in Europe and the US (yes, the United States also has important SOEs, like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the mortgage market). But on the whole, China needs the efficiency of the private sector to ensure that it continues to allocate resources effectively and keep the economy (and living standards) growing.

There is no such thing as a market without government interference (it's called regulation), there is simply a spectrum along which a government can choose to interfere maximally (North Korea) or minimally (Hong Kong). China will choose what is right for itself, and indeed, the reform program currently in place is meant to move China along that spectrum, not revolutionize the economy.

Again, great topic. Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

To me, privatization of industry should not be done prematurely. A nation has much more resources than a private company and is much less intimidated by risks, which appears far smaller to a nation than to you and me.

What I mean is the Chinese semi conductor industry, the Operating systems industry, and many other industries including aerospace industry. These industries if left by itself will be nothing, compared to Western ones, because they lack the resources, be it people, money, or our cyber army used for stealing secrets (though how successful is debatable).

To better illustrate, the Electronics game, the Automobile game, and the Real Estate game use to be national companies, but since they all gone private, but only as they became more ready, auto industry less so.

Without the country's effort to get factories full of people who knows how to assemble a TV, the capital to build more factories, the know how on how to operating them, and more, China would not be the manufacturing giant it is today.

You said you been in China during the early days, then you should know how limited our industry was then, and if we are to look at other developing countries' industry relative to us, we can also see how far we have advanced.

So to me these two serves different purpose rather than the efficiency part. A car without an engine will not run, no matter how well made it is, on the other hand, a car that only has the engine will break down, every 10 meters, if that's the only good thing about it.

It seems like a dedicated balance.



If we are to look at the oil industry as a whole, are they not the side arm of any colonizing force or invasion force? Be it Shell, Exxon Mobil or even SinoPec. Can a private company make as much an impact if it didn't have politics behind it?

Since we are talking democracy's merit and problems, how can China privatize these companies, without having large interests groups forming that may have too much hold a industry should on a government? To some degree, SinoPec has way too much interests overseas, that if China were to some day look to expand its influence, it almost cannot do without it.

If we break it up, would it not be too divisive, we just merged a few state owned companies, as it turns out, competition can some times be damaging to both's interests and the nation's.


Is there a way to balance these things, are are we just doomed to repeat mistakes again and again, because the first mistake wasn't stupidity, but a necessity.

China, as a society, is developing and as this nation progresses, so too will the social equality and social consciousness that comes with it. Zhongguo is developing not only its cultural milieu, not just its economic systems, but its legal system -- particularly concept of jurisprudence. Eventually, the cultural reality in China will allow for the transition into a democratic system, an inclusive democracy, gradually , of course. However, right now, China must satisfy first these 7 pillars that I have mentioned:

  1. Sovereignty of the people
  2. Government based upon consent of the governed
  3. Majority rule
  4. Minority rights
  5. Guarantee of basic human rights
  6. Free and fair elections
  7. Equality before the law
  8. Constitutional limits on government
  9. Social, economic and political pluralism
  10. Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation and compromise

Remember, The Great Wall wasn't built in one day. But over the course of time.
great wall wasn't built in a day, but it was built with the blood and bones of its workers. While I am optimistic about the future, I sometimes do doubt if when push come to shove, CCP will really relinquish its absolute control or will there be chaos, and even if they do, how damaging the transitional period will be.

People often forget during the huge military cuts of our earlier days from 6 million to current 1.6, our military was more or less just for show, and it was not a good show, it's the kind of show, you would kick the director in the balls for.
 
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democracy may not be the best form of institutional govt. but it certainly has its own merit.. it will surely slowdown the progress a bit.. but at the same time it will help to focus on all sections of society. china has been a great nation.. and has great historic past, and i as an indian would certainly welcome, if china become a democracy..
in democracy process of development may slow down but the people participation and satisfaction will certainly increase leading to greater stability and integration... china is vast country whose time can be divided into atleast 4 time zones but still even the most western part of china has to follow the single timelime of 120* E longitude... People participation has its own advantage, it open the channel to reflect a community grievances at a top level. the chinese growth is top to bottom model which need to be decentralized and have bottom up approach, this will help in realizing, the development from a new angle, not always what govt. think is required by the masses, but let help masses decide what they want for themselves.
the new hot debate is on governance in democracy.. the rampant corruption in china may be because of single party, though, not saying democracy won't have corruption, but as the democracy matures it reduces it..
 
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To me, privatization of industry should not be done prematurely. A nation has much more resources than a private company and is much less intimidated by risks, which appears far smaller to a nation than to you and me.

What I mean is the Chinese semi conductor industry, the Operating systems industry, and many other industries including aerospace industry. These industries if left by itself will be nothing, compared to Western ones, because they lack the resources, be it people, money, or our cyber army used for stealing secrets (though how successful is debatable).

To better illustrate, the Electronics game, the Automobile game, and the Real Estate game use to be national companies, but since they all gone private, but only as they became more ready, auto industry less so.

Without the country's effort to get factories full of people who knows how to assemble a TV, the capital to build more factories, the know how on how to operating them, and more, China would not be the manufacturing giant it is today.

There are , indeed, some limitations when one opts to privatize industry components. There are 8 key lessons to consider:

1. Privatization works best when it's part of a larger program of reforms promoting efficiency. New Zealand, the U.K., Mexico, and Chile are all successful privatizers. Their privatizations were accompanied by reforms to open markets, remove price and exchange rate distortions, and encourage the development of the private sector through free entry. Revenue maximization should not be the primary goal of privatization. Far better to eliminate monopoly power and unleash potentially competitive activities than to boost the sales price by divesting into protected markets. Also far better to create regulations to protect consumer welfare than to maximize price by selling into an unregulated market.

2. Regulation is critical to the successful privatization of monopolies. In the sale of Chile Telecom, everybody won--consumers, labor, government, buyers--and the productive efficiency of the company increased as a result of a well-developed, well-administered regulatory framework.

3. Countries can benefit from privatizing management without privatizing the ownership of assets. Management contracts, leases, and concessions have been successfully used the world over, particularly in sectors where it is difficult to attract private investors. In Côte d'Ivoire, the leased water company improved technical efficiency, increased new connections, became more efficient in billing and collection of receivables --and reduced the number of expatriate employees by 70%. But because a change in ownership is usually needed to lock in performance gains, private management arrangements are likely to work best when they are a step toward full privatization.

4. The sale of large enterprises requires considerable preparation. Successful privatizations of large enterprises have entailed breaking them into competitive and marketable units (in east Germany, Argentina, and Mexico), bringing in dynamic private sector managers (in many telecom and airline sales around the world), settling past liabilities, and shedding excess labor (in steel and railways in Argentina). Successful privatizing governments also assiduously avoided large new investments for plant modernization and equipment, since getting the private sector to finance and manage these investments was itself a major reason for privatization.

5. Transparency is critical for economic and political success.Mexico and the Philippines made the sale of enterprises transparent by adopting competitive bidding procedures, developing objective criteria for selecting bids, and creating a clear focal point with minimal bureaucracy to monitor the overall program. A lack of transparency can result in political backlash, as in the early days of privatization in Poland, or even bring the process to a halt, as in Guinea.

6. Governments must pay special attention to developing a social safety net. In Tunisia, generous severance packages encouraged voluntary departures and reduced the need for outright dismissals. In many countries--most recently in Eastern Europe and Central Asia--employee ownership schemes, unemployment benefits, and retraining-redeployment programs are being developed to ease the social costs of privatization.

7. The formerly socialist economies should privatize in all possible ways that encourage competition, and they should experiment with all available methods that go beyond a case-by-case approach to privatization. Since the economic and social importance of SOEs is far greater there than in the rest of the world, flexibility is in order--not because privatization is less necessary, but because it is more so. Rampant institutional and policy deficiencies require experimentation with a wide set of privatization tactics. These include share give-aways (or mass privatization schemes), state-assisted financing methods, free or low-cost shares to employees in privatized firms, and new types of investment-management companies to run groups of companies and diversify risk.

8. In changing the public-private mix in any type of economy, privatization will sometimes be less important than the emergence of new private business. Countries can freeze or restrain the expansion of public enterprises and encourage the growth of a dynamic private sector through free entry, as happened in Korea and appears to be happening in China.


References:
Kikeri, Sunita, John Nellis, and Mary Shirley, Privatization: The
Lessons of Experience
, World Bank, June 1992.
Bishop, Matthew, and John Kay, Does Privatization Work? Lessons from

You said you been in China during the early days, then you should know how limited our industry was then, and if we are to look at other developing countries' industry relative to us, we can also see how far we have advanced.

So to me these two serves different purpose rather than the efficiency part. A car without an engine will not run, no matter how well made it is, on the other hand, a car that only has the engine will break down, every 10 meters, if that's the only good thing about it.

It seems like a dedicated balance.

Indeed. It is a delicate balance, but one thing that China needs to do -- if it intends to jettison its new products to the global market is to ensure a fair game , to its industry and to competitors. Tapping the domestic market is a shear way to reap immediate rewards, but by going abroad, one can ensure greater profits , plus, introduce a point of conjecture -- Chinese products are, INDEED, high quality and reliable, dependable.

China has changed a lot since I've first visited in the late 90's to what it has become now. Everything has changed; the social outlook, standard of living has increased, greater legal initiative, minority rights prerogative, educational reform, corporate law reforms, political transparency, anti-corruption drive, et al.

China is changing; China has changed... for the better.


the UK, London: London Business School, 1988.
Ott, Attiat F., and Keith Hartley, eds., Privatization and Economic
Efficiency: A Comparative Analysis of Developed and Developing
Countries
, Brookfield, VT: Edward Edgar, 1991.
Privatization: eight lessons of experience
 
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By the way, Sir @LeveragedBuyout , do you happen to follow Mark Levin, the political commentator? I actually just finished reading his book, "The Liberty Amendments" , and correlates with @Genesis ' central theme(s). Levin's work focused on these necessary pillars wherein a democracy may flourish. I find it quite interesting that societies that have a lacking in said prerequisites tend to fail in their democratic movements, or said democratic movements denigrate into a dictatorship or transform into a pseudo-democracy that is not inclusive , but rather oligarchical in nature. Satisfaction of said prerequisites, these cultural factors --- becomes pivotal. Examples include: Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Thailand -- to name just a few.

Your input?

Agree without reservation.

I used to listen to Levin's radio show, but I have neither the time nor the necessarily controlled blood pressure to listen to polemicists anymore (even if their polemics are directed at my political adversaries). But I do agree with him, and the school of thought that says that the substance of democracy--strong institutions and the rule of law--is far more important than the form of democracy (voting). That's why I would rather live in a nominal democracy like Singapore or Sweden than a full-bore democracy like Greece, because it's about the stability of society and getting things done, not about how we look doing it (while accomplishing little).

It's no coincidence, by the way, that the factors that make for a strong democracy are the same factors that make for strong economic growth (you've seen me post this link before, apologies for the repetition: Emerging and Frontier Markets: Economic and Geopolitical Analysis ). Democracy is, in some sense, a traumatic system. It demands a high level of involvement and participation from all of its citizens, whereas an authoritarian system is necessarily paternalistic, and citizens leave the major decisions in the hands of a small elite. A society needs to develop the mechanisms that will enable it to weather crises and not resort to extremism in order to successfully sustain democracy. If we paraphrase from the link I provided, the key ingredients would be:

-Minimal corruption
-Rule of law
-Competent governance
-Transparency
-Stability
-Openness to new information
-Diversity (in the case of democracy, diversity of ideas. Diversity of race is a red herring)
-Inclusiveness

One can start to see how these principals overlay very neatly on the 10 point list you presented earlier in the thread. So these factors are a necessary precondition to democracy, and without it, it will be democracy in name only (as it has been in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Thailand, Iraq, Afghanistan, much of South America throughout its history, etc.) just as you suggested.
 
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That is so rich coming from you.Spare me of your delusion and denial.I know very well thought process of your kind.My goverment done it-therefore is right and good.Your kind see nothing wrong in crimes committed in the name of fake western style democracy.
Fine...Then do tell people to stop coming to the US for our 'fake' democracy and stay in the many real dictatorships you are so comfortable with. Looks like the contents of this thread is way over your head.
 
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