The Glory of the Mughal Empire

[scorpionx]

So you are also questioning the accession of Kashmir to India?

No,I never questioned the accession of Kashmir to India. Nehruvian policy made it complicated for Indians,not me.

Or are you saying these were the only three that were left on 15 August 1947?

Out of the major princely states,yes.

It doesn't matter what one dreams of. What matters is their action. Every one of 300 princely states dreamt of independence,

Department of States was formed by Mountbatten. Sardar Patel was heading it and by hooks or crooks every monarch was annexed except these big three.

 

[MST]

No,I never questioned the accession of Kashmir to India. Nehruvian policy made it complicated for Indians,not me.


Out of the princely states,yes.


Department of States was formed by Mountbatten. Sardar Patel was heading it and by hooks or crooks every monarch was annexed except these big three.

Exactly. If Most of the States were annexed by Hook or Crook then why point out Kashmir. Thats all my point. In each case it was the rulers who decided the fate of the State. Why raise question only about Kashmir.

Kashmir's accession was corrrect in every sense. And by questioning it we are also insulting thousands of Kashmiri Muslims and Hindus and Indian Army who fought back the illegal aggression of Pakistani Army and Tribals in 1947-48.


I didn't raise question about Hyderabad or Junagad. Its correct that they didn't fall in line.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Not exactly. Proto-Turkics are Altaic siberians related to Yakuts who are 60-100% East Asian:
Proto-Turkic language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Xiongnu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saka on the other hand are Iranic tribes:
Saka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kingdom of Khotan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yuezhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indo-Scythians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The ancestors of the Indo-Scythians are thought to be Sakas (Scythian) tribes.

"One group of Indo-European speakers that makes an early appearance on the Xinjiang stage is the Saka (Ch. Sai). Saka is more a generic term than a name for a specific state or ethnic group; Saka tribes were part of a cultural continuum of early nomads across Siberia and the Central Eurasian steppe lands from Xinjiang to the Black Sea. Like the Scythians whom Herodotus describes in book four of his History (Saka is an Iranian word equivalent to the Greek Scythos, and many scholars refer to them together as Saka-Scythian), Sakas were Iranian-speaking horse nomads who deployed chariots in battle, sacrificed horses, and buried their dead in barrows or mound tombs called kurgans."[7]

Yuezhi expansion
In the 2nd century BC, a fresh nomadic movement started among the Central Asian tribes, producing lasting effects on the history of Rome in Europe and Bactria, Kabul, Parthia and India in the east. Recorded in the annals of the Han dynasty and other Chinese records, this great tribal movement began after the Yuezhi tribe was defeated by the Xiongnu, fleeing westwards after their defeat and creating a domino effect as they displaced other central Asian tribes in their path.

According to these ancient sources Modu Shanyu of the Xiongnu tribe of Mongolia attacked the Yuezhi and evicted them from their homeland between the Qilian Shan and Dunhuang. Leaving behind a remnant of their number, most of the population moved westwards.[8]

Early Indian literature records military alliances between the Sakas, Kambojas, Pahlavas and Paradas. Ancient Puranic traditions mention several joint invasions of India by Scythians. The conflict between the Bahu-Sagara of India and the Haihaya-Kamboja-Saka-Pahlava-Parada is well known as the war fought by "five hordes" (pāňca-ganha). The Sakas, Yavanas, Tusharas and Kambojas also fought the Kurukshetra war under the command of Sudakshina Kamboja. The Valmiki Ramayana also attests that the Sakas, Kambojas, Pahlavas and Yavanas fought together against the Vedic, Hinduking Vishwamitra of Kanauj.[citation needed] (doubtful)

Around 175 BC, the Yuezhi tribes (possibly related to the Tocharians who lived in eastern Tarim Basin area), were defeated by the Xiongnu tribes, and fled west into the Ili river area. There, they displaced the Sakas, who migrated south into Ferghana and Sogdiana. According to the Chinese historical chronicles (who call the Sakas, "Sai" 塞):

"The Yuezhi attacked the king of the Sai who moved a considerable distance to the south and the Yuezhi then occupied his lands" (Hanshu 61 4B).

Sometime after 155 BC, the Yuezhi were again defeated by an alliance of the Wusun and the Xiongnu, and were forced to move south, again displacing the Scythians, who migrated south towards Bactria, and south-west towards Parthia and Afghanistan.

The Sakas seem to have entered the territory of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom around 145 BC, where they burnt to the ground the Greek city of Alexandria on the Oxus. The Yuezhi remained in Sogdiana on the northern bank of the Oxus, but they became suzerains of the Sakas in Bactrian territory, as described by the Chinese ambassador Zhang Qian who visited the region around 126 BC.

In Parthia, between 138–124 BC, the Sakas tribes of the Massagetae and Sacaraucae came into conflict with the Parthian Empire, winning several battles, and killing successively King Phraates II and King Artabanus I.

The Parthian king Mithridates II finally retook control of Central Asia, first by defeating the Yuezhi in Sogdiana in 115 BC, and then defeating the Scythians in Parthia and Seistan around 100 BC.[citation needed]

After their defeat, the Yuezhi tribes migrated into Bactria, which they were to control for several centuries, and from which they later conquered northern India to found the Kushan Empire."

Pashtuns just like Punjabi's may be remnants of this tribe. In both places they got mixed with pre-existing local population and the reason why they look different and have different genetic make up. Muslim ruling families in these areas of course got genetic contribution from later Turkic and Turko-Mongol invasions.

Its possible that Sikh's may have some small admixture from East Asian neighbors from those early times, but its no longer noticeable. Genetic admixture study may be able to reveal the extent of any North East Asian genes in Sikh population.

So my best guess:
Yuezhi/Tokharian Iranic + ANI (Ancestral North Indian) + ASI (Ancestral South Indian) = Sikh

Hehe that is BS. I hope u realize punjabi muslims and sikhs are practically from the same ethnic stock. The only difference is religion

 

[scorpionx]

Exactly. If Most of the States were annexed by Hook or Crook then why point out Kashmir. Thats all my point. In each case it was the rulers who decided the fate of the State. Why raise question only about Kashmir.

Kashmir's accession was corrrect in every sense. And by questioning it we are also insulting thousands of Kashmiri Muslims and Hindus and Indian Army who fought back the illegal aggression of Pakistani Army and Tribals in 1947-48.


I didn't raise question about Hyderabad or Junagad. Its correct that they didn't fall in line.

New nations were being formed and clashes were inevitable.Kashmir's annexation whether incorrect or not might be a separate topic for debate. As far as facts are concerned, no body in 1947 expected Kashmir under Indian Union. But it's a separate issue and needs more space to discuss.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Not all punjabi muslims , only certains clans.

Yeah but those clans form the bulk of the population. Sons of the soil my bro

 

[Butchcassidy]

Most of those clans don't even consider themselves sons of the soil , every second clan in pakistan has its origin somewhere in arabia, persia or central asia etc.

Its just a fad, will pass with time. Maybe 100 years from now arabs and persians will look for their origin on the banks of indus

 

[Butchcassidy]

Also these clans (namely jatt clans shared by Sikhs and few muslims) don't form bulk of pakistani punjab population by any stretch of imagination except in few eastern districts along the border of punjab.

What would be the percentage of jatts, rajputs and gujjars in punjab?

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

Rajputs in pakistani punjab don't equate themselves with Jatts or Gujjars, they look down upon them. Gujjars are not found in significant numbers among indian sikhs or indian punjab so they are also irrelevant. Only jatts can be seen people common on both sides of border but only the jatts living in eastern districts have some common surnames with indian sikhs and actually speak central punjabi dialect. The percentage of these eastern punjabi jatts is not more than 10 % of overall pakistani punjab population.

with sikhs its not only jatts, you have ramgharia's, pappe, pishori and god knows what
never found these topic interesting, I esp don't discriminate with girls, if they are sexy , well hell it doesnt matter who she is :p

 

[Foot12]

Meh :p

Maybe the interior is better?


Thanks for your honestly unlike others

Well, there are hundreds of such buildings in whole India so its impossible to post the pictures of all the buildings.
But some of my favorite ancient and medieval buildings of India are
The Ranakpur temple was built by Rana Kumbha in the 15th century (200 years before the Taj Mahal was built).

The Taranga Temple was built in the 13th century by Kumarpal (400 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

The Chola Temple was built by Rajendra Chola in the 11th century (more than 600 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

The Orchha Palace was built by the Hindu Bundela rulers in the 16th century (100 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

The Amber Palace built by Raja Man Singh in the 16th century( 100 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

Madurai Temple built in the 16th century (100 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

The Konark Temple built in the 13th century (more than 400 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

Teli Ka Mandir Temple built in the 9th century(more than 800 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

The Hoysala Temple was built in the 12th century (more than 500 years before the Taj Mahal was built)

 

[Pakistanisage]

The Mughals brought Culture, Architectural Beauty, Mughal Cuisine and Poetry to the Sub Continent.

They definitely improved the Quality of Life in Indian Sub Continent.

 

[suresh1773]

mughals on lion and safavids on a goat?(or is it dog?)
where are iranians... they will go mad if they see this.

It is a goat.According to Islamic tradition,dogs are considered as unclean,further it even forbids muslims to keep dogs says one article

 

[suresh1773]

Brothers, as far as Islam is concerned Pakistan or the Indus basin has been muslim for far longer than the mughals. There have been sufis preaching Islam in Pakistan for more than a thousand years etc. @Nihonjin1051 @atatwolf@KingMamba

When did Indus basin covert into Islam??,please let me know.Before Islam came,the Hindus & the Buddhist were ruling Pakistan for more then thousands of years

 

[Chak Bamu]

Please allow me to point out a few factual inaccuracies.

@Nihonjin1051 , Lahore was not founded in 16th century. The article you shared is wrong in saying that. Nobody really knows how old Lahore is. The old city lies buried under Lahore Fort and other parts of present old city that are densely populated. Ghazanavids conquered Lahore in end of 10th, century and the Persian language references to Lahore date from that period. Earlier one finds references to Lahore with variations of spelling and little differing pronunciations such as Loharu, The earliest known graves date from 11th century, while suspected graves date from even 6th / 7th centuries (can not be confirmed because of religious reasons). Hindu religious rites stress burning of the dead, while Islam prescribes burial. Ayaz, a slave of Mahmud of Ghazni and governor of Lahore is buried in Lahore. I recently happened to found his grave in a very densely populated area of "Shah Alami" neighborhood.

Hindu mythology attributes foundation of Lahore to Loh, son of god Ram around 1200 BC. There of course is no way of verifying that at all, but Lahore has probably existed for close to 2000 years. The silt-laden rivers originating from Himalayas ensure that very old settlements get wiped out over time in plains of Punjab and Hindustan. That makes archaeology difficult.

@Butchcassidy , Among Muslim Punjabis there is a significant element of Pashtun and Mughal/Mongol genes that stems from at least 11th century onwards. In Western Punjab there are millions of people who have Pashtun and Mughal blood. A neighborhood of Lahore is named Mughalpura because of Mongols who settled there much before Mughal empire, during Slave dynasty of Sultanate of Delhi. Most of black smiths around here are descended from them. Me and you probably share very similar genetic material, but there is indeed a lot of diversity.

@mughal arslan shah mirza , Mughals were practically secular. Though Aurangzeb gets a lot of flak, but he is on record as saying that religion has nothing to do with affairs of state (Ahkam-i-Alamgiri). Aurangzeb's son(s) had Rajput wives just like other Mughal princes before them. The bond between Rajputs and Mughals is what gave strength to Mughal empire. The 'hate' you've pointed out in one of your posts was not a practical matter. From Akbar to Shah Jehan there existed a sect of Hindu people who attributed divine qualities to emperors. Only Aurangzeb quit the practice of morning Darshan, which was a regular morning occurrence from Akbar to Jehangir to Shah Jahan.

@hinduguy , please note last paragraph. Mughals married Rajput princesses to give their reign longevity through an alliance with Rajputs. It was a regular occurrence and not something that happened twice, as you have said in one of your posts.

When did Indus basin covert into Islam??,please let me know.Before Islam came,the Hindus & the Buddhist were ruling Pakistan for more then thousands of years

From 7th century on-wards Muslims have been part of the local scene at least in Southern half of today's Pakistan. Multan alternated between Muslims and Hindus / Buddhists. Even for a time Qarmatians, as heretical sect ruled Multan in 9th (?) century ruled Multan which was their last outpost before them going extinct.

Punjab of course never left Muslim dominion from end of 9th century to the beginning of 19th.

It is a goat.According to Islamic tradition,dogs are considered as unclean,further it even forbids muslims to keep dogs says one article

That picture is quite an insult for multiple reasons. But the animal under Shah Abbas's feet is a sheep. Its nice to see Mughal empire as being depicted as a lion. But Mughals could not retake Qandahar once they lost it to Safavids.

 

[Lonely Hermit]

The Mughals brought Culture, Architectural Beauty, Mughal Cuisine and Poetry to the Sub Continent.

They definitely improved the Quality of Life in Indian Sub Continent.

They where central asian Barbarian who brought nothing but death & destruction, the culture poetry you are talking about is all Persian which assimilated in with already present culture in subcontinent .

 

[Aepsilons]

The Flag of the Mughal Empire