THE MYTH OF NORTH AFRICA AS ARAB,UNCOVERED

[Mamluk]

If you think the vast majority of cultural elements in North Africa have come from a mythical place in the Arabian Peninsula, then I'm afraid this discussion can't continue any further lol.

Mythical place? When have I ever said that.

North Africans and Arabs share a common Arabo-Islamic culture.

Have you ever visited both places? No.

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they resort to argumentum ad hominem as a last-ditch desperate attempt to score a minuscule victory.

Isn't that what you are doing here?

you're neither Canadian nor from Canada.

 

[The SC]

By the same token, I guess your passionate defense of anything and everything related to the GCC means you're neither Canadian nor from Canada.

Unsurprisingly, whenever people sense they aren't intellectually capable of having constructive debates, they resort to argumentum ad hominem as a last-ditch desperate attempt to score a minuscule victory.

I am Arab Muslim Canadian.. What is your point?

By the same token, I guess your passionate defense of anything and everything related to the GCC means you're neither Canadian nor from Canada.

Unsurprisingly, whenever people sense they aren't intellectually capable of having constructive debates, they resort to argumentum ad hominem as a last-ditch desperate attempt to score a minuscule victory.

We are not here to score victories, we want to debate logically and based on facts alone, when people tend to be emotional, no words can hide their feelings and thoughts because they appear through their words,,

No, @Sinan (or maybe another Turkish guy?) mentioned she is a white woman living in Kuwait and also has a personal blog.

I said that because I have noticed that she agrees with most what hindus say about the GCC or Islam.. it is just too often..
On topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Here is how the world looked during Roman Empire Days

As you can see this area was a single domain, so people between the regions travelled freely between the areas
At some point the civiliazation may have pushed the African (Black Kingdoms south in older part of history)

So it is established ........................ Peopel Travelled Freely between what we call Europe / North Africa/ Part of Arabia


During the Abbasiad Dynasties , we see more intermingling between the Tribes of Arabia with North Africa (the people already inter mingled long time before )

As you can see , it is same group of people still intermingling may be the name of regions is changing but practically the folks are generally same brand / type



Now , the folks in Europs generally used different Terminology Moors /Muslims/ Arabs to refer to the folks who controlled certain areas of Europe


Sometime around 1500-1600 , control was lost for Muslims in SPAIN , and the new king ordered
Explulsion of all muslims from Spain


The Expulsion of the Moriscos (Spanish: Expulsión de los moriscos, Catalan: Expulsió dels moriscos) was decreed by King Philip III of Spain on April 9, 1609. The Moriscos were descendants of Spain's Muslim population that converted to Christianity by coercion or by Royal Decree in the early 16th century.

When reverse migration took place , the folks generally returned back to North Africa
so you can see the folks / generation that went back to North Africa took a bit more of the Diversity with them back to Africa

This was a over night thing , people slept as citizens , when they woke up they were rounded up and kicked out into ships and off to North Africa


When Spanish Kicked out Muslims , they ended up settleing into what we know call Ottoman Emprire, Ottomons controlled lot of territory and Spain was no longer a priority
and folks who moved to North Africa gradually settled peacefully into new Empire

So Arabs / North Africans they freely moved across all regions depending on their wealth and capacity to travel across Empire


It also seems that apart from Dominant Ottoman Empire , there were also other Empires and Dynasties of the time which also housed some Muslims

Arabic was a prominent language and it got adapted , just like now a days English has become quite popular



A Tit bit for our Pakistani brothers , while all this was happening in world
On South Asian Side there was the "Sur Empie"

The empire was founded by Sher Shah Suri, an ethnic Pashtun of the tribal house of Sur, who supplanted the Mughal dynasty as rulers of North India during the reign of the relatively ineffectual second Mughal Humayun



Bottom Line:
People migrate / travel / get kicked out or move by own choice , inter mingle , so it is quite natural for DNA to show different traits

People in these areas all travelled freely and intermingled openly across the years
Most of Islamic civilizations and even Christian lands had people speaking all sort of languages
Arabic was a prominent langauge so certainly its influence was felt and still is present

• Arab Nationalism was a product of WW1 tactical move, and that was create around late 1800 to weaken control of Ottoman Empire over its Territories. Prior to that Muslims generally related to their own respective Empires they were part of there was hardly any distinguishment based on language. The success of Nationalism movement was based around taking advantage of poverty in Empire, use its citizens against it.100% pure military tactical move by planners and strategic thinkers who were enemy to Empire.

• Modern time we see it as Arab Spring (Tunis, Egypt , Syria) , ie use the citizens of the nation to attack its own rulers and the end result benefits external enitity, that is all Arab Nationalism was / is. The same approach was used against Ottoman Empire many centuries ago with great success.

"Either you are a muslim or you are not that is they only reality , most of these nationalities we now know off all were created after WW1 or WW2 time period
"​

 

[The SC]

Here is how the world looked during Roman Empire Days

As you can see this area was a single domain, so people between the regions travelled freely between the areas
At some point the civiliazation may have pushed the African (Black Kingdoms south in older part of history)

So it is established ........................ Peopel Travelled Freely between what we call Europe / North America / Part of Arabia


During the Abbasiad Dynasties , we see more intermingling between the Tribes of Arabia with North Africa (the people already inter mingled long time before )

"Europe / North America / Part of Arabia"
You mean North Africa..

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

"Europe / North America / Part of Arabia"
You mean North Africa..

Thank you corrected my typo

 

[Taygibay]

Well, to refer to Kuwaïti Girl's post that began a sad spat,
and incorporating SC's area evolution through maps, one
can see how linguistics are central to the Berber case.

So the region was a highway for conquerors, granted, but
that also means it was always somewhat united under them.
Thus languages would change over time as per governors.
The last shift was however a break in colonization and the
following linguistic unification a popular/political reaction, not
a physical historical conquest. Still, it perennializes the area.

Now that is broken in part by this distribution :

​

Those being the Berber languages with a specific spread
that does not follow the Arabic one as the Niger case of
something like 1.5% speakers of it proves. Check this ...

where Arabic is clearly the last winner in regional politics ...​

... but also where earlier Afro-Asiatic languages subsist?
One of these, recent in terminology ( 17th c. ) but old by
origin ( mesolithic ) and long recorded in writing ( B.C. )
was formalized ... guess when ... at the exact same time
as the Muslim, and "accompagnyingly" Arabic, expansion occurred!!!

So it had to run concurrently and somewhat underlying to it?

And yet, the Berber identity throughout its distribution, in
big part thanks to Tuareg has endured with the use of it.
So of course they are a people as are Kurds and others
even though forgotten by the modern nation concept. And
actually, it is that modern nation that eventually provides
the basis for recognition of the language and population.

So I wouldn't quite reduce the Arabic world to its language
but it is important to note that Arabic the tongue has a
political use that dilutes its genomic & cultural reality.

Have a great day all, Tay.

P.S. That 1B4TL was premature, sorry!

 

[punit]

I am Arab Muslim Canadian.. What is your point?


We are not here to score victories, we want to debate logically and based on facts alone, when people tend to be emotional, no words can hide their feelings and thoughts because they appear through their words,,


I said that because I have noticed that she agrees with most what hindus say about the GCC or Islam.. it is just too often..
On topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

hindus .. you mean Indians. right? Indians hardly interferes in matters related to GCC/Islam unless dragged into.
They indulge with Pakistani and chinese only.

 

[AmirPatriot]

Chuckles .... depends what you call "end well". From where I am sat it's looking good.

I'm just waiting for the imminent assertion by certain members that not only North Africa, but the whole Northern Spiral of the Milky Way is in fact Arab.

 

[venu309]

I am Arab Muslim Canadian.. What is your point?


We are not here to score victories, we want to debate logically and based on facts alone, when people tend to be emotional, no words can hide their feelings and thoughts because they appear through their words,,


I said that because I have noticed that she agrees with most what hindus say about the GCC or Islam.. it is just too often..
On topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

Firstly you sound more like a Pakistani than an Arab. Secondly, just because @Kuwaiti Girl has opinions which doesn't match with yours, you accuse her of being a hindu or Indian.
I believe she is an Ayam from Kuwait.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

North Africa isn't culturally Arab either.

It's linguistically Arab, but culturally North African.

The same goes for Egypt, the Levant, and Mesopotamia.

The only place that's "culturally Arab" is the Arabian Peninsula.

The Arab World is simply a linguistic community that shares a common language, that's all.

That is very clear summation of the subject matter. Anybody who has even remotely had any interaction will know that North African culture is more Mediteranean then Arab. You cannot possible compare Tunisian's with Omani's. The only common ground is language (even that I believe is slightly differant) and religion. The North Africans even differances from each other (less so) for example Algerians are differant from Egyptians.

The Syrians, Lebanese are more similar to Turks then they are with Saudi's. Like you say the speakers of Arabic can be classed broadly into three categories.

1. North African are mostly Mediteranean.
2. Leventine (Syrian, Lebanese etc)
3. true Arabs of the Arabian Peninisula who are the actual ones with the oil.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Where is the data and findings? What is the source and where is the link to that 23-sentence long "article"?

The "findings" (dubious if not an outright lie) in that 23-sentence long "article" are contrary to the genetic findings in almost every genetic paper and research published on this topic so far.

Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa​

"In a recent publication, Bosch et al. (2001) reported on Y-chromosome variation in populations from northwestern (NW) Africa and the Iberian peninsula. They observed a high degree of genetic homogeneity among the NW African Y chromosomes of Moroccan Arabs, Moroccan Berbers, and Saharawis, leading the authors to hypothesize that “the Arabization and Islamization of NW Africa, starting during the 7th century ad, … [were] cultural phenomena without extensive genetic replacement” (p. 1023). H71 (Eu10) was found to be the second-most-frequent haplogroup in that area. Following the hypothesis of Semino et al. (2000), the authors suggested that this haplogroup had spread out from the Middle East with the Neolithic wave of advance. Our recent findings (Nebel et al. 2000, 2001), however, suggest that the majority of Eu10 chromosomes in NW Africa are due to recent gene flow caused by the migration of Arabian tribes in the first millennium of the Common Era (ce).

In the sample of NW Africans (Bosch et al. 2001), 16 (9.1%) of the 176 Y chromosomes studied were of Eu10 (H71 on a haplogroup 9 background). Of these 16 chromosomes, 14 formed a compact microsatellite network: 7 individuals shared a single haplotype, and the haplotypes of the other 7 were one or two mutational steps removed. This low diversity may be indicative of a recent founder effect. Where did these chromosomes come from?

The highest frequency of Eu10 (30%–62.5%) has been observed so far in various Moslem Arab populations in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001). The most frequent Eu10 microsatellite haplotype in NW Africans is identical to a modal haplotype (DYS19-14, DYS388-17, DYS390-23, DYS391-11, DYS392-11, DYS393-12) of Moslem Arabs who live in a small area in the north of Israel, the Galilee (Nebel et al. 2000). This haplotype, which is present in the Galilee at 18.5%, was termed the modal haplotype of the Galilee (MH Galilee) (Nebel et al. 2000). Notably, it is absent from two distinct non-Arab Middle Eastern populations, Jews and Muslim Kurds, both of whom have significant Eu10 frequencies—18% and 12%, respectively (Nebel et al. 2001). Interestingly, this modal haplotype is also the most frequent haplotype (11 [∼41%] of 27 individuals) in the population from the town of Sena, in Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Its single-step neighbor is the most common haplotype of the Yemeni Hadramaut sample (5 [∼10%] of 49 chromosomes; Thomas et al. 2000). The presence of this particular modal haplotype at a significant frequency in three separate geographic locales (NW Africa, the Southern Levant, and Yemen) makes independent genetic-drift events unlikely.

It should be noted that the Yemeni samples (Thomas et al. 2000) were not typed for the binary markers (p12f2 and M172) that define Eu10. However, both Yemeni modal haplotypes are present on a haplogroup background compatible with Eu10. These haplotypes carry a DYS388 allele with a high number of repeats (i.e., 17). High repeat numbers of DYS388, ⩾15, were found to occur almost exclusively on Hg9, which comprises Eu9 and Eu10. Furthermore, in a sample of a six Middle Eastern populations, chromosomes with 17 repeats are frequent (40%) in Eu10 and rare (7%) in Eu9 (Nebel et al. 2001).

The term “Arab,” as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century bce (Eph'al 1984). Originally referring to nomads of central and northern Arabia, the term “Arabs” later came to include the sedentary population of the south, which had its own language and culture. The term thus covers two different stocks that became linguistically and culturally unified yet retained consciousness of their discrete origins (Grohmann et al. 1960; Rentz 1960; Caskel 1966, pp. 19–47; Goldziher 1967, pp. 45–97, 164–190; Beeston 1995; also see Peters 1999). Migrations of southern Arabian tribes northwards have been recorded mainly since the 3d century ce. These tribes settled in various places in central and northern Arabia, as well as in the Fertile Crescent, including areas that are now part of Israel (Dussaud 1955; Ricci 1984). The emergence of Islam in the 7th century ce furthered the unification of the Arabian tribal populations. This unified Arab-Islamic community engaged in a large movement of expansion, the Fertile Crescent and Egypt being the first areas to have been conquered. It is very difficult to trace the tribal composition of the Muslim armies, but it is known that tribes of Yemeni origin formed the bulk of those Muslim contingents that conquered Egypt in the middle of the 7th century ce. Egypt was the primary base for raids further west into the Maghrib. The conquest of North Africa was difficult and took a few decades to complete (Abun-Nasr 1987). The region was militarily and administratively attached to Egypt until the beginning of the 8th century ce. Arab tribes of northern origin entered North Africa as well, both as troops and as migrants. A major wave of migration of such tribes, the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym, occurred during the 11th century ce (Abun-Nasr 1987). Thus, the Arabs, both southern (Yemeni) and northern, added to the heterogeneous Maghribi ethnic melting pot.

Little is known of the origins of the indigenous population of the Maghrib, the Berbers, except that they have always been a composite people. After the 8th century ce, a process of Arabization affected the bulk of the Berbers, while the Arab-Islamic culture and population absorbed local elements as well. Under the unifying framework of Islam, on the one hand, and as a result of the Arab settlement, on the other, a fusion took place that resulted in a new ethnocultural entity all over the Maghrib. In addition, Berber tribes sometimes claimed Arab descent in order to enhance their prestige. For example, the Berber nomadic tribe of the western Sahara, the Lamtuna, claimed descent from one of the South Arabian eponyms, Himyar. One of the chiefs of this Berber tribe, Lamtuna, is sometimes referred to as Saharawi, meaning “one of the nomads” or “one who comes from the Sahara” (Ibn al-Athir 1898, p. 462; Ibn Khallikan 1972, pp. 113, 128–129; Lewicki 1986). In Arabic sources, however, the name Saharawi is seldom used and does not seem to refer to a specific genealogical group. In light of these historical data, it is not surprising to find, among the Berbers and contemporary Saharawis of northern Africa, Y chromosomes that may have been introduced by recurrent waves of invaders from the Arabian Peninsula.

These documented historical events, together with the finding of a particular Eu10 haplotype in Yemenis, Palestinians, and NW Africans, are suggestive of a recent common origin of these chromosomes. Remarkably, the only non-Arabs in whom this haplotype has been observed to date are the Berbers (Bosch et al. 2001). It appears that the Eu10 chromosome pool in NW Africa is derived not only from early Neolithic dispersions but also from recent expansions from the Arabian peninsula.

American Society of Human Genetics"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

Also I was not aware of their being an "Arab" or "North African" genome considering the fact that all haplogroups predate all living ethnic groups by millennia and given that all ethnic groups are social constructs.

Anyway this runs contrary to ground realities which show the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)

Basically across the entire Arab world (which shares a millennia long common Semitic and Afro-Asiatic history and ancestry that predates the Neolithic period and all existing ethnic groups in the Arab world) the same haplogroups are found. The only difference is their frequency but Arabs cluster with each other more than any other people on all genetic tests which is not strange given history.


Genetics

Haplogroup J and E1b1b are the most frequent Y-DNA haplogroups in the Arab world. E1b1b is the most frequent paternal clade among the populations in the western part of the Arab world (Maghreb, Nile Valley and Horn of Africa), whereas haplogroup J is the most frequent paternal clade toward the east (Arabian peninsula and Near East). Other less common haplogroups are R1a, R1b, G, I, L and T.[304][305][306][307][308][309][310][311][312][313][314][315][316]


J-M267

J-M172

E-M215

Listed here are the human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups in Arabian peninsula, Mashriq/Levant, Maghreb and Nile Valley.[317][318][319][320][321][322][323] Yemeni Arabs J(82.3%), E1b1b (12.9%) and E1b1a (3.2%).[324][325] Saudi Arabs J1 (58%), E1b1b(7.6%), E1b1a (7.6%), R1a (5.1%), T (5.1%), G (3.2%) and L (1.9%).[326][327] Emirati Arabs J (45.1%), E1b1b (11.6%), R1a (7.3%), E1b1a (5.5%), T (4.9%), R1b (4.3%) and L (3%).[324] Omani Arabs J (47.9%), E1b1b (15.7%), R1a (9.1%), T (8.3%), E1b1a (7.4%), R1b (1.7%), G (1.7%) and L (0.8%).[328] Qatari Arabs J (66.7%), R1a (6.9%), E1b1b (5.6%), E1b1a (2.8%), G (2.8%) and L (2.8%).[329][330] Lebanese Arabs J (45.2%), E1b1b (25.8%), R1a (9.7%), R1b (6.4%), G, I and I (3.2%), (3.2%), (3.2%).[331] Syrian Arabs J (58.3%),[332][333] E1b1b (12.0%), I (5.0%), R1a (10.0%) and R1b 15.0%.[331][333] Palestinian Arabs J (55.2%), E1b1b (20.3%), R1b (8.4%), I(6.3%), G (7%), R1a and T (1.4%), (1.4%).[334][335] Jordanian Arabs J (43.8%), E1b1b (26%), R1b (17.8%), G (4.1%), I (3.4%) and R1a (1.4%).[336] Iraqi Arabs J (50.6%), E1b1b (10.8%), R1b (10.8%), R1a (6.9%) and T (5.9%).[337][338] Egyptian Arabs E1b1b (36.7%) and J (32%), G (8.8%), T (8.2% R1b (4.1%), E1b1a (2.8%) and I(0.7%).[319][339] Sudanese Arabs J (47.1%), E1b1b (16.3%), R1b (15.7%) and I (3.13%).[340][341] Moroccan Arabs E1b1b (75.5%) and J1 (20.4%).[342][343] Tunisian ArabsE1b1b (49.3%), J1 (35.8%), R1b (6.8%) and E1b1a (1.4%).[344] Algerian Arabs E1b1b (54%), J1 (35%), R1b (13%).[344] Libyan Arabs E1b1b (35.88%), J (30.53%), E1b1a (8.78%), G (4.20%), R1a/R1b (3.43%) and E (1.53%).[345][346]

The mtDNA haplogroup J has been observed at notable frequencies among overall populations in the Arab world.[347] The maternal clade R0 reaches its highest frequency in the Arabian peninsula,[348] while K and T(specifically subclade T2) is more common in the Levant.[347] In the Nile Valley and Horn of Africa, haplogroups N1and M1;[348] in the Maghreb, haplogroups H1 and U6 are more significant.[349]

There are four principal West Eurasian autosomal DNA components that characterize the populations in the Arab world: the Arabian, Levantine, Coptic and Maghrebi components.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs#Genetics

Another thing, Arabs and Berbers are closely related people and where that long before the Arab conquests, expansion and Islam. As all genetic tests confirm. Let alone linguistic and cultural similarities.



Haplogroup J and E are those that dominate the Arab world and surprise, surprise, those two haplogroups are found at its highest frequencies in all as in all, Arab countries and populations.

Not only that almost everyone in the Arab world identifies as an Arab and follows Arab culture, excluding closely related fellow Semitic and Afro-Asiatic peoples, which is the most important thing, even if we assume that there was no genetic relation, which is obviously the case.

You go and tell an Libyan Arab that he is not an Arab and see the reaction, lol.

We share language, Islamic history as well as ancient pre-Islamic history, ancestry, culture, religion (s), geography, cuisine, climate and we look alike, excluding our Afro-Arab minorities.

I guess more than 99% of all other ethnic groups.

Case closed.

As for the thread starter:

Admit what? How can you hate somebody that you don't even freaking know? And Can you say that I hate arabs, when we share blood and culture... For a supposed learned individual, you are really lacking in social skills. Sometimes, you act like an imbecile..and you are showing it here...

Also that 55 year old Pashtun in the UK keeps trying to get my attention all the time due to his inferiority complexes.

In fact you should take a look at all genetic tests and realize that the Semitic-speaking Arabs of the Near East (Arabian Peninsula, Sham and Iraq) share more genetic affinity with the Turkic-speaking Turks of Turkey and the Iranic-speaking Iranians and Caucasian-speaking Caucasians than you as an Iranic-speaking Pashtun share with Iranic-speaking Iranians and the 3 others.

Can you spot the map below?

 

[AmirPatriot]

Told you @Kaptaan...

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Told you @Kaptaan...

 

[GiannKall]

A study about the origins of Americans would be far more interesting

 

[Aramagedon]

G dna map:

R1 dna map:

E1b dna map:

J2 dna map:

J1 dna map: