The JH7B---Rashid Minhas---Navy Frigates---Less Subs

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

 

[Indus Falcon]

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

Some sensible members on this forum, are always open to new ideas, no matter how illogical it may seem at that point in time. Do ignore the negativity and keep posting.

Best Regards

 

[MastanKhan]

Some sensible members on this forum, are always open to new ideas, no matter how illogical it may seem at that point in time. Do ignore the negativity and keep posting.

Best Regards

Sir,

That is where the Israelis excel----they are looking at all the illogical problems that they will face. They train themselves to look at everything that is not expected.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Sir, Is there any talk of the JH7B in a dedicated naval role or CAS?

 

[Spectre]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

The courage exhibited by you when stating your contrarian views is indeed admirable. I find your posts to be the highlight of the time spent in PDF and am all the more richer in knowledge thanks to you.

Thanks and Regards

Sir,

That is where the Israelis excel----they are looking at all the illogical problems that they will face. They train themselves to look at everything that is not expected.

I had heard that after the 6 day war, whenever there was a high level intelligence briefing, it was the duty of 1 out 10 analysts to play devil's advocate and bat for things however illogical and improbable they might seem. It was done so that Israel is never out of the loop.

Policy was instituted by Golda Meir herself

 

[aliyusuf]

Sir @MastanKhan,

Greatly admire your analytical prowess and the ability to think out of the box. Your point of views force us lesser mortals to re-analyze the topic at hand and look at it from an alternate perspective. You sometimes do jolt us with your posts and sometimes strike a kindred chord.

Wouldn't want it any different.

Kindly stay resolute and keep throwing us food for thought.

 

[MastanKhan]

The courage exhibited by you when stating your contrarian views is indeed admirable. I find your posts to be the highlight of the time spent in PDF and am all the more richer in knowledge thanks to you.

Thanks and Regards



I had heard that after the 6 day war, whenever there was a high level intelligence briefing, it was the duty of 1 out 10 analysts to play devil's advocate and bat for things however illogical and improbable they might seem. It was done so that Israel is never out of the loop.

Policy was instituted by Golda Meir herself

Hi,

That is correct---and you must have seen it in that movie as well---the Zombie movie-----.

Everytime I read anything about the Israelis---there is always the mention of discussing everything illogical that may happen.

 

[Side-Winder]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

it's always been a pleasure to hear from you sir. No matter Whether i like to agree with your points or not. Just don't you dare stop!

 

[Spectre]

Hi,

That is correct---and you must have seen it in that movie as well---the Zombie movie-----.

Everytime I read anything about the Israelis---there is always the mention of discussing everything illogical that may happen.

You are correct, the movie was called World War Z and this trivia appeared in the novel on which this movie is based on. However my recollection is from a different source.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, Is there any talk of the JH7B in a dedicated naval role or CAS?

Hi,

Not for Pakistan---but china is extremely serious about the B version for its heavy naval strike missions+ its Growler type capabilities.

This aircraft will turn out to be the best bang for the buck for naval strike roles if they stay the course that the manufacturer is talking about.

Due to its range after refuelling---this is the most suitable aircraft for naval strike missions for Pakistan navy---specially those that you fly over the ocean and then target land as well.

Due to its long legs----you can fly 30 deg--or 45 deg offset to the target---or even 90 deg offset---turn and then attack from a different direction.

If you look at this map---it can literally fly from Karachi---gwadar---pasni literally 145 deg away from the target and then turn and the strike from a totally different direction.

 

[C130]

interesting the JH-7A radar is based off the Tomcats AWG-9, massive impressive radar indeed.



flying leopard I like the name too.

 

[Viper0011.]

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

MK - I don't know about others. But I like reading your posts. They show a balanced approach, strategy backed up with personal experience. So you have my vote of confidence. There is something knowledgeable and unique you get to read every time there is post by MK on this forum.

Whether we agree or disagree on certain things, do know that your writings and opinions are very valuable to me. No matter who says what, don't stop writing. You know how many times I've been called out, cussed out by Indian because they thought I was a Pakistani because I wrote the truth and it hurt??? Similarly, Pakistanis calling me dumb American, names and all.....what happened? Did anyone stop me from writing? HELL NO!! So remember, your true self is in your writings, your passion is in it too. Don't let that flame go down with negativity. Its like the Olympic torch.....its got to stay lit-up. Keep them posts coming. Many read your content and I certainly read and appreciate it.

On JH-7, I agree with majority of your points. I agree this plane with evolve now that the Chinese are working with the modern technology. I certainly agree the load it can carry. But where I disagree is because of the PAF's capability at THIS point in time to have a strike jet. With limited numbers of the fighting fleet, the PAF won't be able to protect the JH-7 either due to lack of proper escort.

Imagine a JH-7 loaded with 7-8 ton of weapons and fuel...how much maneuverability it has to outmaneuver a BVR missile (expect 2-3 due to IAF and IN numbers + SAMs)? It wouldn't be able to outmaneuver one BVR missiles, let alone 2 or 3. Also, it will ONLY have two BVR's in a fully loaded capacity to defend itself, which against two enemy jets won't be enough as usually two BVR's fired will give you a better kill probability if you are dealing with SU-30's, Mig-29's etc.

So do I think JH-7 is a good aircraft for Pakistan? Absolutely yes IF the PAF had like 500-600 4th generation jets to provide proper escort capabilities AND have a decent fighting fleet. But under current circumstances, with less than 150 BVR planes, there is much higher risk of losing JH-7 to enemy jets and SAMS (even 150 BVR jets will exist when the JFT block II becomes operational). So as you can see, at this point, why take such a high risk to lose $ 20-30 million worth of investments per plane (and associated infrastructure, training and all).

Also, remember, the US warships have AEGIS and DAS like MUCH higher powered sensors. It doesn't matter if a F-22 flies around or something as big as a SU-30. These ships can detect anything in the air. Stealthy and non-Stealthy and even that from hundreds of miles away. If something can't be seen on radars, the high powered IR and XRay will catch you. Simple is that. The Indian navy will soon be upgrading their ships with the same level of tech as the Pentagon has opened up to them about pretty much all tech, same goes for Israel. So the JH-7A,B or C, won't make a difference with RAM quoting and all, as these will be tracked through multiple sensors from hundreds of miles away. The -35 can track a small thing such as a missile's after-bun from 800 miles away, using small, compact DAS sensors. Imagine much larger and much higher power DAS like sensors working from the US ships.....it would become useless. IMO, the standoff munitions still a much better chance as cruise missiles are smaller and can be confused for a while with waves and other clutter on the ocean.

Due to its range after refuelling---this is the most suitable aircraft for naval strike missions for Pakistan navy---specially those that you fly over the ocean and then target land as well.

Due to its long legs----you can fly 30 deg--or 45 deg offset to the target---or even 90 deg offset---turn and then attack from a different direction

If you look at this map---it can literally fly from Karachi---gwadar---pasni literally 145 deg away from the target and then turn and the strike from a totally different direction.

But the real issue is, whether it can do 45 degree or 90 degree offset....AND with RAM quoting and all.....the advanced detection systems like I explained in my other post, don't care about the Stealth anymore. They'll still track you from hundreds of miles away.

So 45 or 90 degree offset is good but you also have two Mig-29's headed your way right after you took off with 2-4 BVR's being fired at you from 75+ KM's away. And a SAM tier waiting right behind the Migs.

How do you deal with it? If you are intercepted withing 20-30 miles post take off....what's the point in losing a plane this easily? Its a great plane, I am talking about IN's response.....these serious risks outweigh the investment in this case.

 

[HAIDER]

interesting the JH-7A radar is based off the Tomcats AWG-9, massive impressive radar indeed.



flying leopard I like the name too.

And two british turbofan engine...

 

[Super Falcon]

Sir,

That is where the Israelis excel----they are looking at all the illogical problems that they will face. They train themselves to look at everything that is not expected.

Agreeed samething im saying cover your weaknesses rather than making videos and building homes PAF and pn prime examples

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

Pakistan needs a Air Force with 540 Fighter Jets based on F-16 and JF-17 and J-10 B or J-11 D as for JH-7 B we should get it after we manage to get three Jet I earlier mentioned. As for Navy we need a Navy with at least 18 Frigates and Corvettes and 6 Destroyers and 14 Submarines. Navy should also be backed by at least 54 Fighter Jets @MastanKhan