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The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

Perhaps it is much more difficult.

But if something along the lines of the Andorran solution for Kashmir is up front, formally agreed to, some of the other problems you allude to without specifics will start to diminish.

You have to start somewhere, why not the most visible excuse in the past to fight each other...fixing Kashmir?

I actually not only served in Pakistan (West) but for several years thereafter was an International Banking Officer in NYC dealing, among other places, with all the Indian subcontinent in a "banking" sense.

My reserve work ended up with me being defactor chief of computerized wargamming, worldwide, for HQ US Special Ops Command.

Of course I didn't then nor now ever "know it all" but I do understand the beneath the surface problems, but do note, happily, that more Muslims exist in India today, as democracy, than in Pakistan, a theocracy.


But the question is how to fix Kashmir… I believe even Pakistan would not support Andorran type solution for Kashmir, because most waters that flow into Pakistan are from Kashmir. Having an independent entity means almost giving up waters that flow into Pakistan territory. That would be terrible for its economy. In a way, I feel, Pakistan would prefer status quo than an Andorran type solution
 
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The Andorran Model, acceptable to the Kashmiris involved with the JKLF, are the subject of who wants what.

Your view is honest and open as to the rivers and waters. But, those remain status quo and would continue to exist as is under the existsing rivers and waters treaties. No changes there. People still have to go along to get along so to speak.

The concept of Pakistan, India, and China remaining in charge of national security and international affairs speaks to that...as does the in existance today Indus and related water/dam treaties. Those remain in force, as I wrote before.

I presume to know but do not know the hard facts, that today for example that Pakistan sells power generated from the Mangla Dam which built with World Bank with US financial support earns electricity sales revenue. IF an Andorran Model Kashmir central Parliament were created with a stand alone non-religious constitution for all three parts, the Mangla Dam would have to complete, if not yet completed, it's worldwide debt amortization. But if that amortization is already completed (likely the case) then the operation of Mangal Dam would continue but the revenue should then reflect income to the Kashmir Parliamentary system to help fund public (not religious) schools and any other non-sectarian infrastructure which meet daily needs of the ordinary grassroots Kashmiri.

I did not give this detail, power revenue sharing, net of overhead which has to be paid always, even if capital debt is paid off, you still have overhead cost of operating, maintaining, repairing, and generally running outfits like the Mangla Dam, in my prior articles on using the Andorran Model. I offer it now to get the subject of water and hydro power out in the open so it is not a shadow factor in negotiations over the future of all parts of Kashmir.

A British engineer who was a social friend of mine worked on the Mangla Dam project. A humerous example of in 1965 poor understanding of the "meaning" of language in business was when he asked his Kashmir office clerk to "post some documents to the file." The young, semi-literate office clear got a pot of office glue and "posted" as is glued the pages of the document onto the side of the metal filing cabinet!

To be fair, in Karachi, later, as my engineering friend got his property ready to be shipped back to UK when his job contract was up told a Texaco station employee to change the oil and to grease his Triumph TR-4. The Texaco station employee dutifully spread grease all over the outside of the Triumph, due to his limited understanding of English! This time we are not talking about a semi-literate Kashmiri but about a semi-literate native of Karach/Sind.

These two examples, up north and down south, in then West Pakistan demonstrated and may even today for all I know demonstrate the raw lack of language education in English, the most common language inside Pakistan...which emphasizes the great need for basic English language training in the few, you need more, free public schools for all people of all walks of life inside today's Pakistan. Parochial emphasis on Urdu, Pashtu, etc. does not help people improve their lot in the economic world, there or internationally, from the bottom of the economic ladder on up.

In summary what I thinkchanges under an Andorran Model is to have a single Kashmiri Parliamenet which over many lifetimes would sort things out peacefully and quietly, not all the bravado back and forth which currently is limited to just Pakistan and India. China's grab of a piece of Kashmir in 1960 was "cheered on" by religious extremists even back then in Pakistan who then, and perhaps even now, would "goad" or "insult" India at every chance. This is and was all driven by differences over religion which is not what is needed today, and was harmful back then. Hatred and illiteracy driven in the wrong channels by religous thugs "in the name of religion" are a curse and help hold down, suppress, and keep in abject poverty and servitude the poorest among you.

Thanks for your opinion, which is important, as your concerns are important, but the wants and needs of all the Kashmiris themselves should come first...the water resources have long been the hidden worry-agenda and should not be such under the Andorran Model.

What everyone wants, including me as a outsider who cares about the future of the entire Indian subcontinent, is to end the excuse of threats of war over Kashmir. The average Kashmiri will have a unified vote but the three nations are still practically in charge of international relations and defense matters. Difference is everyone has to work together for the common good of the Kashmiris instead of focusing on religions and this country vs. that country. That is out of date thinking.

Remember, President Musharraf was working on an Andorran Model...the ISI in Pakistan was against it and him, and he is now deposed. Etc.

Cheers.
 
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The Andorran Model, acceptable to the Kashmiris involved with the JKLF, are the subject of who wants what.

Your view is honest and open as to the rivers and waters. But, those remain status quo and would continue to exist as is under the existsing rivers and waters treaties. No changes there. People still have to go along to get along so to speak.

The concept of Pakistan, India, and China remaning in charge of national security and international affairs speaks to that...as does the in existance today Indus and related water/dam treaties. Those remain in force, as I wrote before.

What changes is to have a single Kashmiri Parliamenet which over many lifetimes would sort things out peacefully and quietly, not all the bravado back and forth.

Thanks for your opinion, which is important, as your concerns are important, but the wants and needs of all the Kashmiris themselves should come first...the water resources have long been the hidden worry-agenda and should not be such under the Andorran Model.

What everyone wants, including me as a outsider who cares about the future of the entire Indian subcontinent, is to end the excuse of threats of war over Kashmir. The average Kashmiri will have a unified vote but the three nations are still practically in charge of international relations and defense matters. Difference is everyone has to work together for the common good of the Kashmiris instead of focusing on religions and this country vs. that country. That is out of date thinking.

Remember, President Musharraf was working on an Andorran Model...the ISI in Pakistan was against it and him, and he is now deposed. Etc.

Cheers.

Mr. Singleton,

Thanks for your opinion and concern. I have read some of the articles you wrote and I liked them. I agree with you that the Andorra model has a certain attraction, especially for those who advocate the independence option for Jammu and Kashmir. I agree with you that the wants and needs of all the Kashmiris should come first; however, the concern is who is a Kashmiris. Unlike Andorra, Kashmir is not a homogeneous region; it has Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh, Aksai Chin and PAK. The question is how Andorra model is going to take care of aspirations of each of the regions; moreover there is another question of the aspiration of Kashmiri Pundits, who were forced to leave the Valley. Moreover, unlike Andorra, here the emotions on Kashmir run very high on both sides and accepting a solution that makes Kashmir (Muslim-majority state in a Hindu majority country) a quasi Independent state means reject the very foundation of India that is secularity and would have wide consequences in rest of India.

However, I feel a tweaked Andorra model could be a solution.

1) Line actual control be converted to international border
2) Full autonomy to J&K and Pakistan administered Kashmir but would be integral part of India and Pakistan respectively.
3) Free movement of people and trade across both sides with out any documents

Cheers
 
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Here you go:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/348959-post368.html

These solutions also mentions the LoC into IB thingy, but does that mean i would accede to it?

Arey yaar.....

This plebiscite crap only i was speaking abt...

How do u propose to conduct a plebiscite or wat moral rights does Pakistan have to demand a plebiscite after they themselves have violated the UNSC resolutions on two different occasions:-
1) Violating the resolutions by unilaterally gifting a part of the princely state of Kashmir to China (now dont get me started on wether NA are a disputed area or not...)

2) Violating the ceasefire by initiating Op.Gibralter in hope of Militarily securing wat u couldn secure before 18 years.

So the Plebiscite demand goes down the drain.

But since this prob between India and Pak cant go on for ever and since no country (India,Pak) will be satisfied with a loss of terrirtoy
the only possible solution according to current ground realities is

LOC into IB.


Thank u for ur concern...but care abt urself first.!!
 
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Arey yaar.....

This plebiscite crap only i was speaking abt...

How do u propose to conduct a plebiscite or wat moral rights does Pakistan have to demand a plebiscite after they themselves have violated the UNSC resolutions on two different occasions:-
1) Violating the resolutions by unilaterally gifting a part of the princely state of Kashmir to China (now dont get me started on wether NA are a disputed area or not...)

2) Violating the ceasefire by initiating Op.Gibralter in hope of Militarily securing wat u couldn secure before 18 years.

So the Plebiscite demand goes down the drain.

But since this prob between India and Pak cant go on for ever and since no country (India,Pak) will be satisfied with a loss of terrirtoy
the only possible solution according to current ground realities is

LOC into IB.



Thank u for ur concern...but care abt urself first.!!

arey yaar don't get me started on junagadh & hyderabad dispute! which in many ways is similar to the dispute of kashmir by which the population was of a different faith from its ruler! and yet india quickly annexed it & held a plebiscite!

& areey yaar let's not get started on indian invasion of siachen or east pakistan!



so plebiciste deamnd is valid!
 
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arey yaar don't get me started on junagadh & hyderabad dispute! which in many ways is similar to the dispute of kashmir by which the population was of a different faith from its ruler! and yet india quickly annexed it & held a plebiscite!

& areey yaar let's not get started on indian invasion of siachen or east pakistan!



so plebiciste deamnd is valid!

Please do start about these issues. But in their relevant threads. This discussion is about kashmir. None of the disputes that you have mentioned have got anything to do with the UN resolutions.

Except Siachen of course. And as you know, the LoC ends where the glacier starts :yahoo::yahoo:
 
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In response to jade1982, thank you for your clear cut, well thoughout points and suggestions. This is your agenda to work out, I am only an outsider/kibitzer. But the press of Pakistan over the years since 9/11 along with some websites like KHYBERWATCH.COM have picked up the thread and literal article I wrote in a Nov. 2006 issue of the Peshawar FRONTIER POST and ran it as a lead article for over two years on their website.

It was the FRONTIER POST article by me which caused the initial contacts with me, on going, from the UK based JKLF folks, who shared their interest in the Andorran Model as one possible solution...which it turns out was at the top of the list of options which I think then President Musharraf pursued.

You, jade 1982, and others recognize this is a touchy topic but the more fully it can be outlined in the open for better public awareness and understanding the better of will be the domestic and national security of all three parties now involved in Kashmir, Pakistan, India, and China.

To single out one comment by jade1982: I agree with making the LOC the factual boundary between and among the three parts of Kashmir. But simultaneously you then have to have open borders, free trade, and free right of travel. But, this of course raises the horror of intrigue and religiously driven game playing to create havoc and upsets. Yes, I am aware of how complex it can be.

But a start is necessary. Both India and Pakistan's ISI or equivlaent to the ISI must be controlled and prevented from training, funding, and using terrorists in disguise to create religious mayhem.
 
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In response to jade1982, thank you for your clear cut, well thoughout points and suggestions. This is your agenda to work out, I am only an outsider/kibitzer. But the press of Pakistan over the years since 9/11 along with some websites like KHYBERWATCH.COM have picked up the thread and literal article I wrote in a Nov. 2006 issue of the Peshawar FRONTIER POST and ran it as a lead article for over two years on their website.

It was the FRONTIER POST article by me which caused the initial contacts with me, on going, from the UK based JKLF folks, who shared their interest in the Andorran Model as one possible solution...which it turns out was at the top of the list of options which I think then President Musharraf pursued.

You, jade 1982, and others recognize this is a touchy topic but the more fully it can be outlined in the open for better public awareness and understanding the better of will be the domestic and national security of all three parties now involved in Kashmir, Pakistan, India, and China.

To single out one comment by jade1982: I agree with making the LOC the factual boundary between and among the three parts of Kashmir. But simultaneously you then have to have open borders, free trade, and free right of travel. But, this of course raises the horror of intrigue and religiously driven game playing to create havoc and upsets. Yes, I am aware of how complex it can be.

But a start is necessary. Both India and Pakistan's ISI or equivlaent to the ISI must be controlled and prevented from training, funding, and using terrorists in disguise to create religious mayhem.

Thanks Mr. Singleton, I could not agree with you more
 
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Arey yaar.....

This plebiscite crap only i was speaking abt...

How do u propose to conduct a plebiscite or wat moral rights does Pakistan have to demand a plebiscite after they themselves have violated the UNSC resolutions on two different occasions:-
1) Violating the resolutions by unilaterally gifting a part of the princely state of Kashmir to China (now dont get me started on wether NA are a disputed area or not...)

2) Violating the ceasefire by initiating Op.Gibralter in hope of Militarily securing wat u couldn secure before 18 years.

So the Plebiscite demand goes down the drain.
Run in circles, i's guud for your health.

But since this prob between India and Pak cant go on for ever and since no country (India,Pak) will be satisfied with a loss of terrirtoy
the only possible solution according to current ground realities is

LOC into IB.

No, in this case (if no country will be satisfied with a loss of territory) the only prevalent solution is that you keep on committing .5 million army in Kashmir who get slaughtered just every day.



BTW, it's a UN demand that a plebiscite should be held, no way and no action what so ever can over rule its implementation, less the shameless, unethical and blatant refusal/denial of the Resolution by india itself, you are just wasting your time.
 
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Operation Gibralter was the Pakistani war plan cooked up by General Musa and Foreign Minister Z. A. Bhutto, together with then President Ayub Khan.

Maybe you can slow down and read on the Internet the historic outline and summery and offer a more precise or concise opinion with the facts attributed to India and Pakistan as you see the facts.

As for the UN Resolution on Kashmir, there is also a UN Resolution creating Israel in 1947, together co-equally with creation of a Palestinian nation. The Arab countries at that time, plus brand new Pakistan, voted against that UN Resolution which would have empowered and created a co-equal Palestine.

Folks get a lot of history and facts/figures mixed up, I am sure, unintentionally.

One fact I stay focused on is that Pakistan is not an Arab country and in my view can do without crazy religious Wahabbi Arabs from Saudi Arabia who infest the madrassas of Pakitan today.
 
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Operation Gibralter was the Pakistani war plan cooked up by General Musa and Foreign Minister Z. A. Bhutto, together with then President Ayub Khan.
Thanks for the revealing info!


As for the UN Resolution on Kashmir, there is also a UN Resolution creating Israel in 1947, together co-equally with creation of a Palestinian nation. The Arab countries at that time, plus brand new Pakistan, voted against that UN Resolution which would have empowered and created a co-equal Palestine.
Right, so you agree it is always guud to accept UN Reolutions, they always bring peace.

Folks get a lot of history and facts/figures mixed up, I am sure, unintentionally.

One fact I stay focused on is that Pakistan is not an Arab country and in my view can do without crazy religious Wahabbi Arabs from Saudi Arabia who infest the madrassas of Pakitan today.

America is also not a jewsih country, in my view can do without crazy zionists from israel who infest the policy making America today.
 
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BTW, it's a UN demand that a plebiscite should be held, no way and no action what so ever can over rule its implementation, less the shameless, unethical and blatant refusal/denial of the Resolution by india itself, you are just wasting your time.

First, let me enlighten you that any UNSC resolution passed through chapter VI are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability. Kashmir is one such resolution. No country or body on this earth can force India to enforce UNSC resolution on Kashmir. World realizes this and it is time that Pakistan also realize this.

Second, this intransigence on UN resolution/plebiscite is not going to take Pakistan anywhere. Remember, India is 8 times bigger than Pakistan and growing at a rate of almost 9% every year. We are ready to wait for another 200 years, are you ready?
 
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Run in circles, i's guud for your health.

Bury ur head in sand....No problems for u.

No, in this case (if no country will be satisfied with a loss of territory) the only prevalent solution is that you keep on committing .5 million army in Kashmir who get slaughtered just every day.

If it is required we r prepared/able to do that.We have the economy,will power and man power to do that. No problemo.

BTW, it's a UN demand that a plebiscite should be held, no way and no action what so ever can over rule its implementation, less the shameless, unethical and blatant refusal/denial of the Resolution by india itself, you are just wasting your time.

Similarly its a UN demand that Pakistan get back the terrirtoy it unilaterally gifted to its friend,a UN demand to stop supporting cross-border terrorism,A UN demand not to violate ceasefire..

I dont see Pakistan following it...So there is no condition India should follow either.
:wave::wave:
 
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arey yaar don't get me started on junagadh & hyderabad dispute! which in many ways is similar to the dispute of kashmir by which the population was of a different faith from its ruler! and yet india quickly annexed it & held a plebiscite!

Dont get me started on Balochistan (annexed from the Khan of Kalat by Pakistan while it was rejected by the Khan) or FATA...Junagadh and Hyderabad are similar issues.
But Kashmir is a UN recognised dispute area while the top 4 are not.
So lets limit ourselves to Kashmir.


& areey yaar let's not get started on indian invasion of siachen or east pakistan!
Let me correct u..its not just an invasion ..
It s a sucessful reply given to Pakistan's unjustified provocation of sending international tourists for trekking to a disputed area.!!


so plebiciste deamnd is valid!
[/QUOTE]

Get back the territory gifted to China and stop cross border terrorism and then we ll think abt Plebiscite.:wave:
 
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First, let me enlighten you that any UNSC resolution passed through chapter VI are considered non binding and have no mandatory enforceability. Kashmir is one such resolution. No country or body on this earth can force India to enforce UNSC resolution on Kashmir. World realizes this and it is time that Pakistan also realize this.
Lolz... what an enlightening piece of info.

Well i know what these resolutions mean, ofcourse it wont leading into an united miltary effort against india if it is not binding, but as we have already seen the indian support for the israeli action recently we arent surprised that india is very willing to join the list of those who blatantly disgrace civility and uprightness.

BTW, if india is so jumpy in not biding by the resolution, it shouldnt have agreed to it at the first place. This we call, licking ones own spit.

Moreover, you are just some internet champion who is of a different opinion, your govt has already agreed to the implementation of the resolution but isnt doing it because of the issues like troops withdrawal etc, and not because of what you have mentioned.

Anyhow, no worries, it is your soldiers that are killed every day there and dramas like those that happened in Mumbai take place if this Kashmir issue lingers on.

Second, this intransigence on UN resolution/plebiscite is not going to take Pakistan anywhere.
That's what you like all of us to believe, but guess what, tt will take us atleast somewhere, which ofcourse is not digestible to an oppressor.
Remember, India is 8 times bigger than Pakistan and growing at a rate of almost 9% every year.
Ooooo... i am shivering!

We are ready to wait for another 200 years, are you ready?
^^ Well dont see us f;inching either.

And in case if you have forgotten of those soldiers who die in vain in Kashmir (that's the amount of respect that you have for them), allow me to remind you that it is india that is committing a 0.5 million army there, not us.

You seem weak at maths, boy.
 
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