The Indian Air Force continues to underperform.

[janon]

Let me rephrase my question. Did Pakistan declared a conventional warfare upon India that requires PAF to cross border of India? and this time do reply sensibly.

In all your gloating, you did forget to mention about what happen to IAF aircrafts which crossed into Pakistan and explicit instructions given to IAF not to cross Pakistani border

No, Pakistan did not declare war. As I said, that doesn't make it unconventional. Declared or not, the war was a conventional war, and conventional tactics were used by the army and air force. Indian air force, that is - not the one that was MIA.

BTW Indian aircrafts did cross into Pakistan several times, as explained in the link given above by anotherr poster. The PAF was still MIA.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Windjammer

You are TOO proud of 2008 Isnt it

Well just look at your country ; all the events from 2008 onward

We KNOW that Pakistan is in a much worse shape today than in 2008

And for that some credit goes to RAW

 

[13 komaun]

Errr, in the so called previous war, IAF conducted all operations within it's own territory, but as soon as it ventured over the border, we all know what happened....besides, the lack of nerves in 2002 and 2008 happened much after the Kargil conflict.

Lack of nerves!



why waste billions of $ on conventional warfare where there are other alternatives India learnt those alternatives from Pakistani state quite late.

 

[Bratva]

No, Pakistan did not declare war. As I said, that doesn't make it unconventional. Declared or not, the war was a conventional war, and conventional tactics were used by the army and air force. Indian air force, that is - not the one that was MIA.

BTW Indian aircrafts did cross into Pakistan several times, as explained in the link given above by anotherr poster. The PAF was still MIA.

PAF was MIA where exactly do impress me with concise details instead of blowing hot air. Over Pakistani territory or over Indian territory ?

There was no coordination b/w PA and PAF in kargil ops. hence no PAF over kargil. Do tell me IAF came in middle of kargil ops after a bitter fight with IA over conducting ops right ? Initially there was no IAF over kargil as well

Jingoism blowing hot air, is this hall mark of indians ?

 

[janon]

PAF was MIA where exactly do impress me with concise details instead of blowing hot air.

PAF was MIA when Pakistan's ground forces were being bombed. They did not dare to come to their aid or to give CAS in a war that Pakistan started. PAF was also MIA in a lot of incidents when IAF crossed the border to do recce, as explained in two links given above, written by a former PAF pilot.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Warplanes: May 20, 2005

The American decision to sell new F-16 fighters to Pakistan comes not a moment too soon for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). PAF used to have technological superiority over it's Indian counterpart as recently as the 1980s, when the PAF received some 40 state of the art F-16 Block 15 fighters. These aircraft were were a cut above the warplanes of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

However, all changed in the 1990s, when the US sanctioned Pakistan for nuclear weapons development and stopped delivery of more F-16s. What's worse, the spares for PAF's existing F-16s dried up as well and the air force had to effectively ground its F-16 fleet for a few years. Meanwhile, IAF began to induct the powerful Sukhoi-30 MKI air superiority fighter, even as it added new capabilities to its existing Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 fighters by equipping them with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles. This posed a particular threat to PAF, which lacked BVR capability.

PAF's plight was exposed during the Pakistan army's incursion into the Kargil sector of Indian Kashmir in the summer of 1999. Analyses by Pakistani experts revealed that when the rubber met the road, PAF simply refused to play any part in support of the Pakistan army, angering the latter. While PAF fighters did fly Combat Air Patrols (CAP) during the conflict, they stayed well within Pakistani air space. On occasions, IAF MiG-29s armed with the deadly R-77 BVR Air-to-Air missiles were able to lock on to PAF F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage. In the absence of a PAF threat, the IAF was able to deliver numerous devastating strikes on intruder positions and supply dumps.

The situation changed little during the 2002 border crisis between India and Pakistan. Defense commentators in Pakistan noted later that despite public bravado, PAF had less than 50 percent of its top-end fighter jets available since the rest had to be cannibalized to keep the others flying. One Pakistani military expert observed that PAF's perceived inability to defend Pakistan's airspace and even put up a token fight against the IAF was the biggest driver for Pakistani leaders' warnings that any Indian attack would lead to an immediate nuclear strike by Pakistan. It would be no exaggeration to say that after the Kargil and 2002 experiences, PAF's psyche took a big beating.

Warplanes: <b>May 20, 2005</b>

 

[Bratva]

PAF was MIA when Pakistan's ground forces were being bombed. They did not dare to come to their aid or to give CAS in a war that Pakistan started. PAF was also MIA in a lot of incidents when IAF crossed the border to do recce, as explained in two links given above, written by a former PAF pilot.

Open that link of Kaisar tufail and read the whole incident instead of indulging in jingoism and do read my edited post once again so some sense prevails in you as to how Air Forces work during conventional and unconventional warfares.

 

[SwAggeR]

lol @ pakistani mindsets , who are jumping about 2001 and 2008 but still someone from among them everyday threaten to nuke India on forum.

If they are really what they claim then just sign on No First Use and commit 2001 or 2008 type terrorism.Bloody terrorist barking from the shades of nuclear umbrella.

 

[GORKHALI]

Yup, history like in Pathankot, Kalaikunda, Ambala.....since we are talking about airforce, i will not mention Chahmb, Mukerian and few others.

Keep calm and read slowly :
Hostilities officially ended at 14:30 GMT on 17 December, after the fall of Dacca on 15 December. India claimed large gains of territory in West Pakistan (although pre-war boundaries were recognised after the war), and the independence of Pakistan's East wing as Bangladesh was confirmed. India flew 1,978 sorties in the East and about 4,000 in the West, while the PAF flew about 30 and 2,840. More than 80 percent of the IAF's sorties were close-support and interdiction.
Western Pakistani airfields of Murid, Mianwali, Sargodha, Chander, Risalewala, Rafiqui, and Masroor. In total, 23 combat sorties were launched that night, inflicting heavy damage to Sargodha and Masroor.

 

[SpArK]

The article is about procurement issues and about shortage of squadron strength which has been posted a hundred times in the forum over a few years.

There is nothing, I say NOTHING new apart from the above issue stated ANYWHERE in the opening article.

To translate that into a term called "underperform" by changing the title is very very funny and very much expected.

I dont wish to comment further.

Lemme laugh it out and move on. Oh dear !

 

[janon]

There was no coordination b/w PA and PAF in kargil ops. hence no PAF over kargil. Do tell me IAF came in middle of kargil ops after a bitter fight with IA over conducting ops right ? Initially there was no IAF over kargil as well

Jingoism blowing hot air, is this hall mark of indians ?

Arey, your military's ineptitude and lack of co-ordination is not my fault, is it? You can give a hundred excuses as to why PAF was MIA - but the fact remains that it wa s MIA. You can blame the army, air force, command chain, or whatever you want. But the fact is that after Pakistan stupidly sent ground forces into India, PAF was in no position to support them, or to think of opposing IAF aircrafts bombing them till kingdom come.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

“Throughout the campaign, whenever IAF reconnaissance or ground attack operations were under way in the immediate combat zone, Western Air Command ensured that MiG-29s or other air-to-air fighters were also airborne on combat air patrol stations over the ground fighting on India’s side of the LoC to provide top cover against any attempt by the PAF to enter the fray in a ground attack role.

PAF F-16s to the west typically maintained a safe distance of 10 to 20 miles on the Pakistani side of the LoC, although they occasionally approached as close as 8 miles away from the ongoing ground engagements.”

Lambeth quotes Air Marshal (retired) Vinod Patney, the then head of Western Air Command: “I think my insistence to mount CAPs across the (command’s entire area of responsibility) at different heights and times to give the message that I was ready and angling for an enlarged conflict helped. It was akin to throwing a glove, but it was not picked up.”

MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons | Russia & India Report

 

[Windjammer]

Lack of nerves!



why waste billions of $ on conventional warfare where there are other alternatives India learnt those alternatives from Pakistani state quite late.

When no other excuse is left..........typical Indian escape from the argument.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

When no other excuse is left..........typical Indian escape from the argument.

Without entering into ANY direct conflict RAW has done a lot of damage from 2008 onwards

In Kargil your PAF DID not respond to the challenge and ran away

 

[anant_s]

The report suggests high rate of MiG 21 crashes without looking at new fighters and force multipliers being inducted. While induction rate of newer fighetrs isn't going on at a desirable rate, induction of AWACS, Up gradation of both Mirage 2K and MiG 29, Mid air refuellers is an aspect that is conveniently forgotten.

Last time any skirmish happened between the air forces, it was over Rann of Kutch where Mig 21 Shot down a P-3 Orion. Since then nothing has happened. Experts can do as much pondering as possible, but till some actual action takes place, these reports will remain paper analysis at best.