The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[karan.1970]

in the end, indian wont allow Kashmiris to determine their fate. Why?
Because it is 99.9% guaranteed that Occupied Kashmiris want to seceed from hindoostan's forced grip.

The same reason why India did not allow Khalistan in the 80s. If there was a plebiscite in Punjab in 80s, in all probability, they would have wanted to seperate as well.. Try that now and you wont have even 1% going that way...

So the reason India will not do a plebiscite in Kashmir, is because Pakistan has been successful in stroking the fires of anti India sentiments in the valley so far. Like Khanistan, once this move of Pakistan in the valley is countered, the Plebiscite issue will become as reedundant.


PS: Anyone wanting to respond to this with bogus articles about Khalistan movt starting again, do that in the the Khalistan thread pls...

 

[hamza the lion]

i think not only kashmir we want all india becose india belone to all musliams peopels pakistan shoud atack india and controle over all contry

 

[third eye]

i think not only kashmir we want all india becose india belone to all musliams peopels pakistan shoud atack india and controle over all contry

Now now..

Its this something. For a start, it would do Pk good to control itself.

 

[desiman]

the possibility of attacks against indian army would decrease manifold if the area were de-militarized and the people were free to choose their fate.

this is what sets us both apart on this issue. You can't call Occupied Kashmir an "integral part of india" when majority of the people do not feel affiliation with india

and you are right, there are existing elements who want to join neither Pakistan nor hindustan. Quite frankly, if that were majority opinion -- I would have no problem with it at all.

This is about human dignity, honour, and justice. Whatever mistakes Pakistan may have made in the past are bygons. This issue will remain forever until it is solved; it is already known that Pakistan will never back down from her stance on this issue.


it's a promise.

So wont India my friend,

Its a promise also

 

[desiman]

i think not only kashmir we want all india becose india belone to all musliams peopels pakistan shoud atack india and controle over all contry

Your new here, so please avoid trolling straight away.

 

[desiman]

Challenge of the day for the hindustanys here:



find me ONE (1) picture of an Azad Kashmiri waving a hindostan flag


find me ONE (1) picture of an Azad Kashmiri burning the Pakistani flag


find me ONE (1) instance where Azad Kashmiris openly challenged Pakistan and demanded an end to Pakistani "occupation"


(since you indians claim they are 'occupied' by us)



I patiently wait for javab.

Sir there was a whole thread with videos and articles from "Azad Kashmir" but it was rapidly closed for you know why. Posting these videos is asking for a ban here and they are also quickly deemed as "Indian Propaganda". The thing is that logical debate is only possible here until and unless you don’t start showing someone the other side of the story. Posting articles and videos talking about anything negative from "Azad Kashmir “is quickly deemed as trolling so really there is no use. We all shall continue to lives in our own little boxes and this meaningless solution thread shall go on forever.

 

[PAFAce]

Abu Zolfiqar, the standard Indian, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the occupation in the Valley of Kashmir. They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for India or that there are poor people in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan (as ironic as it may be for an Indian to criticize widespread poverty in another country). It burns them on the inside that the people of Kashmir choose to call Pakistan's part of Kashmir "Azad" and theirs "occupied", and when you're burning on the inside, you will do whatever you can to return the favor. That's what you're seeing here, baseless, pointless yapping without so much as a passing thought given to the real issue of occupation. When they see pictures and videos of lrage crowds supporting Pakistan, and even larger crowds demanding cecession, they point to things like "look at what they're wearing" or "this is staged". When you show them examples of attrocities commited by their forces in Kashmir, they say "they are terrorists and deserve that". A dude on this forum recently claimed "We haven't killed any Kashmiris in a long time", and when I posted the articles about the deaths of 4 people in the recent protests, not including the 14-year-old and 17-yeas-old, he said "Well, that's what they deserve". When all else fails, they resort to, "Well, they don't want to be with Pakistan either, so they have to stay with us".

Seriously, is there any doubt as to why they want to separate from India? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the causes of Kashmir. They claim to be followers of a man like Gandhi, and yet they continue to hold an entire people and their territory occupied against his teachings. You can't teach empathy or neutrality, you can't even convince them to go and actually talk to people of Srinagar and surrounding areas. I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met a few people from Srinagar, and they told me first hand accounts of what was happening there. I hope against hope some of these people will do the same.

My friend, who is a member of the Board of Directors at our Student's Union, is from Srinagar. At a recent Students Union awards meeting, the Pakistan Student's Federation won an award, but there were no members present to receive it. So the announcer asked for any Pakistanis to come up and receive it, and my buddy went up to the stage and got it. This isn't the first time he's done something like that, despite being pro-Independence, he's always been extremely pro-Pakistan in all matters. When he speaks of Azadi he uses the word "when" and not "if", something I've noticed in all my Kashmiri friends in the past, and even recent Yasin Malik interviews. He says, clearly, that he will be more than satisfied with joining Pakistan, but there is no future of the Valley of Kashmir with India. Now I don't claim that he represents everyone in Kashmir, but really, the evidence out there is overwhelming and can only be ignored if someone is in a complete state of denial. I always say, you can't occupy a people forever, and we will save a lot of bloodshed if we could, somehow, convince the Indians of this.

We all shall continue to lives in our own little boxes and this meaningless solution thread shall go on forever.

I've learned a lot on this thred. Yes, as far as the objective of the thread goes, nobody sporting an Indian flag has ever shown any desire to stick to the topic. However, it is not true that it is meaningless. There are probably many people around the World that long onto this page every day, and read what we have to say. What they read speaks volumes as to the stands and intentions of the people of the two countries involved. They'll see denial and desperation on one side, and passionate support on another. That in itself is worth every minute I spend arguing unendingly on this thread.

 

[desiman]

Abu Zolfiqar, the standard Indian, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the occupation in the Valley of Kashmir. They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for India or that there are poor people in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan (as ironic as it may be for an Indian to criticize widespread poverty in another country). It burns them on the inside that the people of Kashmir choose to call that part of Kashmir "Azad". That's what you're seeing here. When they pictures and videos of lrage crowds supporting Pakistan, and even larger crowds demanding cecession, they point to hings like "look at what they're wearing". When you show them examples of attrocities commited by their forces in Kashmir, they say "they are terrorists". A dude on this forum recently said "we haven't killed any Kashmiris", and when I posted the articles about the deaths of 4 people in the recent protests, he said "well, that's what they deserve". Whe all else fails, they resort to, "Well, they don't want to be with Pakistan either, so they have to stay with us".

Seriously, is there any doubt as to why they want to separate from India? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the causes of Kashmir. They claim to be followers of a man like Gandhi, and yet they continue to hold an entire people and their territory occupied. You can't teach empathy or neutrality, you can't even convince them to go and actually talk to people of Srinagar and surrounding areas. I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met a few people from Srinagar, and they told me first hand accounts of what was happening there.

My friend, who is a Board of Director at our Student's Union, is from Srinagar. At a recent UTSU awards meeting, the Pakistan Student's Association won an award, but there were no members present to receive it. So the announcer asked for any Pakistanis to come up and receive it, and my buddy went up to the stage and got it. This isn't the first time he's done something like that, despite being pro-Independence. When speaks of Azadi he uses the word "when" and not "if", something I've noticed in all my Kashmiri friends in the past, and even recent Yasin Malik interviews. He says, clearly, that he will be more than satisfied with joining Pakistan, but there is no future of the Valley of Kashmir with India. I hope he, and all the others, get what they want.

PAFAce i have been reading through your comments for sometime now and i must say i am very disappointed. A man with your level of education and studying at one of Canada's best universities still has such a boxed view of things is nothing but sad. You arguments are very good on paper and the long essay's about all the negative things that India does is nothing but sad. Now let me give you the Indian point of view and point of view from a person who has many more Kashmiri friends than you do –
1) I am kind of sick of repeated post here about Indian domination in the valley or Indian this and that. As per the recent independent surveys not only is Indian Kashmir more free but the rate of growth more than double than that of “Azad Kashmir” . The GDP has now grown from a measly 11,860 crores in the 1980’s to over 540900 crores last year. The Indian government spends over $ 850 million each year on Kashmir’s improvement and economy. Kashmir has only a 4% incidence of poverty, which is one of the lowest in India itself.


Where on the other hand your so called “Azad Kashmir” still remain lower on the freedom scale and no where even near in the economic scale. Largely dependent on external aid, money had to be taken from International Aid agencies when the GOP failed to deliver even the basic needs after the 2006 earthquake. A fact that is verified by my friend who is a Afghani with family in “Azad Kashmir”. As per him nothing makes it down to the people and rich landlords continue to eat away from what little is given to the troubled state.


2) Education – boosting over 9 state universities, as well as a robust secondary education system, Indian Kashmiri’s have access to the whole of India when it comes to employment. From government jobs, to the armed forces, to the private sector, Kashmiri’s have can work in any sector without problem. The recent reduction in terrorism in the state has allowed many people to pursue post-secondary education and move out to the metropolitan cities of India. A huge community of Kashmiri’s in Delhi, Chandigarh and Mumbai is testament to that. Where on the other hand education in “Azad Kashmir” is nonexistent. With over a 38% illiteracy rate as well as limited post-secondary system, getting an education is nothing but an uphill battle for them.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-4-2005_pg7_37.

I can really go on and on about Kashmir but I don’t want to write a 10000 word essay. My request is to members to please stop posting stupid pics of misguided youth burning flags and protesting with no reason. The only reason the Indian army is there is to kill the million of terrorist that are either from across the border or are misguided Kashmiri youth. The valley has a significant Hindu population as well and calling them not-Kashmiris is no ones right. Kashmir belongs to everyone, Hindu, Muslim, sikh or Buddhist. Recently with the growth of amazing leaders such as Farukh Abdullah and Omar Abdullah, Kashmiris have found another role model for them, people who want the benefit of the Kashmiri people but also understand the pro-independence propaganda that influences many over there. The fact on the ground is that the issue is slowly dying down and Pakistan likes it or not Kashmir will always stay a part of India. Pakistan has much more to think about than Kashmir right now, you can leave the worrying part to us, we are quite good at solving problems lol So again im sure ill get a rebuttal from you Pakace but make it sensible and let me see some UofT brilliance in you. Quoting old stories and carefully manipulated pics is not something UofT graduates are known for, I really expect something better than that from you.

And just for your info his wife is a hindu

 

[toxic_pus]

Challenge of the day for the hindustanys here:



find me ONE (1) picture of an Azad Kashmiri waving a hindostan flag


find me ONE (1) picture of an Azad Kashmiri burning the Pakistani flag


find me ONE (1) instance where Azad Kashmiris openly challenged Pakistan and demanded an end to Pakistani "occupation"


(since you indians claim they are 'occupied' by us)



I patiently wait for javab.

Once again, the relevant parts of EU resolution of Kashmir:

2. Draws attention to the fact that India is the world's largest secular democracy and has devolved democratic structures at all levels, whereas Pakistan still lacks full implementation of democracy in AJK and has yet to take steps towards democracy in Gilgit and Baltistan…

18. Regrets, however, that Pakistan has consistently failed to fulfill its obligations to introduce meaningful and representative democratic structures in AJK; notes in particular the continuing absence of Kashmiri representation in the Pakistan National Assembly, the fact that AJK is governed through the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad, that Pakistan officials dominate the Kashmir Council and that the Chief Secretary, the Inspector-General of Police, the Accountant-General and the Finance Secretary are all from Pakistan; disapproves of the provision in the 1974 Interim Constitution which forbids any political activity that is not in accordance with the doctrine of Jammu and Kashmir as part of Pakistan and obliges any candidate for a parliamentary seat in AJK to sign a declaration of loyalty to that effect; is concerned that the Gilgit-Baltistan region enjoys no form of democratic representation whatsoever;

20. ...particularly concerned, therefore, that the people of Gilgit and Baltistan are under the direct rule of the military and enjoy no democracy;

22. Expresses concern regarding the lack of freedom of expression in AJK and reports of torture and mistreatment, of discrimination against refugees from Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir and of corruption amongst government officials, and calls on the Pakistani Government to ensure that the people of AJK can exercise their fundamental civil and political rights in an environment free from coercion and fear;

23. Further calls on Pakistan to ensure free and fair elections in AJK, considering that the general elections of 11 July 2006 were characterised by fraud and vote rigging on a massive scale, and that any candidate who refused to uphold the position of the accession of Kashmir to Pakistan was barred from running; also calls on Pakistan to hold elections for the first time in Gilgit and Baltistan;

Anybody in 'Azad' Kashmir or GB, harbouring the thought of independence, wouldn't be outside a prison for too long. Forget waving a 'hindostan flag' or burning Pakistani flag or challenging Pakistan.

PS: It is really pathetic how you want to pass off the party pennants as Pakistani flag.

 

[toxic_pus]

It burns them on the inside that the people of Kashmir choose to call Pakistan's part of Kashmir "Azad" and theirs "occupied"...

Just a clarification. It was GoP which started calling that narrow strip of Kashmir as 'Azad'. People of that area had no say in it. They still don't have any. Thanks to you.

That's what you're seeing here, baseless, pointless yapping without so much as a passing thought given to the real issue of occupation.

You calling it an 'occupation' will not make it an occupation.

You can't teach empathy or neutrality...

A Pakistani talking about 'empathy' has got to be the joke of several millennia to come. And come to think of it. Its been only 39 years since 1971. Apparently, we are supposed to be in denial.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Abu Zolfiqar, the standard Indian, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the occupation in the Valley of Kashmir. They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for India or that there are poor people in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan (as ironic as it may be for an Indian to criticize widespread poverty in another country)

that's the thing....I'd be lying if I were to say that Azad Kashmir/Northern Areas are most developed in terms of infrastructure; that the jobs/tech market is booming there etc. etc.

But this is about a sense of belonging, and identity. To the credit of indians, they have tried to invest in the occupied territories ---but still the vast majority of the people there are against indian rule.

the standard indian believes that they can buy out the Kashmiris. I don't think it will work, because I see the opposite happening.


.

It burns them on the inside that the people of Kashmir choose to call Pakistan's part of Kashmir "Azad" and theirs "occupied", and when you're burning on the inside, you will do whatever you can to return the favor. That's what you're seeing here, baseless, pointless yapping without so much as a passing thought given to the real issue of occupation. When they see pictures and videos of lrage crowds supporting Pakistan, and even larger crowds demanding cecession, they point to things like "look at what they're wearing" or "this is staged".

it seems the more jingoist indian element likes to propogate their false Kashmiri Maharaja Stories; trying to dupe people with this kind of lame stories which potrays Maharajas' as true warrior.We all know history very well and we know about these Maharajas' during British Rule over India.how they were acting during British rein. They rode on Elephants and Horses, they traveled on Motor-carts but in reality they could hardly stand on their own feet when facing Britishers. The British rulers used them as tools to rule over us in past times.

It really is simple. Look where most of the social unrest is. Pakistan Kashmir or iok. It really isnt hard to see.

When you show them examples of attrocities commited by their forces in Kashmir, they say "they are terrorists and deserve that". A dude on this forum recently claimed "We haven't killed any Kashmiris in a long time", and when I posted the articles about the deaths of 4 people in the recent protests, not including the 14-year-old and 17-yeas-old, he said "Well, that's what they deserve". When all else fails, they resort to, "Well, they don't want to be with Pakistan either, so they have to stay with us".

rule of the 'daanda' will prove futile. I have read rubbish about how the Muslims were imported there. The truth is, india wants to grasp onto Kashmir for the very reason that it is a Muslim majority state, among other things. So far, it's a very artificial setup; majority of the people in this disputed territory want freedom and its obvious.

Seriously, is there any doubt as to why they want to separate from India? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the causes of Kashmir.

It would be clever for the Indian planners to start thinking of a free Kashmir and how they will deal with such a nation, as they too have lost Pakistan not that many decades back. Had the indian Politicans been prepared and planned for a free Pakistan they would not have had so many problems as they face today - as far as relations are concerned. Then again, we must look at all india's other neighbours and see how they are "co-existing" with them

I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met a few people from Srinagar, and they told me first hand accounts of what was happening there. I hope against hope some of these people will do the same.

exact same situation for me. In fact, even amongst my own family we are mixed on the issue. We can all agree, however, that in the end --Kashmiris should decide their fate collectively. Hold a referendum.

My friend, who is a member of the Board of Directors at our Student's Union, is from Srinagar. At a recent Students Union awards meeting, the Pakistan Student's Federation won an award, but there were no members present to receive it. So the announcer asked for any Pakistanis to come up and receive it, and my buddy went up to the stage and got it. This isn't the first time he's done something like that, despite being pro-Independence, he's always been extremely pro-Pakistan in all matters.

this is a real heart-warmer.....Bless him for doing this deed

When he speaks of Azadi he uses the word "when" and not "if", something I've noticed in all my Kashmiri friends in the past, and even recent Yasin Malik interviews. He says, clearly, that he will be more than satisfied with joining Pakistan, but there is no future of the Valley of Kashmir with India.

Actually I have also been hearing about calls for total independence for both. I'm not a double-standard person, nor are many Pakistanis who are pragmatic about the issue. Hold a referendum, let them decide based on majority vote.

indian are very scared about this, simply because they know what the ground realities are and it is unbearable to them --especially after our blessed seperation and new homeland away from them.

They'll see denial and desperation on one side, and passionate support on another. That in itself is worth every minute I spend arguing unendingly on this thread.

we are here to talk; we are here to learn.


your input is highly valued on here

 

[karan.1970]

Abu Zolfiqar, the standard Indian, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the occupation in the Valley of Kashmir. They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for India or that there are poor people in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan (as ironic as it may be for an Indian to criticize widespread poverty in another country). It burns them on the inside that the people of Kashmir choose to call Pakistan's part of Kashmir "Azad" and theirs "occupied", and when you're burning on the inside, you will do whatever you can to return the favor. That's what you're seeing here, baseless, pointless yapping without so much as a passing thought given to the real issue of occupation. When they see pictures and videos of lrage crowds supporting Pakistan, and even larger crowds demanding cecession, they point to things like "look at what they're wearing" or "this is staged". When you show them examples of attrocities commited by their forces in Kashmir, they say "they are terrorists and deserve that". A dude on this forum recently claimed "We haven't killed any Kashmiris in a long time", and when I posted the articles about the deaths of 4 people in the recent protests, not including the 14-year-old and 17-yeas-old, he said "Well, that's what they deserve". When all else fails, they resort to, "Well, they don't want to be with Pakistan either, so they have to stay with us".

Seriously, is there any doubt as to why they want to separate from India? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the causes of Kashmir. They claim to be followers of a man like Gandhi, and yet they continue to hold an entire people and their territory occupied against his teachings. You can't teach empathy or neutrality, you can't even convince them to go and actually talk to people of Srinagar and surrounding areas. I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met a few people from Srinagar, and they told me first hand accounts of what was happening there. I hope against hope some of these people will do the same.

My friend, who is a member of the Board of Directors at our Student's Union, is from Srinagar. At a recent Students Union awards meeting, the Pakistan Student's Federation won an award, but there were no members present to receive it. So the announcer asked for any Pakistanis to come up and receive it, and my buddy went up to the stage and got it. This isn't the first time he's done something like that, despite being pro-Independence, he's always been extremely pro-Pakistan in all matters. When he speaks of Azadi he uses the word "when" and not "if", something I've noticed in all my Kashmiri friends in the past, and even recent Yasin Malik interviews. He says, clearly, that he will be more than satisfied with joining Pakistan, but there is no future of the Valley of Kashmir with India. Now I don't claim that he represents everyone in Kashmir, but really, the evidence out there is overwhelming and can only be ignored if someone is in a complete state of denial. I always say, you can't occupy a people forever, and we will save a lot of bloodshed if we could, somehow, convince the Indians of this.


I've learned a lot on this thred. Yes, as far as the objective of the thread goes, nobody sporting an Indian flag has ever shown any desire to stick to the topic. However, it is not true that it is meaningless. There are probably many people around the World that long onto this page every day, and read what we have to say. What they read speaks volumes as to the stands and intentions of the people of the two countries involved. They'll see denial and desperation on one side, and passionate support on another. That in itself is worth every minute I spend arguing unendingly on this thread.

Extremely emotional but seems to be bypassing supporting facts in the name of creative liberty. See how the same could be turned around on its head when sources and evidence is not required to be included...

PAFAce, the standard Pakistani, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the the dismal state of its country due to support for terror. They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for Pakistan in the Indian state of J&K or that there are terrorists all over in India(as ironic as it may be for a Pakistani to criticize widespread terrorism in another country). It burns them on the inside that the the state of J&K is today growing at a rate 2.5 times that of Pakistan and when you're burning on the inside, you will do whatever you can to return the favor. That's what you're seeing here, baseless, pointless yapping without so much as a passing thought given to the real issue of terrorism. When they see pictures and videos of militants running rampant in Pakistan, and videos of Balochistani people demanding freedom, they point to things like "this is staged". When you show them proofs of terror acts of their nationals, they hide behind the excuse of "evidence not credible for court of law" When all else fails, they resort to, "Well, India is also formenting terrorism in Balochistan and NWFP"

Seriously, is there any doubt that Pakistan is an International hub of terror? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the perils of promoting terror as a state policy. They claim to be followers of Islam (a peace loving religion) and yet they continue to hold the whole world at ransom thru their nuclear proliferation and support for terrorists. You can't teach empathy or neutrality. I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met some one who lost a friend in Mumbai carnage.

---see what i mean

 

[desiman]

Extremely emotional but seems to be bypassing supporting facts in the name of creative liberty. See how the same could be turned around on its head when sources and evidence is not required to be included...

PAFAce, the standard Pakistani, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the the dismal state of its country due to support for terror. They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for Pakistan in the Indian state of J&K or that there are terrorists all over in India(as ironic as it may be for a Pakistani to criticize widespread terrorism in another country). It burns them on the inside that the the state of J&K is today growing at a rate 2.5 times that of Pakistan and when you're burning on the inside, you will do whatever you can to return the favor. That's what you're seeing here, baseless, pointless yapping without so much as a passing thought given to the real issue of terrorism. When they see pictures and videos of militants running rampant in Pakistan, and videos of Balochistani people demanding freedom, they point to things like "this is staged". When you show them proofs of terror acts of their nationals, they hide behind the excuse of "evidence not credible for court of law" When all else fails, they resort to, "Well, India is also formenting terrorism in Balochistan and NWFP"

Seriously, is there any doubt that Pakistan is an International hub of terror? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the perils of promoting terror as a state policy. They claim to be followers of Islam (a peace loving religion) and yet they continue to hold the whole world at ransom thru their nuclear proliferation and support for terrorists. You can't teach empathy or neutrality. I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met some one who lost a friend in Mumbai carnage.

---see what i mean

Beautifully written, amazing thoughts.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

the standard Pakistani, as you put it, wants to hear nothing about the the dismal state of its country due to support for terror.

you are now implying that the standard Pakistani supports terrorism. Great convincing.

They would much rather talk about their fantasies of popular support for Pakistan in the Indian state of J&K .

We provide moral support to people who want freedom, belonging to a disputed territory. We want them to seek self-determination; it is evident that there is widespread disdain for indian occupation in ioK

or that there are terrorists all over in India(as ironic as it may be for a Pakistani to criticize widespread terrorism in another country)

even though the naxalite issue doesnt really affect Pakistan, it is an alarming development. How many naxal affected areas are there? (forget about the other armed outfits and religious extremist groups/politicians in your country)

We are more concerned about terrorism affecting us; that is why our Armed Forces and police are doing all in their power to fix the situation. Incidentally, there are external enemies who are supporting our enemies -- i.e. blatantly anti-Pakistan forces -trained to sabotage and disrupt peace, and wage war against Pakistan nation.

It burns them on the inside that the the state of J&K is today growing at a rate 2.5 times that of Pakistan

elaborate

and when you're burning on the inside, you will do whatever you can to return the favor.

???????

who is burning on the inside every time somebody drops the "K-bomb" (as your media calls it)

When they see pictures and videos of militants running rampant in Pakistan, and videos of Balochistani people demanding freedom, they point to things like "this is staged".

indian keep making the mistake of forgetting that Baluchestan is not disputed territory. Do you see Pakistanis calling for West Bengal to unite with Bangladesh?

Nevertheless, the Baluch have had some grievances with the federal government (not the state). Many of them are genuine concerns, and a lot is being done to solve the problems there. More could be done, and it requires political will of a battered administration.

We never say the "pictures and videos of militants running rampant" are staged. Why? Because we are living and dealing with their actions, and have lost many friends/family/comrades. We Pakistanis know they aren't staged. But we do recognize that a lot of dirty games are being imposed on Pakistan from outside; we are angry about it but we wont let it control our lives.

We will move on with our lives; hopefully this time, be more vigilant and remain united against our enemies. Elect the right leaders, etc.

When you show them proofs of terror acts of their nationals, they hide behind the excuse of "evidence not credible for court of law"

Yes we are aware that indians are never satisfied, nor do they respect the rulings of our sovereign courts. What can we (or, of course, YOU) do about it? Those are court rulings. Apply for visa to Pakistan and come view the proceedings yourself, if you so desire.

When all else fails, they resort to, "Well, India is also formenting terrorism in Balochistan and NWFP"

not when all else fails.....we've been saying it since the beginning

Seriously, is there any doubt that Pakistan is an International hub of terror? There is no convincing these people, even after 60 years they are blind and deaf to the perils of promoting terror as a state policy.

Pakistan does not promote "terror as a state policy"

try to look beyond the sensationalist headlines on your newspapers

They claim to be followers of Islam (a peace loving religion) and yet they continue to hold the whole world at ransom thru their nuclear proliferation and support for terrorists.

Nuclear proliferation is moot point. It isn't going on anymore. Pakistan is not supporting any terrorist groups.

You can't teach empathy or neutrality. I wasn't that passionate about the issue until I met some one who lost a friend in Mumbai carnage

Same way there are Pakistanis who are passionate on similar issues after they lost friends/loved ones in Samjhota express bombing

---see what i mean

do you want me to answer it honestly?

 

[desiman]

you are now implying that the standard Pakistani supports terrorism. Great convincing.



We provide moral support to people who want freedom, belonging to a disputed territory. We want them to seek self-determination; it is evident that there is widespread disdain for indian occupation in ioK



even though the naxalite issue doesnt really affect Pakistan, it is an alarming development. How many naxal affected areas are there? (forget about the other armed outfits and religious extremist groups/politicians in your country)

We are more concerned about terrorism affecting us; that is why our Armed Forces and police are doing all in their power to fix the situation. Incidentally, there are external enemies who are supporting our enemies -- i.e. blatantly anti-Pakistan forces -trained to sabotage and disrupt peace, and wage war against Pakistan nation.



elaborate



???????

who is burning on the inside every time somebody drops the "K-bomb" (as your media calls it)




indian keep making the mistake of forgetting that Baluchestan is not disputed territory. Do you see Pakistanis calling for West Bengal to unite with Bangladesh?

Nevertheless, the Baluch have had some grievances with the federal government (not the state). Many of them are genuine concerns, and a lot is being done to solve the problems there. More could be done, and it requires political will of a battered administration.

We never say the "pictures and videos of militants running rampant" are staged. Why? Because we are living and dealing with their actions, and have lost many friends/family/comrades. We Pakistanis know they aren't staged. But we do recognize that a lot of dirty games are being imposed on Pakistan from outside; we are angry about it but we wont let it control our lives.

We will move on with our lives; hopefully this time, be more vigilant and remain united against our enemies. Elect the right leaders, etc.



Yes we are aware that indians are never satisfied, nor do they respect the rulings of our sovereign courts. What can we (or, of course, YOU) do about it? Those are court rulings. Apply for visa to Pakistan and come view the proceedings yourself, if you so desire.



not when all else fails.....we've been saying it since the beginning




Pakistan does not promote "terror as a state policy"

try to look beyond the sensationalist headlines on your newspapers




Nuclear proliferation is moot point. It isn't going on anymore. Pakistan is not supporting any terrorist groups.




Same way there are Pakistanis who are passionate on similar issues after they lost friends/loved ones in Samjhota express bombing




do you want me to answer it honestly?

ok mr. Zolfiqar you seem like a smart man so lets discuss this properly –
1. Yes I support you there, the standard/Middle class Pakistani does not support terrorism. I have been to Pakistan myself so I know. But if you tell me that the government of Pakistan or the army or the ISI or whoever is in charge of Pakistan does not support “Terror as a state policy”, then you are wrong. I don’t know how can even say that, as this is a fact that is verified by many past presidents and prime ministers of Pakistan. Most recently being Mr.Zardari - Zardari admits terrorism nurtured by govt for tactical use - Pakistan - World - The Times of India

Sponsoring the so called “Freedom Fighters”, who indulge in terrorism related activities is also called using terror as a state policy. The GOP has provided much more than just “Moral “support to anti-social organizations in Kashmir. This is a fact that you must accept as to be frank it is the truth.

2. I can see that you have lots of info about Naxals and extremist organizations in India. Im sure you would also have the same kind of knowledge about similar organizations in Pakistan. Bhaijan its time you worry about Pakistan and I worry about India. Its when we both switch roles is when problems are created. India the most diverse country on this planet by far and there are bound to be issues between different school of thoughts. But even after your so called “Freedom movements” India has managed to not only hold itself to together but also grow at a amazing pace. Where on the other hand Pakistan who started at the same time as us, has way less problems, only one religion, 10 maybe 20 different language and cultures is suffering quite a lot. Really either my perception is wrong or your state policy is. One of us has to change his ways bhaijan.


3. Now lets come to the big Baluchistan issue, as we can see its become routine for Pakistani members to put all the blame for everything that is wrong with Pakistan on India. Do you really think every problem in Pakistan is because of us ? The fact is that the Taliban was created by people such as Hamid Gul and the isi to fight the Russians during the Soviet-Afghan war. Now after many year that same tiger is coming bite you, it becomes quite easy to blame the other guy. Its people like Hamid Gul who you should blame as they are the cause of all the troubles. Such disturbed individuals have washed away they honesty by putting the blame on India so that no one comes after them. People like him still advocate the victory of the Taliban which is a very scary prospect for Pakistan. Its time to introspect rather than blame India. I don’t want to stress more on the Baluch issue as that is Pakistan’s internal matter and I don’t claim to be an “Expert”, on it.


Look my friend, I am not against Pakistan and specially not against Pakistani’s, but I am against the thinking that does not allow both countries to grow. Terrorism in the name of a freedom movement will not benefit anyone and will only drive both countries closer to pushing the nuclear button. Pakistan has not achieved anything from the Kashmir issues and all of its strategic goals are still where they were 60 years ago. A country with the potential of Pakistan could have been on a different level but because of the continuous stress on Kashmir has stopped all growth. What do you think, will India just get up one day and give up Kashmir. Common Bhaijan we both know that is never going to happen and as India grows stronger it becomes even less likely. There are many kids here who claim to be “Very Passionate”, about the Kashmir issue without even knowing what it is all about. By reading articles or looking at cleverly taken pics or readings blogs, one cannot get the actual story. My father was in the MOD and my mother was in the civilian section of the Navy, I have seen war and Kashmir more closely than most people here. All I can say is that the only thing they want is for everyone to leave them alone and let them live in peace. Its time for Pakistan to stop focusing its resources on Kashmir as its seriously hampering its growth. For a country the size of India putting a few thousand soldiers and diverting resources towards Kashmir isn’t a tough thing. India and Indian have been the victims of terror way longer than anyone else in the world. What many Indian have sacrificed or lost is incomparable to anything else. Living in the constant fear of death while visiting a theatre or shopping at a market is not pleasant to live with bhaijan. Rather than behaving like kinds and comparing each other passion we must realize whats better for our future generations. Anyways I can go on and on but I hope you get my point and I can change you point of view even in the slightest way.