The Mirage 2000 Upgrade: What Makes India's Fighter Jet Better

[NKVD]

Comparing both jets F16 is more manoeuvrable, with better range and weapons load.

I am only comparing the jets in dogfight.

This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).
The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the MICA is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).

A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.

As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.

 

[Srinivas]

I have np with your opinion !

This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).
The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the MICA is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).

A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.

As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.

 

[UKBengali]

This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).
The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the MICA is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).

A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.

As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.

In the 1990s a Greek Mirage-2000 shot down a Turkish F-16 in a dogfight.

 

[NKVD]

In the 1990s a Greek Mirage-2000 shot down a Turkish F-16 in a dogfight.

Well its All About Pilot Combat Training Like @gambit Said.
But Regarding some Key Points about Mirage2000-5 MK2

The instantaneous turn rate is a significant advantage for the mirage, as the MICA missile is a better IR missile than the AIM 9 and an experienced mirage pilot will lock on initially and get the kill before the f-16 tries to gain altitude after the initial confrontation (In which case the F-16 would have an advantage due to higher sustained rate.

In Greece where they operate both, they consider the Mirage 2000-5 Mk II and above superior to the F-16 in high altitude due to maneuverability and the F-16 superior in low altitude due to being more powerful.

The Mirage has some advantage as well with the longer range MICA missile, which shoots towards the projected course of the enemy and starts tracking when it's close. This has an advantage because there is no missile warning and the f-16's pilot would get a defensive stance upon close missile warning which would cause him to lose his lock on the AMRAAM had he shot one. The MICA also produces no warning when shot from behind and if the pilot doesn't see it it's a kill.

 

[gambit]

In my view Mirages are used for S/DEAD missions as IAF already have Jaguar for close air support.

For air superiority we have SU 30 MKI.

India has two threats one is Pakistan and the other is China.

In Pakistan front we have to deal with the F16's, JF17's and at China front we have to deal with J10's, SU 30 MKK, J20 and J31.

In case of two front war most of the fighting happens on plains at Pakistani front But in case of China the terrain is mountainous.

So based on the above scenarios Mirage is clearly lacking in dogfights with F16, but because of upgrades Mirage is a good S/DEAD mission aircraft.

Gambit what is the ideal combination of fighter aircraft that India should posses in case of two front war?

India has LCA Tejas, a small delta wing single engine fighter jet which can be mass produced. Also India is planning to sign a deal for 200 odd Rafales.

Thanks Gambit. But as having 274 SU-30MKI is there any need of M2K for Air superiority mission against Pakistan?
and can you shade some light on what strategy will IAF use against China.

My opinion is that the MKI is best use for air superiority -- regardless of opponents at any time, and the Mirage for deep interdiction.

Own The Air To Win The Ground -- So without air superiority, you will not be able to attack enemy ground forces at any level in any situation, CAS and/or S/DEAD.

The reason why helos are not ideal for CAS and S/DEAD is because of speed and altitude limitations base on load, humidity, temperature, and several other factors. That does not mean army helo pilots cannot fight tanks and APCs in support of fellow army soldiers. They can and they will. But why dedicated CAS and S/DEAD platforms are good to have is because they can fly over all terrain and their speed enable them to respond to unplanned situations quicker than helos.

The MIG-21s and -27s are too old to be financially worthwhile for upgrades. India is wise to retire them or at best relegate to training status. That leave the Jaguar to serve as a dedicated CAS platform. I am not going to be make any comparison between the Jag and the A-10 here. The issue and question should be: Will India provide the Army with a dedicated CAS platform ? If the answer is yes, then Jag pilots must be trained in CAS specifics tactics which are not the same as S/DEAD even though both are surface attacks situations.

The USAF defines CAS as 'air action against enemy ground forces that are either in immediate proximity of friendly forces or are within artillery range of friendly ground forces.' CAS tactics requires air assets to be in close coordination with ground forces to reduce -- not eliminate -- the odds of fratricide. As such, CAS tactics need the pilots to be within constant visual contact with friendly ground forces, which of course make them within visual contacts with enemy ground forces, and that CAS pilots must be ready to divert to another battlefield situation when called upon.

Deep interdiction missions do not have this level of obedience to ground controllers. S/DEAD and deep interdiction missions are highly autonomous. These pilots required a different set of intelligence, such as terrain for ingress/egress routes for cover, mobile air defense if there are any, and target type such as fixed land structures or moving troop formations. Fixed land structures increases the vulnerability factor for deep interdiction attackers, which leads back to the problem of how many passes does a target require for destruction. For the S/DEAD missions, fratricide is usually not an issue so the pilots have greater latitude on which direction and altitude they can attack. Open terrain affords moving troops formations greater degrees of movement to avoid attacks from the air, which require the S/DEAD pilots to have some knowledge of CAS tactics against ground troops when they are dispersed like in a battle. Mountainous terrain affords enemy troops cover but beside restricting their latitude of movement, the same terrain restrict the air attackers' movement in terms of ingress and attack directions.

List of active Indian military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tactical air have three distinct missions:

- Air superiority, which is to repulse any enemy air actions.

- Battlefield isolation, which is deep interdiction strikes to deny enemy front line troops their support.

- Direct intervention, which is close air support (CAS) of friendly ground forces.

In looking at the Indian Air Force fleet details, it make logical sense to dedicate the MKI to secure air superiority in any situation, whether to allow the Jags to assist the Army, or to accompany the Mirages to deep interdiction missions. Any successful air campaigns depends on air superiority, which affords other types of air actions freedom from interference from enemy air forces. It does not matter the duration of this freedom or whether this freedom is localized to a particular ground combat action or theater wide level.

 

[Storm Force]

India will be left with just one dedicated fighter ie jaguar for strike roles.

Mki mirage mig29 and tejss is multi role.

I can now see why they want rafale over typhoon abd why they want Fgfa over pak fa.

India wants multi role platforms only

 

[Srinivas]

Thanks Gambit for your analysis !

My opinion is that the MKI is best use for air superiority -- regardless of opponents at any time, and the Mirage for deep interdiction.

Own The Air To Win The Ground -- So without air superiority, you will not be able to attack enemy ground forces at any level in any situation, CAS and/or S/DEAD.

The reason why helos are not ideal for CAS and S/DEAD is because of speed and altitude limitations base on load, humidity, temperature, and several other factors. That does not mean army helo pilots cannot fight tanks and APCs in support of fellow army soldiers. They can and they will. But why dedicated CAS and S/DEAD platforms are good to have is because they can fly over all terrain and their speed enable them to respond to unplanned situations quicker than helos.

The MIG-21s and -27s are too old to be financially worthwhile for upgrades. India is wise to retire them or at best relegate to training status. That leave the Jaguar to serve as a dedicated CAS platform. I am not going to be make any comparison between the Jag and the A-10 here. The issue and question should be: Will India provide the Army with a dedicated CAS platform ? If the answer is yes, then Jag pilots must be trained in CAS specifics tactics which are not the same as S/DEAD even though both are surface attacks situations.

The USAF defines CAS as 'air action against enemy ground forces that are either in immediate proximity of friendly forces or are within artillery range of friendly ground forces.' CAS tactics requires air assets to be in close coordination with ground forces to reduce -- not eliminate -- the odds of fratricide. As such, CAS tactics need the pilots to be within constant visual contact with friendly ground forces, which of course make them within visual contacts with enemy ground forces, and that CAS pilots must be ready to divert to another battlefield situation when called upon.

Deep interdiction missions do not have this level of obedience to ground controllers. S/DEAD and deep interdiction missions are highly autonomous. These pilots required a different set of intelligence, such as terrain for ingress/egress routes for cover, mobile air defense if there are any, and target type such as fixed land structures or moving troop formations. Fixed land structures increases the vulnerability factor for deep interdiction attackers, which leads back to the problem of how many passes does a target require for destruction. For the S/DEAD missions, fratricide is usually not an issue so the pilots have greater latitude on which direction and altitude they can attack. Open terrain affords moving troops formations greater degrees of movement to avoid attacks from the air, which require the S/DEAD pilots to have some knowledge of CAS tactics against ground troops when they are dispersed like in a battle. Mountainous terrain affords enemy troops cover but beside restricting their latitude of movement, the same terrain restrict the air attackers' movement in terms of ingress and attack directions.

List of active Indian military aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tactical air have three distinct missions:

- Air superiority, which is to repulse any enemy air actions.

- Battlefield isolation, which is deep interdiction strikes to deny enemy front line troops their support.

- Direct intervention, which is close air support (CAS) of friendly ground forces.

In looking at the Indian Air Force fleet details, it make logical sense to dedicate the MKI to secure air superiority in any situation, whether to allow the Jags to assist the Army, or to accompany the Mirages to deep interdiction missions. Any successful air campaigns depends on air superiority, which affords other types of air actions freedom from interference from enemy air forces. It does not matter the duration of this freedom or whether this freedom is localized to a particular ground combat action or theater wide level.