The PAF's quest for a hi-tech platform

[TOPGUN]

Besides the new block f-16's ,fc-20's and jf-17's i think we need another platform i had
j-11 in mind i mean funds is a big issue second who is willing to sell us a fighter other then the chinese ? for now i think if we can we should get the j-11 stay with the org plan on the f-16's and both the fc-20's and the jf-17's as far as the qty plan goes and then in a year or two look in to a 5th gen fighter just my thought fill the gap for now and with some mid tech to high tech aircrafts and in decent numbers!

 

[chirag.s]

hey guys thanks for the info

mean_bird lets not start a war again there is nothing wrong that pakistan may have the third largest assembly line lets stick to the topic

and to mr.spurdozer no problemo i didn't fell offended at all

thank you

 

[PAFAce]

There should be one page dedicated to past PAF icons, such as the F-86, F-104, F-6, F-7, Tempests, Dakotas, Mirages etc. Also, landmark moments in PAF history should also be included, such as QEA MA Jinnah's visit in April 1948 and the Falcon Sixteen Loop performance etc.

Just my opinion.

WRONG THREAD This post was meant to be on the PAF Calendar 2009 thread. I have no idea how it ended up here.

 

[hj786]

Those are some tall claims and you guys are stating them as facts not rumors. Would be very much interested in some proof of those.
thanks.

Bro if you read my post again, I wrote we are not 100% sure whether this is true or not, but I think that in some interview (I think it was on Youtube) the Air Chief mentioned FC-20 would have TVC and PESA. I am not sure, if anybody can confirm yes or no please do, a link to the source would be great.

 

[hasang20]

for PAF a leathel combination would be

-50 JF-17s ; 100 JF-17 Block I ; 150 JF-17s of block II
-70 F-16s BLOCK 50/52
-60 FC-20s

it can be compared to

-230 SU-30MKIs
-50 F-18s
-80 Mig 35s
-40 F-16s

 

[batmannow]

a few things

To the guy that said Rafel and Eurofighter are in the same league as J-10B. You are 100% wrong Rafael, and Eurofighter are way more advanced than the J-10B, Rafael has spectra suite which makes it nearly invisible, Eurofighter is prolly similar with supercruise and stealth. not to mention superior avionics.

and to the guy who said j-10 is comparable to the mki and mkk, i doubt it, mainly for 2 reasons,

1. weight
2. j-10 is single engined

j-10 is lighter thus it must carry less electronics and is less sophisticated, and even if it did carry as much electronics as the su-30 it still wouldn't have enough power because of a single engine to supply electricity to all of those electronics.

After doing some research, I've classified A/C into 3 tiers based on electronics, radar, stealth, engine power, tvc, and ew equipment.

tier 1:

-F-22, JSF

tier 2:

-Rafael, Typhoon, MKI, F/A-18, F-15, Mig-35(or Mig-29 SMT)

tier 3:

-MKK, F-16, Gripen, J-10A/B, LCA, M2K, Mig-29, Su-27, and JF-17

why did i put the MKK in tier 3? for a few reasons, 1st off its huge size (lil bigger than MKI), but u might argue that the MKI is also huge, but the MKI has a much better jammer thus offering a degree of stealth, also the MKK's radar is comparable to the current radar on IAF Mig-29s while the MKI's radar is the 2nd best in tier 2(after the F/A-18's AESA). also the MKI's electronics are much better than the MKK's and lastly the MKI has TVC and Canards, which help a lot in close combat.

and the new mig-29 upgrade is also very lethal, it has better engines, tvc, aesa, better electronics, etc... that's the reason for putting it in tier 2.

reason for putting J-10B in 3rd tier is because it isn't proven (just on paper), everyone claims AESA, tvc, etc... but the simple truth is that only 2-3 countries have AESA, and plaaf is at least 5-10 years from an AESA, and tvc is the same situiation. even Rafael and Typhoon dont have AESA's atm.

superdefender, sir
cant realy understand your logic! you put J-10 in third tier...because you said they are not proven , so where did Rafael,Mig-35, & when did proved?
also you put F-16's in the thrid tier, i guss most proven bird is f-16s, more thn any other aircrafts mentioned in your 2nd tier, in your unlogical post?

 

[PAFAce]

tier 1:
-F-22, JSF

tier 2:
-Rafael, Typhoon, MKI, F/A-18, F-15, Mig-35(or Mig-29 SMT)

tier 3:
-MKK, F-16, Gripen, J-10A/B, LCA, M2K, Mig-29, Su-27, and JF-17

There is a very good reason why your tier-system is not in popular use. The differences between two planes in the same tier are immense. You have chosen to categorise various different types of planes based completely on your personal disposition (and bias).

It seems to me that you are a fan of big jets. You are American, so that's not really a surprise. A marketing professor once told me, "when you want to market something to the Americans, emphasize on how big it is". I thought it was a fat-joke at the time, but its funny because its true.

Big, fat jets have their own issues (just think of a big, fat car). There is a reason why the USAF and the USN are big fans of small, light-weight aircrafts such as the F-16, F/A 18 and so on. Also, you seem to underestimate the Chinese and their engineers. That, too, is understandable coming from an American. I think what you should do, however, is pop-by your nearest Engineering university and see what ethnicity the majority of the students are. Then, check who the top students are. You will be un-pleasantly surprised.

All of that being said, I would not dream of comparing the FC-20 (J-10B) to any other aircraft without having credible proof. I am just sick of people belittling the Chinese and Pakistanis.

Edit: You were thanked by moscow. He, too, holds a shallow view of the Chinese.

 

[spurdozer]

a few things

tier 1:

-F-22, JSF

tier 2:

-Rafael, Typhoon, MKI, F/A-18, F-15, Mig-35(or Mig-29 SMT)

tier 3:

-MKK, F-16, Gripen, J-10A/B, LCA, M2K, Mig-29, Su-27, and JF-17

MWAAHAHAHAHAHa. This is the funniest thing I've ever read in my life sir.

It's hilarious to compare a Made in China TV to a Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) jet.

You say India has better partners for LCA like Russia and ISrael. But what you forget is that China also borrowed ready-made technology from Russia. which according to you has 80 years of experience in making jets.

You say J-10B is a paper jet. No, it is in testing phase and if that is the reason for putting J-10B in third tier. Than according to your assumptions F-35 has to be in the third Tier too.

Another thing We the makers of JF-17 consider it to be inferior to the F-16s and according to you JF-17 is equal to our frontline fighters like F-16s and J-10 A/Bs.

We all know that American and European technology is much superior than their russian counterparts and the chinese ones ( which are actually based on the russian technology) but don't consider it a piece of junk.

 

[notorious_eagle]

You are right, China has 20 years of experience building planes. Chinese economy opened upto the world 20 years ago, look how fast they have caught up with the rest of the world. Chinese have invested massive amounts of money in R&D and that is why they have been progressing soo quickly. Europeans, Americans and Russians definitely have more experience but i reckon in the next 30 years the Chinese will catch up in every possible way. You have disregarded J10 as if its some 3rd generation aircraft, my suggestion to you would be to wait and see when the J10B arrives. It will blow your mind apart when you will learn about its capabilities, PLAAF pilots have already nailed J11 from J10A. Its about time you give the Chinese the respect they deserve; if i would have asked you whether China would be an economic powerhouse 20 years ago you would have probably laughed at me. The same goes for their aviation, the Chinese are very secretive about their aviation industry but very soon you will realize their true capability.

 

[PAFAce]

i do not have a biased view, but in today's world the only thing that matters for A/C is electronics.

I am an Electrical Engineering student, and even I won't agree with that statement. Electronics are an extremely important part of today's aircrafts, but to call them 'the only thing that matters' is unbelievable.

correct me if i'm wrong, but bigger plane with 2 engines means more power and electric generation capability, which means better more powerful radar, better avionics, and better EW capability.

Agreed. But a they come with their own set of issues as well. I told you, there is a reason why the Americans and other countries have a love affair with F-16s and F/A-18s.

my friend bought a new plasma tv a few years ago, it wasn't a name brand and was one of those bargain brands (forgot which 1), but it was made in china and cost 200 bucks less. after the warranty period it just died. during that same period my neighbor brought a tv from a name brand, to this day it works like its brand new.

that's similar to the difference between chinese and Western/Russian A/C

Wow. Where do I start with this analogy.

china has a lot less experience, and j-10/jf-17 were developed in 20/10 years. compare that with 30 years for rafael, typhoon, f-22

Agree 100%.

The original Ford GT40 was made to compete with the Ferrari in the Le Mans after Enzo Ferrari ditched a joint-venture with Ford at the last minute. Ford, outraged, pulled his best engineers together and said simply this, make a car that will destroy Ferrari. A year later, Ford GT was born, and trounced the Ferrari and other competition, winning the Le Mans 6 years in a row. The fact that the J-10/JF-17 were made quickly could simply be a result of an urgent need and more manpower devoted to the respective projects. It says absolutely nothing about its quality.

lca too is developed with an industry with less than 10 years of experience. but compared to the chinese they have much better help options open to them and although lca wont be the best, it will definately be comparable to j-10.

I have not yet heard an Indian make that claim. You clearly said that to tick people off, and surely, do not actually believe that. The topic of the LCA has been exhausted, and only once have I read anything this outrageous (on an Indian defense forum, comparing the LCA to the Eurofighter). Comparing the LCA to the JF-17, on the other hand, is okay as their roles are similar for their home Air Forces. I will give you the benefit ofthe doubt and assume you accidently wrote J-10 instead of the JF-17.

All this being said. I do not want this conversation to disintegrate any further and turn into a youtube style bashing contest. We shall agree to disagree.

 

[Hayreddin]

1: J f17 thunder is our future platform and in next 5 to 10 years it will reduce our dependence on other countries ,,,,,,,

2: we dont need jets like SU 30,35 OR others like that because of our area and land size of our country ,,,,,,,,,,,,,to elaborate my point i will give example of locking on su 30 by our mirage ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

3: countries like CHINA and PAKISTAN dont show their real power and this strategy scared enemy alot,,,,,,,,,,,as in mid 90s AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE compare (secret project of J10 at that time )to f 18 ,,,,,so be carefull during underestimating CHINESE TECHNOLOGY ,

4AKISTAN missile is latest and one of the most better one in the world ,IF WE CAN make CRIUSE MISSILE ,BALLISTIC MISSILES ,,,,,etc etc ,,,,,,,,,and you thing our scientist havnt work on SAM technology and air to air missiles ,,,,,,,,,????


WE ARE FAR MORE ADVANCE IN DEFENCE TECHNOLOGY WHETHER ITS LAND OR AIR , I HOPE SO THERE WILL BE NO WAR BUT IF IT HAPPENS THAN WORLD WILL BE ASTONISHED O SEE OUR POWER ,ITS NOT THE IMAGINATIVE OR OPTIMISTIC THOUGHT ,,,,,,,ITS BASED ON REALITY ,,,,,,,,,,,

SO DONT WORRY GUYS ,,,,,,,

 

[Luftwaffe]

Dear folks J-10 next version would be not a fantasy plane but rather a more refined design etc..Better radar, better engine, maybe wings are designed like mixture of EF-2000/Rafale canopy like F-16, better airframe that's all and maybe F-16 blk52 like conformal fuel tanks are added after Pakistan studies its FUTURE f-16s soon to arrive...that's all this will make J-10 efficient and bring it some what closer to EF2000/Rafale league...perhaps towards 2015 in their league in next 6 years.

 

[sky17]

One important thing that pakistan have no plan to attack on any country. Its basic policy is defencive. As regards as our defence is concerned f-16 bl 52, fc-20, jf-17, f7 and mirages will do a lot for our defence.

Moreover Pakistan should work on ground to air missiles to destroy enemies jets on high altitudes.

Pakistan is doing well and have remarkable experience and achievement in missile technology so after combing all these elements our country defence will be more solid.

 

[spurdozer]

superdefender sir, if you think that plasma TV is the measure of comparison than I can assure you Russian TV's are not so popular in the markets.

 

[batmannow]

DEFENSIVE policy era is gone, & PAF should go ahead!
PAF has to adopt a PARRALEL policy , in which any agressor country , should be attacked with full force, or PAF sensing any threat against pakiastani state, can be act in advance?

therefore, in my week view, it would be very best in pakistan intersts to get J-10's with the combination of J-11b's (ADVANCED FLANKERS) in its inventry!
with the induction of J-10's , the question would been answerd to the likes of TYPHON, RAFELE, thus we need a plate form to support them, & J-11b's surly can do the job pretty well, also its the most viable option in my veiw because its easy to get , less price tags & no stoppge of spares?

J--10s(75) +J--11Bs(50)
F--16s(80 to 100)a/b/c/d blk52! +JF--17 THUNDERS(100)
F--7s+PGs (80 to 100) upgraded + upgraded MIRRAGES rose 111, 5(80 to 100)
with the rest of other flyable birds , can be a force to avoide, i guss this inventry can give us at least 5 to 7 years to reach on a point, where we can look for new beast ?