The Nuclear Battlefield - India vs Pakistan

[Windjammer]

Why let the good times wait, General Kapoor should relive General Choudhary's banter , this time issuing victory celebrations in Karachi Gymkhana.

 

[vsdoc]

Chalo bye guys .... see you on the 27th now.

Be good!

And watch your back ..... LOL

Cheers, Doc

 

[karan.1970]

Well the same goes for you, how can you claim that the Pakistani members here are promoting the Turk-Pak Relations based on the technological facts only. Well that is why I asked you to go do some resaearch, and then post. And there are many articles here on PDF for you to go through that will explain the relationship in detial.

My objection was on calling the post devoid of common sense. Not on any other aspect. I have not used any derogatory comment in my post. I have made an observation which you may find incorrect, but then that is difference of opinion.

 

[Rain]

First of all, it seems that Indian Defense Establishment is listening to the author( he wrote this in 2001 and cold start came into being in 2004). That makes this article very valuable for Pakistan Defense Establishment. I like to request the author to comeup with some more articles. And Please remember that you can plan how to start a war but you seldom can control it's course.

Secondly it make me sure that we are very safe from any Indian Agression in near future. We can delay their agression even more if we establish and demonstrate a Third Strike Corps!!(which Some believe is already in offing).
as Indians have to wait till 2020 to reach the level of efficient manuering in Battle field as mentioned in the article.

Thirdly, and most importantly what is the Objective of War for india?(For me it is surprising that indian dont know what to do with Pakistan) Do they want settlement of Kashmir Issue or liberation of sindhn balochistan and NWFP.

 

[karan.1970]

Thirdly, and most importantly what is the Objective of War for india?(For me it is surprising that indian dont know what to do with Pakistan) Do they want settlement of Kashmir Issue or liberation of sindhn balochistan and NWFP.

In my personal view, none of the above. All these scenarios will only come into play if India IS ATTACKED covertly or overtly.

 

[Rain]

In my personal view, none of the above. All these scenarios will only come into play if India IS ATTACKED covertly or overtly.

My question still stands, what will be Objective Of War????

 

[rastor]

How does Pakistan prevent this:
1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

I have observed discussions elsewhere and I have come across some very knowledgeable sources point out that SAMs and high altitude missile batteries are in-effective (more so if aircraft is stealth). They are usually used to protect high value ground assets rather than attrition-ing air-forces......

Anyways these systems are very expensive can pak afford 200?

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

The Indian navy would just need to blockade karachi & gwader. Is your comment based on weak points in InNavy.... like the anti-air warfare capability....? Can these sunburn missiles be effective IN assets that prevent pak's ships from getting out not the ones that "attack" pak coast-line.

Thanks.

 

[Condor]

ek-indian:
Apologies for the delayed response.
What makes you think I do not respect all of them as my seniors here. And value their contributions on this forum.
When does a criticism, a different pov, an opposing view, harm the high and mighty. Do you not criticise your Govts, Prime Ministers, Ministers, leaders for what you perceive as their failures. Such criticisms only serve them to adjust to the new realities bubbling beneath them. Nothing is fixed, everything transient and we have to constantly consciously shift to get a better view.
Those who are at the bottom rung of this board need not follow the mind set of their seniors here. Any one can blaze a new trail if he uses his imagination that appeals to many others.

I am happy to know of your interest in my post and that you have been following me. Keep going there maybe more surprises in store for you.

About your Doctor, the lesser said the better. Just one visit to his local Naval Base has done wonders for him. I wish for him to visit other services facilities all over your country as well.

 

[Mercenary]

I have observed discussions elsewhere and I have come across some very knowledgeable sources point out that SAMs and high altitude missile batteries are in-effective (more so if aircraft is stealth). They are usually used to protect high value ground assets rather than attrition-ing air-forces......

Anyways these systems are very expensive can pak afford 200?

Then why is Israel so concerned about Russia selling the Iranians the S-300 even though Israel posses the most advanced Air Force in the middle east.

The Indian navy would just need to blockade karachi & gwader. Is your comment based on weak points in InNavy.... like the anti-air warfare capability....? Can these sunburn missiles be effective IN assets that prevent pak's ships from getting out not the ones that "attack" pak coast-line.

Thanks.

These Sunburn Missiles are hypersonic anti-ship missiles designed by Russians to take out American Carrier Battle groups. They are designed to defeat the anti-missile counter measures on warships.

 

[karan.1970]

My question still stands, what will be Objective Of War????

I dont claim to be privy to Indian Military's detailed doctrine but i would expect Retaliation and active defence.. The aim will not be capture of land but to inflict maximum possible damage on the opposing force.

 

[pakpower]

From your post,you seems to agree that 99% of Indians and 93% of pakistanis will servive the nuclear war. And Indian armed forces will remain intact to wage a war.

Then, what is the use of usual rant of Nuclear card by Pakistanis, Indian forces will crush the Pakistani forces and we will provide the freedom to Sindh, Baluchistan, Pakhtonistan etc. And take back our part of Kashmir occupied by pakistan hence there will be peace in the South Asia and haven of terrorist will turn into a peaceful place in the world.

You guys don't have the guts to do that you fear most when the word war comes out. So will you stop your sick thoughts and don't even try to post such idiotic post again.

 

[Spitfighter]

I don't agree with your analysis.

Thank you for your sensible and analytical posts throughout the thread.

First the Balochistan Insurgency is greatly exaggerated. Balochis do not want to separate from Pakistan but want their rights respected. And nothing will unify the country more than facing a conventional threat from India.

Agreed.

The time isn't right, India needs to closely watch the situation in Pakistan. IMO, the Pakistani economy will fall into complete disarray if the militants begin targeting Karachi, Pakistan's commercial hub. Pakistan or the US may also open up a second front against the Afghan Taliban in Balochistan, further weakening the internal situation. Timing IMO is everything. India will have to squeeze the WoT for everything its worth if we are to succeed in our strategic objectives.

If it comes to war, India will engage in battle of attrition in Kashmir and Northern Punjab and mount massive air strikes to take out key targets in Pakistan.

In your honest opinion, does India have the means to significantly degrade the Pakistani military? After all we are still in the process of acquiring much of our equipment. Obviously I'm assuming that a war will break out in the near future before Pakistan can stabilize its internal situation or receive any 'game changers' (ABM's) from China.

Pakistani Air Force will fly in a defensive formation but they will be overwhelmed by the sheer size of the Indian Air Force. Pakistan by not investing in high altitude Missile Batteries will suffer heavily as large parts of its military infrastructure will get destroyed. Pakistani Forces in the north will dig in while ferocious border clashes continue.

Air superiority is vital to the military's plans, India will thus have to act before Pakistan can induct large numbers of JF-17's or F-16's.

In the South, Indian Navy will attempt to blockade Pakistani ports to prevent the Arab countries from reinforcing Pakistan. Pakistan's Naval Forces will try to keep the sea lanes open but Indian Air Craft Carriers and Submarines will heavily Damage the Pakistani Navy. Pakistan has invested in Harpoon missiles which should score some direct hits on the Indians. Pakistan needs to invest in Sunburn Missile Technology from China to really punish the Indian Navy.

correct me if I'm wrong but I think some of our latest destroyers have a defense against anti ship missiles. If so, how effective are these defenses? Harpoons are deadly nonetheless so I'm assuming the Naval air wing will have to be on its toes.

Overall, half of the Pakistani Navy, most of its Air Force is largely destroyed. China might rush in Equipment which should make the Army losses less severe but a conventional war with India will badly maul the Pakistani Military.

That's the idea, its been 6 decades and India and Pakistan are still playing cat and mouse games with each other. The war will seek to permanently confine our disputes to the diplomatic arena.

How does Pakistan prevent this:

Money and time. If this strategy is to work India will have to act before Pakistan can get its act together at home. If the economy recovers and Pakistan invests billions in building up its defenses, the war will do nothing more than ensure another 60 years of hostility.

1 - Investing in high altitude missile batteries like the S-300. Since each battery contains 4 missiles, and lets say there is a 50% chance they take out Indian Air Fighters and there are 1,000 Indian AirCraft, that means Pakistan needs at least 200 S-300 Type Missile Batteries.

The Russians aren't selling to Iran, I doubt they'd sell the system to Pakistan, especially when we have so many deals in the pipeline. What other alternatives does Pakistan have?

2 - To Neutralize the Indian Navy, Pakistan cannot wage a Naval Battle against Indian Navy. It needs land based anti-ship missiles with long distances such as the Sunburn Missiles. 100-200 of these Missiles can easily deter the Indian Navy.

Money is an issue, and wouldn't these missiles be vulnerable if the IAF manages to achieve some semblance of air superiority?

3 - The hardest task comes neutralizing the RAPID Divisions in Southern Punjab. Pakistan has no choice but to create more Armored and Anti-Tank Forces. Adding 1,000 Tanks, atleast 2 Brigades of Anti-Tank Forces, 2 Brigades of Anti-Aircraft forces and fight a defensive battle and getting more Gunships like Cobra and Apache which should contain the Indian Thrust.

That's a little unrealistic given Pakistan defense budget and the number of countries who are willing to supply it with military hardware. The gunships will be out of the question if India buys from the US, we are buying a small airforce from them after all.

Lastly, how much of this can the PA realistically achieve in the next year or two? I sincerely believe that we won't have to wait for too long before India and Pakistan go to war again. It'll only take one successful terrorist strike and the hawks will finally have their way.

 

[ek_indian]

What makes you think I do not respect all of them as my seniors here. And value their contributions on this forum.

I never intent to say so.

When does a criticism, a different pov, an opposing view, harm the high and mighty. Do you not criticise your Govts, Prime Ministers, Ministers, leaders for what you perceive as their failures. Such criticisms only serve them to adjust to the new realities bubbling beneath them. Nothing is fixed, everything transient and we have to constantly consciously shift to get a better view.
Those who are at the bottom rung of this board need not follow the mind set of their seniors here. Any one can blaze a new trail if he uses his imagination that appeals to many others.

Agreed.
My point was, being anti-rant does not mean pro-Indian or pro-Pakistani. These are very senior members and their post has lot of information. They talk sense and thus should not be bracket with pro-X. Anyways if you are offended, I regret.

I am happy to know of your interest in my post and that you have been following me. Keep going there maybe more surprises in store for you.

Waiting to hear more from you.

 

[Condor]

^^^

"Agreed.
My point was, being anti-rant does not mean pro-Indian or pro-Pakistani. These are very senior members and their post has lot of information. They talk sense and thus should not be bracket with pro-X. Anyways if you are offended, I regret."

Reply ek_Indian:

What does being Pro-India mean to you? Not something to look upto, right?
And why not? What is so wrong in being a Pro-Indian? Tell me.
I am Pro_Indian you are Pro_India as there are countless others all around the world, not to mention the billion plus Indian population. India is a great country, a great civilisation.
BTW have you also considered that the Seniors here on this board may be Pro-Indian and Pro-Pakistan at the same time? Does it mean anything to you?
To me and them it means PEACE.
Is it a good thing or bad?
And how bout if the bottom line was to tweak the tail of the Heavy weights in good humor.
Get rid of this word rant – used extensively here, needlessly… it has lost its lustre.
And no I don’t get offended by criticism.

You guys are all great, even your 'Cheers Doc' - I know I do get on his nerves but that is the way I am.

Cheerio

 

[pakpower]

Thank you for your sensible and analytical posts throughout the thread.



Agreed.

The time isn't right, India needs to closely watch the situation in Pakistan. IMO, the Pakistani economy will fall into complete disarray if the militants begin targeting Karachi, Pakistan's commercial hub. Pakistan or the US may also open up a second front against the Afghan Taliban in Balochistan, further weakening the internal situation. Timing IMO is everything. India will have to squeeze the WoT for everything its worth if we are to succeed in our strategic objectives.


In your honest opinion, does India have the means to significantly degrade the Pakistani military? After all we are still in the process of acquiring much of our equipment. Obviously I'm assuming that a war will break out in the near future before Pakistan can stabilize its internal situation or receive any 'game changers' (ABM's) from China.



Air superiority is vital to the military's plans, India will thus have to act before Pakistan can induct large numbers of JF-17's or F-16's.



correct me if I'm wrong but I think some of our latest destroyers have a defense against anti ship missiles. If so, how effective are these defenses? Harpoons are deadly nonetheless so I'm assuming the Naval air wing will have to be on its toes.



That's the idea, its been 6 decades and India and Pakistan are still playing cat and mouse games with each other. The war will seek to permanently confine our disputes to the diplomatic arena.



Money and time. If this strategy is to work India will have to act before Pakistan can get its act together at home. If the economy recovers and Pakistan invests billions in building up its defenses, the war will do nothing more than ensure another 60 years of hostility.



The Russians aren't selling to Iran, I doubt they'd sell the system to Pakistan, especially when we have so many deals in the pipeline. What other alternatives does Pakistan have?



Money is an issue, and wouldn't these missiles be vulnerable if the IAF manages to achieve some semblance of air superiority?



That's a little unrealistic given Pakistan defense budget and the number of countries who are willing to supply it with military hardware. The gunships will be out of the question if India buys from the US, we are buying a small airforce from them after all.

Lastly, how much of this can the PA realistically achieve in the next year or two? I sincerely believe that we won't have to wait for too long before India and Pakistan go to war again. It'll only take one successful terrorist strike and the hawks will finally have their way.

What is wrong with you do you like war you sick person and all those who talks about the consiquences of wars what the hell is wrong with you guys anyways.

Baita jubb bhi agar war hoee naan too sub saee pehlae tumharee hii phataee gee.