The Grand Modi illusion

[gau8av]

A lot of those so called shudras are dwija today in one was to go by Gunas and a lot of so called born higher castes are shudras or worse by their Gunas.

and what defines one's gunas ?

 

[Samudra Manthan]

and what defines one's gunas ?

Talent, disposition, inclination, and then education.

 

[gau8av]

Talent, disposition, inclination, and then education.

but scoring positively on those is not exclusive to Bhramins

 

[Samudra Manthan]

but scoring positively on those is not exclusive to Bhramins

Yes and that is how it was in the Vedas as well as Manusmriti. Codification of caste hierarchy into this rigid system we have now is not ancient. It was started by the British and preserved and propagated by Congress.

 

[gau8av]

Yes and that is how it was in the Vedas as well as Manusmriti. Codification of caste hierarchy into this rigid system we have now is not ancient. It was started by the British and preserved and propagated by Congress.

then I take it you are of the view that it needs to go ?

 

[Samudra Manthan]

then I take it you are of the view that it needs to go ?

What is there to go? It is gone. Do you modify your behavior according to the caste of the person you are speaking to? Do you choose your profession according to the caste you were born in to? No, for all practical purposes caste is dead. Only area it is significant is in arranged marriages and that is pretty much a matter of choice and cannot be called discrimination.

 

[vsdoc]

What is there to go? It is gone. Do you modify your behavior according to the caste of the person you are speaking to? Do you choose your profession according to the caste you were born in to? No, for all practical purposes caste is dead. Only area it is significant is in arranged marriages and that is pretty much a matter of choice and cannot be called discrimination.

I agree with this way of looking at the whole dalit, sc/st/obc, reservation thing.

Time we figured out a way to get the help to those who need it today, rather than those whose ancestors needed it a hundred years (or more) ago.

Also time to figure out when and where and how to give that help, without dragging the country behind in trying to pull some of its citizens forward.

 

[Samudra Manthan]

I agree with this way of looking at the whole dalit, sc/st/obc, reservation thing.

Time we figured out a way to get the help to those who need it today, rather than those whose ancestors needed it a hundred years (or more) ago.

Also time to figure out when and where and how to give that help, without dragging the country behind in trying to pull some of its citizens forward.

Actually, it is a bit more complex than that. Reservations for ST/SC was a requirement given that they constituted the most socially and economically deprived section of the society. It is an affirmative action to bring them at par with the rest of the society. It was making a restitution for past wrongs rather than based on current societal situation. OBC reservation on the other hand was purely vote banks manipulation.

Even if we were to make economical background as a criteria for affirmative action, 80% of that segment would still comprise of SC/ST only given that they make the bulk of our poor even today.

I do not support economics as a criteria for reservation since it incentivizes a poor person to stay poor and milk the system. The creamy layer in SC/ST segment should also be kept out of any quota.

 

[vsdoc]

I do not support economics as a criteria for reservation since it incentivizes a poor person to stay poor and milk the system. The creamy layer in SC/ST segment should also be kept out of any quota.

Economics is everything.

You have reservation to bring equilibrium to disparate economics.

It does not change the attitudes of people on a social level. Nor is it meant to.

If you give 10 poor people the benefits of reservation, some of them are going to make it.

The ones who do not, their kids form part of the next 10.

But the number keeps shrinking.

 

[gau8av]

What is there to go? It is gone. Do you modify your behavior according to the caste of the person you are speaking to? Do you choose your profession according to the caste you were born in to? No, for all practical purposes caste is dead. Only area it is significant is in arranged marriages and that is pretty much a matter of choice and cannot be called discrimination.

good point and true for the most part but it's still rampant in rural India, hopefully that diminishes with development and economic empowerment but even among the "elite", while it might be mostly relevant and practiced wrt marriage, some do cling on very tightly to the perceived prestige, and from what I've seen, tam-brams are the worst, I've been told off as a lower level brahmin myself , but that was among friends having a beer, but it's telling of how we're all structured, it should be gone by the next generation.

 

[vsdoc]

good point and true for the most part but it's still rampant in rural India, hopefully that diminishes with development and economic empowerment but even among the "elite", while it might be mostly relevant and practiced wrt marriage, some do cling on very tightly to the perceived prestige, and from what I've seen, tam-brams are the worst, I've been told off as a lower level brahmin myself , but that was among friends having a beer, but it's telling of how we're all structured, it should be gone by the next generation.

As long as its telling, snootiness, social snobbery, looking down, etc. its really not something the state can do anything about.

What the state should (and does) do is making sure that everyone enjoys equal rights and has the same responsibilities.

Both protected and enforceable by the state.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I see reservation as a mirror of Hindu society. Our society loves to have different classes, earlier we had castes and now we have reservation.
Hindus are unenlightened to the concept of equality and to the fact that a society can run sans classes.
Hardik Patel is a product of the cavernous divides that exists in a Hindu society.
It's high time hindu religion, which has survived more than thousand years, tackled an evil called caste system.
*********

I have no complaints against Modi government. They are doing fine. JMHO!

Class is a Hindu problem? I thought the Greeks, and in recent times the French, a German and the Russians did a lot of work on that front. But wait. Let's just bash the Hindus.

 

[Rasengan]

Not surprised that it took you 2 years to figure that out. Intelligence was never your strength, sucking up to pakistanis and being a collaborator was.
.

Please don't involve Pakistani's in your domestic politics

 

[Samudra Manthan]

Economics is everything.

You have reservation to bring equilibrium to disparate economics.

It does not change the attitudes of people on a social level. Nor is it meant to.

If you give 10 poor people the benefits of reservation, some of them are going to make it.

The ones who do not, their kids form part of the next 10.

But the number keeps shrinking.

No they do not keep shrinking as borne out by the number of people who get on economic reservation in both Europe and USA. It is a bad idea. After a time, even the hard workers stop working and get on the bandwagon of doles. As of today 120 million people in USA are on some or other form of state benefits. That is literally half the population.

 

[vsdoc]

No they do not keep shrinking as borne out by the number of people who get on economic reservation in both Europe and USA. It is a bad idea. After a time, even the hard workers stop working and get on the bandwagon of doles. As of today 120 million people in USA are on some or other form of state benefits. That is literally half the population.

Please man.

You are comparing dole to reservation.

Putting a fish into a man's mouth vs teaching him how to fish.