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The Fighter Gap

Pentagon wouldn't share your opinion since everybody there has become more jittery about rapid expansion and modernisation of Chinese forces.

There's a reason why defence analysts in Washington and Langley have been compalining about lack of transparancy in chinese expansion.

The stunt chinese navy pulled out earlier this month by chasing an aircraft carrier undetected should put off some alarms.

We're dealing with a super power here. :ChinaFlag:
I'm not trying to be confrontational here but a tenth of the USN could knock out the PLAN. Pulling of a stunt like following a US carrier fleet doesn't justify superpower status.
I'd like to know more about that incident though. How do we know that the sub was undetected? Would it have been able to extend its kill envelope over the carrier and have remained undetected? Could it have survived a hit and run attempt(I'm not saying it would have attempted that)?
 
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60 J-10 with SD-10 missle+ F-16C/D with AMRAAM Aim-120C5 r seriously gonnaa tilt the balance....With AMRAAM C5 our f-16 will have the first shot definatley as the R-77 AE(used in Flanker) has lower range then C5....Plus the induction of 160 Jf-17 with SD-10...is enough to atleast defend our skies from IAF. Abt IAF getting F-16 or F-18 .....Russians r putting pressure on IAF by not giving spare parts to India if they go ahead....PLus IAF's 45% inventory consist of age old Mig-21's.....u should read the IAF..CnC S.P.Tyagi's letter to DRDO.....IAf is probbaly gonna buy MIg-29M as the replcaement for 126 MRCA.....Thus the Imblance btw IAF and PAF is not gonna be something out of this world.......Right now i belive that PAF is like a sitting duck butr in around 5 years things r bound to change for the better...I only wish that Pakistani Fc-10 would be able to use AMRAAM Aim-120C5 as we r getting 500 of them which will be more then enough for 36 new F-16's....so i hope we can use them on Fc-10 in future
The Russians will withhold supplies for which aircraft? The Mig23/27 are being phased out.
The Mig 35 not the MiG29M is on offer. The MiG 35 will come with a ToT which means the Mig 29s will not require Russian support. Russians anyways will not withhold supplies unless they want over $3 billion worth imports to be jeopardized.
India will probably go for a mix of MiG35s and F-18E/Fs(the E/A-18 Growler is also an option). The MiG 35 will keep the Russians happy. The nuclear deal has been approved so the F-18 acquisition is almost certain. Getting say 60 F-18s will also nullify the effect F-16s will have on the current balance. The F18s have been offered with AESA and by the time the orders are placed Aim120C-7s could also be available.

PLus IAF's 45% inventory consist of age old Mig-21's.....u should read the IAF..
PAF's inventory also is mainly F-7PGs and A-5 Fantans both of which belong to the same class as the MiG 21. The Bison though has the advantage of being BVR capable.
 
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The Russians will withhold supplies for which aircraft? The Mig23/27 are being phased out.
The Mig 35 not the MiG29M is on offer. The MiG 35 will come with a ToT which means the Mig 29s will not require Russian support. Russians anyways will not withhold supplies unless they want over $3 billion worth imports to be jeopardized.
India will probably go for a mix of MiG35s and F-18E/Fs(the E/A-18 Growler is also an option). The MiG 35 will keep the Russians happy. The nuclear deal has been approved so the F-18 acquisition is almost certain. Getting say 60 F-18s will also nullify the effect F-16s will have on the current balance. The F18s have been offered with AESA and by the time the orders are placed Aim120C-7s could also be available.


PAF's inventory also is mainly F-7PGs and A-5 Fantans both of which belong to the same class as the MiG 21. The Bison though has the advantage of being BVR capable.

India had all sorts of TOT and assistance yet is still in need to get things impotred. We know how long it takes to get jet trainers like Hawk so we are looking forward to see next idea of getting other stuff. We have seen delays , corrupt politicians and last but not least unhappy forces. So we will see when F18e/f or block70 Falcon will land in India... Whether that will impact Pakistan replacing in a few years all F7, Mirages and A5's? I doubt that. Jf17 will be inhouse. Diversity will decrease. Dependance will decrease. All planes will get BVR and interlinks. At the same time we will hear about failed Indian MRCA or LCA... We will hear about delays...

A5, F7pg are not in the same class as the 40+years old Mig21 bisons. They are newer and the advantage the Bison has is limited through the point defence idea... I doubt that those planes will ever meet eachother... By the time Mig21 Bison is up with two BVR the range will be minimal... Good luck defending yourself. And that with 45% bisons in your total inventory...

Get eralistic. LCA failed. Mig21 is outdated. Other planes are older generations. And we still need to see when MKI is full yoperational and in decent numbers. We hope to see mig29 versions... We hope to see american planes... But still very unsure.

At the same time: surely 150 JF17 with SD10. Surely 90+ Block52 with AMRAAM c5. Surely 36 J10's... All BVR, all Interlinks, and all signed deals.

I see a lack of knowledge.
 
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India had all sorts of TOT and assistance yet is still in need to get things impotred. We know how long it takes to get jet trainers like Hawk so we are looking forward to see next idea of getting other stuff. We have seen delays , corrupt politicians and last but not least unhappy forces. So we will see when F18e/f or block70 Falcon will land in India...
The MRCA deal has been fast-tracked and the IAF will make sure that its conventional advantage isn't lost. When required to these things can be done without delay. Take for example the order for 310 T-90s. Pakistan ordered 310 T-80s and that boomerang into an immediate Indian order. The F-16 order for Pakistan is having a similar impact on India.
Whether that will impact Pakistan replacing in a few years all F7, Mirages and A5's? I doubt that. Jf17 will be inhouse. Diversity will decrease. Dependance will decrease. All planes will get BVR and interlinks. At the same time we will hear about failed Indian MRCA or LCA... We will hear about delays...
I haven't heard about any timeframe for the replacement of the F-7. Enlighten me please.
Failed MRCA? When was it even being built? I believe it was delayed to see the outcome of the nuclear deal. No nuclear deal meant no F-18 so the wait was justified. Now that the deal is through the IAF will remove all chocks to the MRCA.
In what respect is the LCA failed? US sanctions had crippled its development. The production variants are out. Prototypes have flown hundreds of hours. It will be offered to the IAF by 2009 end or 2010.

A5, F7pg are not in the same class as the 40+years old Mig21 bisons. They are newer and the advantage the Bison has is limited through the point defence idea... I doubt that those planes will ever meet eachother... By the time Mig21 Bison is up with two BVR the range will be minimal... Good luck defending yourself. And that with 45% bisons in your total inventory...
What makes you think the Bison is old. Older MiG21s have been phased out. The newer ones were upgraded with French and Israeli sub-systems and made into entirely new fighters. The Bison is a multi-role fighter, the original MiG21s were point defence fighters. I didn't understand this line - By the time Mig21 Bison is up with two BVR the range will be minimal.
The Bisons are due to be gradually phased out by 2015. They are already in the process of being phased out.
Other planes are older generations. And we still need to see when MKI is full yoperational and in decent numbers. We hope to see mig29 versions... We hope to see american planes... But still very unsure.
Other planes will be phased out by 2012. MiG29s are in service.
The MKIs are in full strength in three squadrons i.e. atleast 40 fighters. And it is fully operational. Production has been speeded up and at the present rate 150MKIs should be in service by 2015. There is no unsurity about the MKIs whatsoever.

At the same time: surely 150 JF17 with SD10. Surely 90+ Block52 with AMRAAM c5. Surely 36 J10's... All BVR, all Interlinks, and all signed deals.

I see a lack of knowledge.
A signed deal for 90+ F-16C/Ds? I'd like a link on that. When I last checked an order for 72 fighters had been downgraded to 55 or something because of non-availability of funds due to the earthquake.
 
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>>>The MRCA deal has been fast-tracked and the IAF will make sure that its conventional advantage isn't lost. When required to these things can be done without delay. Take for example the order for 310 T-90s. Pakistan ordered 310 T-80s and that boomerang into an immediate Indian order. The F-16 order for Pakistan is having a similar impact on India.

So India follws a smaller neighbour and not China? Quite intresting. Let us put it in a different perspective. India failed producing decent Arjun and run towards Russia. Pakistan upgraded older towards Zarrar, (co!)developed Khaled and bought some extra for diversification. But I agree... India follows Pakistan. Pakistan produced Babur and India runs for gettnig the same.

>>>I haven't heard about any timeframe for the replacement of the F-7. Enlighten me please.

I have a feelnig that first F7p will be replaced... Probably 15-25 planes a year by internal production. MAybe some extra from China. The A5 will be next and then surely the PG. So the non bvr platforms will go.

>>>Failed MRCA? When was it even being built? I believe it was delayed to see the outcome of the nuclear deal. No nuclear deal meant no F-18 so the wait was justified. Now that the deal is through the IAF will remove all chocks to the MRCA.

Thanks. So antoher unclear situation.

>>>In what respect is the LCA failed? US sanctions had crippled its development. The production variants are out. Prototypes have flown hundreds of hours. It will be offered to the IAF by 2009 end or 2010.

See some other posts I made in the Cope India topic.. Yuo will get the idea. LCA not failed seems to be a better reaction.


>>>What makes you think the Bison is old. Older MiG21s have been phased out. The newer ones were upgraded with French and Israeli sub-systems and made into entirely new fighters. The Bison is a multi-role fighter, the original MiG21s were point defence fighters. I didn't understand this line - By the time Mig21 Bison is up with two BVR the range will be minimal.
The Bisons are due to be gradually phased out by 2015. They are already in the process of being phased out.

It is way older then those PG airframes... Let us think when the latest aircraft was delivered... Ooops. Indeed same era as the Mirages in Pakistan. Why else are they dropping out of the sky? A multirole Mig21Bison? You probably made some extra pylons... The plane sucks in air to ground. The range is limited. The asme erason mig29 wasn't much impressing so.... By the way... Bison was deived from the F version which was probably less radaricuous but better to handle and more agile... Yep... F7 is derived from the F version and not Buis version...

>>>A signed deal for 90+ F-16C/Ds? I'd like a link on that. When I last checked an order for 72 fighters had been downgraded to 55 or something because of non-availability of funds due to the earthquake.

Oooo my God... What is your age?
 
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So India follws a smaller neighbour and not China? Quite intresting. Let us put it in a different perspective. India failed producing decent Arjun and run towards Russia. Pakistan upgraded older towards Zarrar, (co!)developed Khaled and bought some extra for diversification. But I agree... India follows Pakistan. Pakistan produced Babur and India runs for gettnig the same.
Whatever. I don't have the patience to enter open-ended arguments. Arjun is already in service.
I have a feelnig that first F7p will be replaced... Probably 15-25 planes a year by internal production. MAybe some extra from China. The A5 will be next and then surely the PG. So the non bvr platforms will go.
You have a feeling. I was actually looking for a link and all you provide is a feeling. What am I to think?
Thanks. So antoher unclear situation.
Again salient point is the F-18s are probably going to be ordered. Boeing has stated recently that it expects the RFPs to be issued by the end of this month.

See some other posts I made in the Cope India topic.. Yuo will get the idea. LCA not failed seems to be a better reaction.
LCA not failed seems to be better reaction? Please be less vague.


It is way older then those PG airframes... Let us think when the latest aircraft was delivered... Ooops. Indeed same era as the Mirages in Pakistan. Why else are they dropping out of the sky? A multirole Mig21Bison? You probably made some extra pylons... The plane sucks in air to ground. The range is limited. The asme erason mig29 wasn't much impressing so.... By the way... Bison was deived from the F version which was probably less radaricuous but better to handle and more agile... Yep... F7 is derived from the F version and not Buis version...
Which ones are older than the PG airframes? Are you trying to say that the MiG21s were all ordered at the same time?
asme erason mig29 wasn't much impressing so What did that mean?

Oooo my God... What is your age?
No link huh? :lol:
 
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60 J-10 with SD-10 missle+ F-16C/D with AMRAAM Aim-120C5 r seriously gonnaa tilt the balance....

we have 140 MKIs to counter it at present

With AMRAAM C5 our f-16 will have the first shot definatley as the R-77 AE(used in Flanker) has lower range then C5....Plus the induction of 160 Jf-17 with SD-10...is enough to atleast defend our skies from IAF.

we have 260 (60 Mirages+80 Mig 29+120 jaguars) planes to take on currently in our inverntory.+anoither 40 mirages from france so that makes it 300.

Abt IAF getting F-16 or F-18 .....Russians r putting pressure on IAF by not giving spare parts to India if they go ahead....

India has TOT except for those Mig 29s..

PLus IAF's 45% inventory consist of age old Mig-21's.....

And pakis have 90% old migs/variants.

u should read the IAF..CnC S.P.Tyagi's letter to DRDO.....IAf is probbaly gonna buy MIg-29M as the replcaement for 126 MRCA.....Thus the Imblance btw IAF and PAF is not gonna be something out of this world.......

Not Mig29M,but mirages, and its not 126 it s been reported to have gone upto 200.
 
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A5, F7pg are not in the same class as the 40+years old Mig21 bisons. .

Hows a BVR capable plane lesser class than a NOn BVR plane.A Mig 21 can detect and shoot down a F-7 even before a F-7 can get within firing range.


Get eralistic. LCA failed. Mig21 is outdated. Other planes are older generations..

Are u speaking abt the Mirages and the jaguars and the Mig 29s as outdated.:disagree:

And we still need to see when MKI is full yoperational and in decent numbers..

Whats a decent number? And who told you its not fully operational?

At the same time: surely 150 JF17 with SD10. Surely 90+ Block52 with AMRAAM c5. Surely 36 J10's... All BVR, all Interlinks, and all signed deals..

surely surely...carry on im listening.

I see a lack of knowledge.

yes yes i also see
 
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Pakistan produced Babur and India runs for gettnig the same.

Please check and see who produced what first.

I have a feelnig that first F7p will be replaced... Probably 15-25 planes a year by internal production. MAybe some extra from China. The A5 will be next and then surely the PG. So the non bvr platforms will go.

Your feeling dont count.Show me the money and the report.

ooo my God... What is your age?

:coffee:
 
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I have a feelnig that first F7p will be replaced... Probably 15-25 planes a year by internal production. MAybe some extra from China. The A5 will be next and then surely the PG. So the non bvr platforms will go.

India may have loads of MiG 21 Bisons in its inventory, but Pakistan has an equal percentage of even more old planes which its still keeping with very very vague statements about phasing them out.eg mirages, its talking bout upgrading them, like what we did to bisons and are phasing them out also.

And neither has ne1 posted exactly the deals that have been signed for the JF-17, J-10 is still a far cry. Could some1 please provide a concrete link that says Pakistan has signed an order for so and so number of JF-17's.

Also the total nu,ber of F-16's that Pakistan is gonna have in the future is roughly bout 70.

Why is it that every1 in Pakistan says 'omg most IAF planes are oold, we can beat them, they dont c that htey have even more older planes with them'

the MRCA in all likeliness was waiting for the nuke deal to go thru to make it go fast. Now its gone, so there is a certain amount of certainty that the 200 planes are gonna be split with MiG 35 MKI'zed most prolly and F/A-18E/F.

Had the nuke deal not gone thru, the chances would have been more of Rafale instead of F-18. Although i support Rafale than F-18. so bad thing for me.
 
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I have no doubt Americans will supply the indians.but i seriously doubt Russians will continue.

As a pakistani iam happy Americans are supplying the indians.this will make sure we go towards more of our own.and in the long run thats better.

as far as competition is concerned indians deal with china this way :rofl:

The United States has some concerns about a rising China, including a military expansion that may be excessive, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday.
Beijing has spent heavily in recent years on adding submarines, missiles, fighter planes and other high-tech weapons to its arsenal and extending the reach of the 2.3 million-member People's Liberation Army:army: , the world's largest fighting force.



Its reported military budget rose more than 14 percent this year to $35.3 billion, but outside estimates of China's true spending are up to three times that level.

"There are concerns about China's military buildup," Rice told a television interviewer. "It's sometimes seemed outsized for China's regional role."

Beijing insists its multibillion-dollar buildup is defensive, but it has alarmed some Asian neighbors :pff: and U.S. military planners who see China as a potential threat to U.S. military pre-eminence in the Pacific.

Asked whether U.S. foreign policy toward China is aimed at containing China's ability to flex military power, Rice turned the question to politics and economics.

"U.S. policy is aimed at having China be a responsible stakeholder in international politics," she replied. "That means that Chinese energy, Chinese growth, Chinese incredible innovation and entrepreneurship, would be channeled into an international economy in which everybody can compete and compete equally."

Rice, in Asia with President Bush for a regional economic forum, said China's economic growth "has been a net gain for the international system." But she also ticked off a list of U.S. concerns including questions of economic fairness and China's record on human rights.

"There are concerns about a rising China, concerns about China's transition, concerns about whether the Chinese economy will in fact act in a way that is consistent with the level playing field that the international economy needs," Rice said in the interview with CNBC Asia.

U.S. concerns are manageable within a relationship she described as strong overall, Rice said. She visited China last month to shore up United Nations sanctions against China's ally, North Korea, and she credited Beijing with cooperation in opposing the North's nuclear development.

Bush and Rice were both meeting with their Chinese counterparts during this weekend's Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit.

A congressional advisory panel on Thursday questioned China's willingness to be a more responsible international player, saying world prosperity depends on China's abandoning a single-minded pursuit of its "own narrow national interests."

The U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission made 44 recommendations in its annual report to lawmakers. It calls on the United States to combat Chinese attempts to isolate Taiwan by supporting the island's membership in various world bodies, and urges Washington to pressure Beijing to help end the bloody conflict in Sudan's Darfur region.

"While China is a global actor, its sense of responsibility has not kept up with its expanding power," said Larry Wortzel, chairman of the commission, which Congress created in 2000 to investigate U.S.-China issues.

The panel also admonished U.S. intelligence agencies, urging the United States to set up "a more effective program" for gathering information about China's military buildup and development.

In Beijing, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said she had not seen the report, but "we are against the attempt by any country or any organization to interfere with China's internal affairs under the pretext of the Taiwan question and impede our reunification course."

The report said China's global reach extends beyond East Asia to the Middle East, Africa, South Asia and Latin America, where China "is coming to be regarded almost as a second superpower."
 
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Blaiming China is dubious. US is largest weapon exporter and largest war exporter. Compared to US china is just a nice boy... It is helping Asian and African nations with respect. It is not destroying their economies like Euroepe and US did... It is not exporting their "democracy"... So dr Rice should eat more rice.
 
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Brilliantly put Munir brother! US exports war and manipulates other nations for its dominance. They are extremely cunning and manipulative.
 
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I have no doubt Americans will supply the indians.but i seriously doubt Russians will continue.
Defence cooperation with Russia will continue for the atleast the next fifteen years. There are several projects in the pipeline. The Surya ICBM, further versions of Brahmos, PAK-FA, etc. Russian collaboration exists in most defence projects like the IGMDP, Arjun, ATV, ADS, LCA, MCA, etc. Russian aircraft Su-30MKI, MiG35, and subs AkulaII are to be acquired or inducted. Cooperation with the US is hardly anything if you compare it with the Russia.
Russia and India are going to stay close for the near future atleast.
 
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Ok I need to get a few things cleared here. Give me some links that state that there is co-operation b/w India and russia in the Surya ICBM project!!! That is illegal.One of the reasons why bhramos's range is 300km.
There is co-op in the ATV project.Akulas are going to be acquired.Agree abt Su-30MKI,mig-35etc.
But who said anything abt co-op in LCA,MCA with russia?? Arjun tank is tooo diff from russian tanks.We were co-operating with israel in that.

But u r right.Indo-russian co-operation will continue for a long time.
 
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