The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Deino]

Guys ... this discussion is useless, senseless ... and IMO already off-topic in the J-20 tread.

Therefore I created this new thread in order to separate the on-going and already so often discussed question on the J-20's powerplant from the other J-20 news but also from the engine's thread I opened this new special thread.

Please continue here.

Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

"i told you jet fighter, is designed around the jet engine, instead, jet engine is designed around the jet fighter"

Are you saying develop the airframe first, then the engine, later?

Tell that to the Indians. The Indians are developing their HAL Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

Tell them don't do it like the American, Russian and Chinese, like the way they did F-15, F-16, F-22, F-35, Su-27, Su-30, Su-57 and J-20.

Tell them don't bother to start the engine, years ahead, first. Tell them they could start the engine and air-frame, at the same time. Or after the air-frame was developed.

And see how far they will get, and see if they will keep their schedule.

Thats's what China did with J-9. It was a total disaster that ended in cancellation. J-10 was, saved only, because the Russians, was willing to supply, the excellent AL-31 engine to China.

in simple words parallel but not before can you put MIG-31's jet engine (Soloviev D-30) in Su-27 air-frame AL-31F and Soloviev D-30 which were almost same development period Mr @Asok

 

[Asoka]

"can you put MIG-31's jet engine (Soloviev D-30) in Su-27 air-frame, AL-31F and Soloviev D-30, which were almost same development period"

What are you talking about? You Don't make any sense to me.

'"in simple words, parallel, but not before""

What I have said about the importance of early preliminary researches, don't mean anything to you.

Isn't that's how the American, Europeans and Russians, and now the Chinese are doing?

"Then why you compare J-20 to an nonexistent jet ... you're giving legitimacy to an non-existent fighter"

Just to alert the pakistanipower, this is what the Indians are doing with AMCA. Start AMCA without an engine. It will end in disaster.

China made a wise decision to start the TWR 10 engine's preliminary researches, very early. And that's why J-20 is flying with it's intended engine now. Some far sighted planning paid off big time. It could have ended in disaster.

This time, the Russians might not sell its advanced engine, so China could copy and rip-off its technologies, like they did with AL-31.

"you're giving legitimacy to an non-existent fighter"

They do have a very nice model, to be fair.

 

[Figaro]

"can you put MIG-31's jet engine (Soloviev D-30) in Su-27 air-frame, AL-31F and Soloviev D-30, which were almost same development period"

What are you talking about? You Don't make any sense to me.

'"in simple words, parallel, but not before""

What I have said about the importance of early preliminary researches, don't mean anything to you.

Isn't that's how the American, Europeans and Russians, and now the Chinese are doing?

"Then why you compare J-20 to an nonexistent jet ... you're giving legitimacy to an non-existent fighter"

Just to alert the pakistanipower, this is what the Indians are doing with AMCA. Start AMCA without an engine. It will end in disaster.

China made a wise decision to start the TWR 10 engine's preliminary researches, very early. And that's why J-20 is flying with it's intended engine now. Some far sighted planning paid off big time. It could have ended in disaster.

This time, the Russians might not sell its advanced engine, so China could copy and rip-off its technologies, like they did with AL-31.

"you're giving legitimacy to an non-existent fighter"

They do have a very nice model, to be fair.

Dude, we all know that the J-20 was designed with a powerful turbofan as an end goal (WS-15). No one is disputing that. And as I've mentioned before, there is not going to be an AMCA (I even have my doubts on the FGFA). A model is just a model ... period.

 

[Ultima Thule]

What are you talking about? You Don't make any sense to me.

"Then why you compare J-20 to an nonexistent jet ... you're giving legitimacy to an non-existent fighter"

Just to alert the pakistanipower, this is what the Indians are doing with AMCA. Start AMCA without an engine. It will end in disaster.

China made a wise decision to start the TWR 10 engine's preliminary researches, very early. And that's why J-20 is flying with it's intended engine now. Some far sighted planning paid off big time. It could have ended in disaster. This time, the Russians might not sell its advanced engine.

"you're giving legitimacy to an non-existent fighter"

They do have a very nice model, to be fair.

T/W Ratio 9 engine and that was WS-10 not WS-15 forget AMCA which is a paper project currently lets talk about J-20 engine which either a version of WS-10X or version of Al-31 but surely not WS-15, WS-15 in its advanced development stages as per various senior members on PDF, so why you insisting your crap false assertions and wishful thinking

Dude, we all know that the J-20 was designed with a powerful turbofan as an end goal (WS-15). No one is disputing that. And as I've mentioned before, there is not going to be an AMCA (I even have my doubts on the FGFA). A model is just a model ... period.

@Figaro , and @Asok PAK-FA example is front of you, if PAK-FA can fly with a Interim engine so why not J-20

 

[Figaro]

T/W Ratio 9 engine and that was WS-10 not WS-15 forget AMCA which is a paper project currently lets talk about J-20 engine which either a version of WS-10X or version of Al-31 but surely not WS-15, WS-15 in its advanced development stages as per various senior members on PDF, so why you insisting your crap false assertions and wishful thinking

The WS-15 is gonna be incorporated into the J-20 before 2019-2020. Its almost ready for transfer to IL-76 testbed.

 

[Asoka]

The WS-15 is gonna be incorporated into the J-20 before 2019-2020. Its almost ready for transfer to IL-76 testbed.

And what engine is J-20 flying right now?

"PAK-FA example is front of you, if PAK-FA can fly with a Interim engine, so why not J-20?"

J-20 certainly could fly with an interim engine first. I have already suggested J-20 was flying with a prototype engine, with a WS-15 engine core, and other technologies from WS-10 and AL-31, since 2011.

Now it is flying with a production WS-15, since around 2014-2015.

What is the name of this prototype engine, I am not certain, it could be designated as WS-10b or WS-10X, I really don't know.

What I am certain is that if this engine was designated as WS-10b, I am certain it's NOT made of WS-10a's core.

Because, this does not further WS-15 core testing, in any way.

What the WS-15 designers needs are, first hand data, from flying the engine core, in a real plane, not just simulated data.

So they could compare the actual data, with the simulated data, to see if they fit.

If not they must find out why, and make modifications.

 

[Asoka]

What nonsense you have first you post WS-15 was installed on J-20 from the day one and then you have a this CRAPY false assertions and wishful thinking again with no prove, how can you directly put high risk extremely new engine to your sensitive stealth jet, to reduce the risk WS-15 will be air testing on other plate form instead directly putting WS-15 on J-20, even USA and russia can't put their new engines on there new airframes without extensive air testing on other aircrafts, I am reporting you for your baseless and clueless debates

"can't put their new engines, on there new airframes, without extensive air testing, on other aircrafts."

Yes, first, bench tests, then third party platforms test, are the usual american and Russian testing procedures, but according to the development plan, I posted earlier, testing on third party platforms was to be skipped, if bench testing was successful, and put WS-15 onto J-20, directly, for further testing. This is more risky, for sure, but there are no laws against that.

"Specifically, this says, . . . during the 7th 5 years plan (1986-1990) (planning, preliminary researches), 8th 5 years plan 1991-1995 (planning, preliminary researches) 9th 5 years plan 1996-2000(planning, preliminary researches and engine core researches), 10th 5 years plan 2000-2005(planning, focus on engine core), 11th 5 years plan 2005-2010 ( engine core pass bench test), 12th 5 years plan (2010-2015), if bench tests were successful, skip testing on third party platforms, and directly install on J-20 for testing , , ,"

It is more risking, I am sure, but J-20 was an extremely urgent project, they have to take more risks, to meet the tight schedule.

"I am reporting you for your baseless and clueless debates."

Be a little more mature, Bro.

Some people keep claiming WS-15 began bench testing on 2015, but according to this article, ground bench testing of the engine core was completed on 2005.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5387c42f0102xjuz.html

1.) 2000年, WS-15核心机开始研制。 "2000, WS-15 engine core start to develop."

2.) 2005年：WS-15核心机完成地面台架测试。"2005: WS-15 engine core completed ground bench testings"

3.) 2006年: WS-15发动机立项。"2006: WS-15 engine project was formally established."

4.) 2009年12月：WS-15核心机完成高空台测试。"December 2009: WS-15 engine core completed high altitude platform tests."

5.) 2011年：中航黎明完成WS-15验证机, 并提前交付。"2011: Liming Factory completed the WS-15 prototype, and was delivered ahead of schedule."

6.) 2012年底--2013年初：WS-15工程验证机通过高空台测试。"early 2013: WS-15 engineering prototype passed high altitude testings."

7.) 2014年：歼20第2011号进行WS-15单发试飞。"2014: J-20, number 2011, started testing with one WS-15 engine." (the other engine was probably the older version of WS-15)

8.) 2015年：歼20第2016号进行WS-15双发考核试飞；"2015: J-20, number 2016, with two WS-15 engines verification testings.

9.) 2016年：歼20第2101号生产型完成定型。"2016: J-20, number 2101, completed production model testings."

10.) 2016年底：歼20第2101号量产服役型奔赴珠海航展。"end of 2016: J-20, number 2101, production and service model, demonstrated at the Zhuhai China Airshow.

Notice, This article gave very specific dates and testing and develop timeline. The writer obviously got insider level informations.

 

[Deino]

..Notice, This article gave very specific dates and testing and develop timeline. The writer obviously got insider level informations.

Or he smoked a lot of certain herbs and mixed it with a very blooming imagination.

Come one; there are countless of such "very exact and detailed" reports all over the net. But point is, how reliable is this certain poster in general. Is this just one post that looks good and otherwise there's nothing from him ??

Even more I really question these reports concerning the WS-15 being based on the R-79; in fact an unreliable and unsuccessful engine that was a failure even in Russia.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

Or he smoked a lot of certain herbs and mixed it with a very blooming imagination.

Come one; there are countless of such "very exact and detailed" reports all over the net. But point is, how reliable is this certain poster in general. Is this just one post that looks good and otherwise there's nothing from him ??

Even more I really question these reports concerning the WS-15 being based on the R-79; in fact an unreliable and unsuccessful engine that was a failure even in Russia.

Deino

"Even more I really question these reports concerning the WS-15 being based on the R-79; in fact an unreliable and unsuccessful engine that was a failure even in Russia."

I beg to differ, Bro.

Cancelling due to lack of funding, and cancelling due to technical failures, could be two entirely different things.

The YAK 141 was cancelled, due to lack of further funding, after USSR was collapsed. The R-79 engine continued development till 1996. The YAK 141 successfully demonstrated at Paris Airshow. It was the first VTOL aircraft with supersonic capability. Lockheed Martin even brought the tilting nozzle technology for its F-35.

Like other advanced formerUSSR technologies, the R-79 engine was put up for a fire sale, in the 1990s. It is not unconceivable, that China would be interested, in acquire such advanced technology, at a ridiculous fire sale price.

China brought the 70% finished Varyag Aircraft carrier at the incredible price of $20 millions. The Ukranians throws in all the technical documentations and blueprints for another 3 millions. China probably hired the same engineers, who worked on it, to help with refurbished the aircraft carrier.

 

[Asoka]

Agreed; during these days no-one can be sure what was and what wasn't sold those years and given the close connection between Yakowlew and Hongdu for example it is not impossible that CHina also got hand on the Yak-141 and its engine.
Anyway I highly doubt that even if the R-79 was surely a powerful "beast" it is unlikely that the PLAAF's future high-thrust powerplant for the J-20 and future generation engines is based on an engine that was bench tested for the first time in 1984 ??

Deino

Yes, China got a lot of advanced military technologies from the former USSR, particularly Ukraine, at a fire sale prices, and China hired a lot of their top rated scientists and engineers too. Prices are very important in sale. Some famous salesman said, you can sell anything, if the price is right.

I began to work for a US defense contractor in 1999, I have a lot of co-workers, who are Russian and Ukraine PH.Ds. They told me life was so hard, after the collapsed of the USSR, that daily surrival was constant struggle for everybody. Leaving the country, was one of their only choice.

A lot of talented Russians and Ukanians arrived at the New York, and Washington DC, area. A closest software engineering co-worker of mine, was on the Russian Computer Programming Olympia Team. One of my first Tai Chi student was a Russian geology engineer. I even dated a beautiful Russian ph.d scientist, briefly.

"Anyway I highly doubt that even if the R-79 was surely a powerful "beast" "

Yes, R-79 was bench tested on 1984, but there are continuous development models well into 1990's, a version of R-79 was rated having over 200kN thrust. But remember, high thrust is not the only desirable requirements.

Engine life, fuel consumption rate, range of effective operating altitude, cost, complexity, size and weight or TWR are also very important. Fighter jet engines are generally classified with their TWR.

"your can't skip, major engine development step, to increase your project safety risks, to become a failed project"

Tell that to the Chinese engineers. But they are successful with WS-15. The risk taking paid off.

The US engineers took even more risks with F-35 project. They began production of F-35 even before design and testing was finished.

"Lockheed was allowed "to design, test, and produce the F-35 all at the same time, instead of… [identifying and fixing] defects before firing up its production line"."

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/joint-strike-fighter-lockheed-martin

 

[samsara]

"Even more I really question these reports concerning the WS-15 being based on the R-79; in fact an unreliable and unsuccessful engine that was a failure even in Russia."

I beg to differ, Bro.

Cancelling due to lack of funding, and cancelling due to technical failures, could be two entirely different things.

The YAK 141 was cancelled, due to lack of further funding, after USSR was collapsed. The R-79 engine continued development till 1996. The YAK 141 successfully demonstrated at Paris Airshow. It was the first VTOL aircraft with supersonic capability. Lockheed Martin even brought the tilting nozzle technology for its F-35.

Like other advanced formerUSSR technologies, the R-79 engine was put up for a fire sale, in the 1990s. It is not unconceivable, that China would be interested, in acquire such advanced technology, at a ridiculous fire sale price.

China brought the 70% finished Varyag Aircraft carrier at the incredible price of $20 millions. The Ukranians throws in all the technical documentations and blueprints for another 3 millions. China probably hired the same engineers, who worked on it, to help with refurbished the aircraft carrier.

And I can add up here that the USSR at its dissolution stage was in [very] bad economic situation and reaching its bottom low [no more USSR but Russia then] under the drunken Boris Yeltsin... it's a period of brutal loot/rape of the Russian state wealth & natural resources (a very long reading indeed) by some individuals, mostly from certain tribe [that later on when Putin came into grip they ran away to the West like rats], they took over the state assets for pennies on dollar. Russia was so miserable at that time that this nation was treated under financial infuse of the IMF & World Bank back then, and rouble had a free fall. And this is the real history of that nation. Many who pay attention still wonder why the Empire didn't pull the kill-switch [the 2nd Balkanization after the USSR break-up] back then [Yelsin's era], it remains a mystery!

 

[Figaro]

Guys ... STOP NOW !!

I agree with @Brainsucker: "Why don't both sides to agree to disagree?" ... non of us has proof, we all have only certain hints and evidences that we both weight differently and so come to different conclusions.

... and now back to topic.

Yes. Some individuals are intentionally derailing the thread. With thrust vectoring 210kn WS-15's

 

[Han Patriot]

Guys ... STOP NOW !!

I agree with @Brainsucker: "Why don't both sides to agree to disagree?" ... non of us has proof, we all have only certain hints and evidences that we both weight differently and so come to different conclusions.

... and now back to topic.

Deino,

latest documentary from CCTV showcasing the latest weapons in PLA. See 7:55 min for the quote saying J-20 is using domestic engine.

 

[Figaro]

Deino,

latest documentary from CCTV showcasing the latest weapons in PLA. See 7:55 min for the quote saying J-20 is using domestic engine.

OMG you're right. WTH.

OMG you're right. WTH.

Maybe Asok's been right this whole time? I'm starting to believe his ridiculousness ... ppl attacking CCTV's credibility are just straw-mans. Could the J-20 actually be using WS-10X's?