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The most realistic air superiority option for PAF

Basically it means you have zero knowledge how sams work..

:enjoy:

Had it been so easy every country would have bought 8-9 sam system and say good bye....

Everybody is doing that. China and Saudi and Turkey... The list goes on.

Countries would rather buy the S-400 at risk of American sanctions.

These sams will be taken out very quickly by opposition air force ..sam can't read low flying plans/over the horizon ..india has not many awecs even it does there are several other counter measures

What about fighter planes? And aerostats?

there arsenal of 40-60 very long range missles will be easily jammed in their terminal phase by AWECs..

Oh, AEWCS will jam missiles. Okay.

they will suppressed by SEAD missions..

How much do you know about SEAD?

we saw this happening so easily in syria..

I doubt you know what's happening in Syria.

Bigger threat will be doing strike missions in presence of sam and opposition combined strength

Even the US does not do that.

Reality is really second tier thing..india should have first solved its IAF problems

Thank you for the advice.

I have very limited patience with idiots. Don't test it

https://www.rt.com/news/439246-russian-mod-israeli-f-16-hid/

So the Russians showed second by second radar data on how the F-16s hid from radar.

I wonder if you actually understand the topic.
 
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:enjoy:
So the Russians showed second by second radar data on how the F-16s hid from radar.

I wonder if you actually understand the topic.

Did you actually read and comprehend everything? It says they hid from the S-200 system, and the data is from S-400. There is a concept called aspect angle. The two radars had different line of sight, leading to different aspect angles, allowing S-400 to monitor while they hid from S-200.

Stop polluting the thread with low quality posts.
 
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There has been considerable concern amongst Pakistani aviation enthusiasts regarding the status of PAF's inventory in the face of continuing IAF expansion.

Amongst the options available to PAF, Western options carry the risk of sanctions and OEM compromise. But even with the Russian options, the history of Afghan war hangs over any possible relationship. It's a leap of faith that PAF would need to make. So what steps can PAF take to guarantee air superiority?

We need to go back to the basics. Air superiority means assured destruction of the enemy while ensuring survival of own plane, and keeping the plane available during war time. If these criteria can be met, then it does not matter which plane an airforce flies. In a hypothetical world, if this could be achieved through a Mig-21, then the Mig-21 would be considered the air superiority fighter.

On the modern battlefield, the definition of air superiority above directly translates to better avionics, better EW, better sensors, better missiles, and better MTBF. Thus, the most assured way forward for PAF is to spend all available funds towards seting up a semiconductor fabrication backbone, along with indigenous production of avionics and radars. Indigenous designs which are guaranteed to be free of OEM compromise, and which deliver state of the art capabilities will provide air superiority.

But state of the art electronics need to be paired with top of the line missiles. Pakistan has significant indigenous capability for designing guidance systems. The need of the hour is indigenous motors that stay ahead of the rest of the world. Missiles which can be fired from stand-off ranges beyond the range of Indian radars, and which have the widest possible area of assured destruction.

The final area is flight control and engine control systems and engine maintenance. These systems will need to be insulated against any EM attack or activation of a remote kill switch. Thankfully, PAF performs local MRO of most engines in current employ. It makes sense that a wartime reserve inventory would already be in place.

In order to mitigate short term risks, PAF will have to rely on China, which has proved to be an extremely reliable partner.

The good news is that India cannot out maneuver PAF in the buying cycle to exclude it from even acquiring these capabilities. It seems the PAF leadership recognized this a while ago and initiated Azm. One hopes that this program of vital national interest would be well manged and well planned such that it starts delivering results quickly.
Electronics manufacturing of this scale has to be a national level endeavor paf alone can't do that
 
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Ghaznavi, Ghauri, Abdali and Babur are just as potent now as they were a few hundred years ago.

Our conventional forces just need to be able to prevent small scale incursions (already more than feasible) and have the ability to pack enough of a punch to inflict massive casualties upon the Indian military (again, already more than feasible). And don't worry, they will become more powerful as the economy grows.
 
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Did you actually read and comprehend everything? It says they hid from the S-200 system, and the data is from S-400. There is a concept called aspect angle. The two radars had different line of sight, leading to different aspect angles, allowing S-400 to monitor while they hid from S-200.

Stop polluting the thread with low quality posts.

I still don't think you understand what actually happened.

Are you actually saying the S-200's radar cannot differentiate between a large transport plane and fighter planes?
 
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Which war did America win in modern times against a technologically advanced enemy?

it is irrelevant

they sent Iraq packing in a few days in 1991
they conquered Afghanistan with 100 special forces soldiers in 2001

pakistan allowed usa access to airspace after 9/11. it wasn't due to charity
 
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I still don't think you understand what actually happened.

Are you actually saying the S-200's radar cannot differentiate between a large transport plane and fighter planes?

Are you trying to imply that S-200 is an x-ray machine?

it is irrelevant

they sent Iraq packing in a few days in 1991
they conquered Afghanistan with 100 special forces soldiers in 2001

pakistan allowed usa access to airspace after 9/11. it wasn't due to charity

Yep, school bully kicks a few kids and thinks she's Queen of the world. Very relevant
 
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Pakistan Air force have some very limited options …… Fist we have to come out of defensive force mentality , 2ndly new advance techs are not cheap so we also have to let go for looking "cheap options"...……….
PAF can do it only if they have will...…..
Options are very limited...….. If we replace Mirages with any heavy 4.5++ Gen that will going to cost us hell lot of money and Heavies are expensive to operate and their maintaining cost is high , In short we can not have them in numbers and having few is useless …. Better option we change Mirages with Medium bird (F-16 or J-10) ,,,,,,,,, In case of J-10 , We can have 120+ J-10 that will going to help a lot....
For 4.5++ Gen Bird we have to wait for right time (economy ) and right option (EFT or Su-35) …….. I will chose EFT …………..
 
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There has been considerable concern amongst Pakistani aviation enthusiasts regarding the status of PAF's inventory in the face of continuing IAF expansion.

Amongst the options available to PAF, Western options carry the risk of sanctions and OEM compromise. But even with the Russian options, the history of Afghan war hangs over any possible relationship. It's a leap of faith that PAF would need to make. So what steps can PAF take to guarantee air superiority?

We need to go back to the basics. Air superiority means assured destruction of the enemy while ensuring survival of own plane, and keeping the plane available during war time. If these criteria can be met, then it does not matter which plane an airforce flies. In a hypothetical world, if this could be achieved through a Mig-21, then the Mig-21 would be considered the air superiority fighter.

On the modern battlefield, the definition of air superiority above directly translates to better avionics, better EW, better sensors, better missiles, and better MTBF. Thus, the most assured way forward for PAF is to spend all available funds towards seting up a semiconductor fabrication backbone, along with indigenous production of avionics and radars. Indigenous designs which are guaranteed to be free of OEM compromise, and which deliver state of the art capabilities will provide air superiority.

But state of the art electronics need to be paired with top of the line missiles. Pakistan has significant indigenous capability for designing guidance systems. The need of the hour is indigenous motors that stay ahead of the rest of the world. Missiles which can be fired from stand-off ranges beyond the range of Indian radars, and which have the widest possible area of assured destruction.

The final area is flight control and engine control systems and engine maintenance. These systems will need to be insulated against any EM attack or activation of a remote kill switch. Thankfully, PAF performs local MRO of most engines in current employ. It makes sense that a wartime reserve inventory would already be in place.

In order to mitigate short term risks, PAF will have to rely on China, which has proved to be an extremely reliable partner.

The good news is that India cannot out maneuver PAF in the buying cycle to exclude it from even acquiring these capabilities. It seems the PAF leadership recognized this a while ago and initiated Azm. One hopes that this program of vital national interest would be well manged and well planned such that it starts delivering results quickly.

Actually, Pakistan Airforce and armed forces are very strong but the problem is that they are India centric. Pakistan can not ever match India in strength of Military. As per the US reports of comparative military strength, Pakistan is only 1/7th of India is military strength. India with a flourishing economy and robust R & D is just unmatchable for Pakistan. Pakistan Airforec is good but noway comparable to India. Pakistan has everything to loose by entering into Competition with India.
 
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Actually, Pakistan Airforce and armed forces are very strong but the problem is that they are India centric. Pakistan can not ever match India in strength of Military. As per the US reports of comparative military strength, Pakistan is only 1/7th of India is military strength. India with a flourishing economy and robust R & D is just un-matchable for Pakistan. Pakistan Airforec is good but noway comparable to India. Pakistan has everything to loose by entering into Competition with India.
Nice to see you again bro and you are right that difference is almost double in terms of military personnel but that doesn't mean that you have win it and if that would have been the case than considering india's hate towards us you should have defeated us by now.
Yupe your economy is on a completely different level than us but which R&D are you talking of?
1)the one abdul Kalam brought from US and built agni-1 for you or
2)the dhruv helicopter on which amnesty international has published its report
Indian helicopters for Myanmar: making a ... - Amnesty International

https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/64000/asa200142007en.pdf
https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/64000/asa200142007en.pdf
3)or tegas on which HAL chairman of that time Air Marshal M. S. D. Wollen clearly said that you can develop LCA with one or more collaborative partners.
so the point is that you have better access of european market so you just buy the technology by your money.

Pakistan Air force have some very limited options …… Fist we have to come out of defensive force mentality , 2ndly new advance techs are not cheap so we also have to let go for looking "cheap options"...……….
PAF can do it only if they have will...…..
Options are very limited...….. If we replace Mirages with any heavy 4.5++ Gen that will going to cost us hell lot of money and Heavies are expensive to operate and their maintaining cost is high , In short we can not have them in numbers and having few is useless …. Better option we change Mirages with Medium bird (F-16 or J-10) ,,,,,,,,, In case of J-10 , We can have 120+ J-10 that will going to help a lot....
For 4.5++ Gen Bird we have to wait for right time (economy ) and right option (EFT or Su-35) …….. I will chose EFT …………..
again J-10 I don't understand that why you guys even bring j-10 into this. Wouldn't jf-17 thunder block-3 be on par with j-10 and would be competitive enough.
 
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Yupe your economy is on a completely different level than us but which R&D are you talking of?
1)the one abdul Kalam brought from US and built agni-1 for you or
2)the dhruv helicopter on which amnesty international has published its report
Indian helicopters for Myanmar: making a ... - Amnesty International

I am least interested in your propaganda version of Indian capability. We know how much capable we are and the gap with all who are bihinnd us in Increasing and same with who are ahead of us is narrowing. We have surpassed many nation to come to 4th place in last few years. What you say and think is immaterial.
 
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I am least interested in your propaganda version of Indian capability. We know how much capable we are and the gap with all who are bihinnd us in Increasing and same with who are ahead of us is narrowing. We have surpassed many nation to come to 4th place in last few years. What you say and think is immaterial.
Well, I provided you with sources and if you still call it a propaganda than I salute your ignorance dude.
what 4rth place have you acquired?
don't compel me to troll you although my fingers were imposing me to type a troll comment but I avoid it to maintain a healthy conversation.Basically,it's your patriotism which is coming in your way and not letting you accept the truth.
 
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Actually, Pakistan Airforce and armed forces are very strong but the problem is that they are India centric. Pakistan can not ever match India in strength of Military. As per the US reports of comparative military strength, Pakistan is only 1/7th of India is military strength. India with a flourishing economy and robust R & D is just unmatchable for Pakistan. Pakistan Airforec is good but noway comparable to India. Pakistan has everything to loose by entering into Competition with India.

This thread is not meant for such discussion. Kindly stay on topic.
 
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And they will conveniently keep any weaknesses of their systems to themselves.
Nothing wrong with that. Why would you want to broadcast your technical weaknesses? But that is not the point to start.

If your army have a machine gun, you do not test against a simulated opponent that have only single shot rifles. Your machine gun may have weaknesses, but at least you will be able to see if your army can tactically withstand an enemy that have a machine gun.

That is why Red Flag is something that no one else has and everyone wishes they get an invitation. Red Flag comes %90 close to actual combat. Participants at Red Flag engages in EW as well. The point is not that Red Flag have to simulate actual Soviet/Russian/Chinese hardware, even though the 507th Air Defense Aggressor Squadron...

https://www.nellis.af.mil/News/Article/284637/one-of-a-kind-squadron-trains-airmen-from-ground-up/

...Have a classified complement of actual Soviet/Russian/Chinese air defense radar and missile battery readied against Red Flag participants.

What the 507th have does not need to be the latest but only that the EW threat is sufficiently different than NATO. The goal is to make Red Flag participants create countermeasures when their systems detect something that is not in their threat libraries.

It takes knowledge of current state of the art to extrapolate enemy's true capabilities and form a plan. China and Russia are in a position to do this in the field of EW.
No one is better than US at SIGINT. Simply put, no one is more foresighted than US.

As much as you like it to be, neither Russia nor China can defy the laws of physics. If we provoked a Chinese radar station to active state, what we collect from the ether will be enough for US to extrapolate with better than %75 accuracy as to the hardware that produced that signal. Then we can replicate those signals ourselves with our own hardware to test against our own fighters.

A SIGINT flight is not obligated to declare what it is like an airliner must. The reason is because the SIGINT aircraft does not seek to enter any sovereign airspace like the EP-3E in the Hainan Incident. That mean Soviet/Russian/Chinese air defense radars always go active when they encounter an unidentified target, and when they go active, the SIGINT aircraft collects vital EM signatures.

We have doing this for decades while the best the Soviets done was with 'fishing trawlers' that shadows US fleets in the oceans. China have zero experience in SIGINT at this time.

My argument wasn't about professionalism. It was about American weapons and their inability to project power to an extent which would cause China to relent to their demand.
And you used the wrong event to try to criticize US. We have yet to make our presence known in the South China Sea.

I'll grant that describing it as buzz was taking liberties with the technicality, but this was because I didn't fully recall the specifics rather than any willfull intention to twist facts. Thank you for correcting me.
Recall? No, you do not know the details of the event AT ALL. Your lack of relevant experience is glaring, as is your unwillingness to remain in whatever domain that you know about. You did more than just took liberties with the event. Your usage of the word 'buzz' was meant to be demeaning of US as it is common among pilots that to 'buzz' someone is to make that person a victim of your superior position. Simply put -- you do not know what you are talking about. You failed your forum handle.

I want the contest to be skewed in favor of PAF. It would be illogical to try for complete dominance over India from zero hour. The result of the contest will establish the final control level.

PAF being the smaller force must try for both force preservation and continued force availability while simultaneously causing attrition in the enemy. Given available technological options, PAF's best bet is to produce the technology it needs locally.
The PAF and the InAF are essentially at technological parity. Assume that what you say is true that the InAF have numerical superiority, it means the InAF can create contested airspaces of large scope inside Pakistan. Numerical superiority plus your demand for force preservation will nearly assure the InAF's air superiority over Pakistan's sovereign airspace.

Make no mistakes. Desert Storm was an important lesson for all air forces, especially those that have numerical superiority over its potential adversaries. Desert Storm taught air forces that have numerical superiority over its potential enemies the need to create contested airspaces in the early stages of an air campaign and to create with as much scope as possible.
 
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