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The fate of the PNS Ghazi

This is the only PAF F-16 Kill Against indian aircraft.
This is very old news happened in 2002 but i don't think any body posted it.

F-16 shot down an Indian Searcher-II UAV with AIM-9L at an altitude of 13000 ft on the night of june 07 2002 in punjab provice of pakistan
This was also confirmed by Indian Defence Ministry.

IAF's Searcher-II Loss on June 07, 2002 - Vayu Sena

It is not known how the aircraft flew,in what pattern,how long etc.
India does not want to reveal any details about it.

The PAF Aircheif said that the Aircraft was detected mobile observation posts rather than a radar.Thats surprising!!!

Searcher-II has a range of 250km and 14hrs of endurance.
India buyed large number and variety of Israeli UAVs.
 
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Thanks for the reports Imran.

But lets move away from Kargil.

The fate of the PNS Ghazi, and awaiting the rebuttal of Talwar to points raised against the claim of it being sunk by the IN.
 
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I think those were shot down by PA manpads and not the PAF....

I am aware of that. The discussion is not about whether PAF or PA shot them down. In any case, lets revert back to the topic on hand. Kargil simply takes the entire thread down a never ending hole.
 
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The following signals were recovered from the Ghazi:

* FROM COMSUBS TO SUBRON-5 INFO PAK NAVY DTG 221720 NOV 71
FOLLOWING AREAS OCCUPIED:
1.PAPA ONE,TO,THREE,FOUR.
2.PAPA FIVE,SIX,SEVEN,EIGHT.
3.BRAVO ONE,TWO,THREE,FOUR,FIVE,SIX.
4.MIKE
* FROM COMSUBS TO GHAZI MANGRO INFO PAK NAVY DTG 222117 NOV 71
ARM ALL TORPEDOES.
* FROM COMSUBS TO SUBRON-5 INFO PAK NAVY DTG 231905 NOV 71
ASSUME PRECAUTIONARY STAGE
* FROM COMSUBS TO GHAZI INFO PAK NAVY DTG 252307/NOV 71
OCCUPY ZONE VICOTR WITH ALL DISPATCH
INTELLIGENCE INDICATES CARRIER IN PORT.
 
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PNSGhazi PNS was abuilt as the USS Diablo (SS/AGSS-479), a Tench-class submarine and was the only ship of the United States Navy to be named for the diablo, a member of the batfish family, common in the West Indies and along the southern coast of the United states. Her keel was laid down by the Portsmouth Navy Yard. She was launched on 1 December 1944 sponsored by Mrs. V. D. Chapline, and commissioned on 31 March 1945 with Lieutenant Commander G. G. Matherson in command. In 1963, Diablo was transferred to the Pakistan on a four-year lease under the terms of the Security Assistance Program. After an extensive overhaul and conversion to Fleet Snorkel configuration in the United States, she was commissioned into the Pakistani Navy as PNS Ghazi on 1 June 1964. She reported for duty in Karachi in September of that year. Ghazi served during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 until she was lost in the 1971 war with all hands on 4 December 1971 just inside the outer channel buoy at Vishakapatnam. India states that the destroyer INS Rajput destroyed her but Pakistan states that she was destroyed by one of the naval mines she was lying in the harbor.

nationality: american
type of wreck: submarine
propulsion: motor vessel
weight (tons): 2414
dimensions (m): 94,79x8,23x4,57
cause lost: depth charge
date lost: 04/12/1971 [dd/mm/yyyy]
date built: 1944
builder: Portsmouth Naval Shipyard
owner: Pakistan Navy
depth (m): 32 max. / -- min.
 
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There was a deliberate decision made to not involve the PAF in order to prevent an escalation of the conflict.

The "2000 sorties" did not do much good any way.

But back to the topic,

You still haven't posted any rebuttals to he arguments raised in the article posted.

If you continue this then I am going to assume then that you are merely trolling.

The other article posted is inconclusive, if you read the last paragraph.
Well, any military would do its best to hide its defeats from its people.
 
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The other article posted is inconclusive, if you read the last paragraph.
Well, any military would do its best to hide its defeats from its people.

You have simply fallen back upon trolling now rather than provide any new proof.

If you cannot do so I will close this thread.

And any claims on your part tha the military is trying to hide its defeats could be thrown right back at you. A classic case of "The kettle calling the pot black".

Just because you want it to be true (A patriot is someone who thinks his country is always best because he lives in it) doesn't make it true.
 
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The Ghazi, formerly USS Diablo SS-479, was a long-range submarine leased to Pakistan in 1963. The lease was renewed in 1967. The sub was the flagship of Pakistan's Navy until it sank in 1971. Able to carry up to 28 torpedoes and fitted for minelaying capability, she was still considered a potent threat. During the 1965 Indo-Pakistani war, the Ghazi had won 10 awards including two decorations of Sitara-i-Jurat and the President's citations.

A floating, American-made lifejacket hinted to the Indian Navy that the Ghazi had been sunk with all hands on 4 December 1971. The position was marked, and divers returned with the sub PNS Ghazi's logbook.

India's Navy claims the submarine was sunk by two depth charges from the destroyer INS Rajput after it sighted Ghazi diving diving from periscope depth. Pakistan, however, maintains that Ghazi sank in a mine-laying accident.

The United States and the Soviets offered to raise the submarine at their expense, but India's Government rejected both offers. The Ghazi's log book, and official Pakistani tapes were later displayed in India's Eastern Naval Command.[1]

Submarines are always silent and strange.

now please inform me why india rejected to raise the ghazi?
 
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Talwar,

You must not be reading, because the entire article debunks essentially, or at the very least reduces the likelihood of, the cockamamie story you posted being true.

but divers who studied the wreckage say the submarine must have suffered an internal explosion which blew up its mines and torpedoes. Another theory suggests an explosion of gases built up inside the submarine while its batteries were being charged. This too has been disputed since the bodies recovered were not charred.

So people who have actually been up close to the wreckage indicate that an internal explosion was the likely cause. I assume this would not be terribly difficult given that the kinetics of an explosion occurring outside the hull vs inside it.

Your comments on this?

In the past three decades, the Indian Navy has made a series of attempts to unravel the puzzle but failed. The latest expedition was another bid to solve the enigma. "We would like to know what exactly happened to the Ghazi," says Vice-admiral (retd) Vinod Pasricha who converted the submarine Kursura and the Vikrant into maritime museums. "It would be of great historical value in the long term and would solve one of the last great mysteries of the 1971 war."

Even Indian admirals admit that they do not know what happened, and it is surprising that Inder Singh set off depth Charges thinking of a submarine, yet it took some fishermen to discover it, and it appears from the description of the reports from the initial part of the article that the IN had no clue as to what was going on.
 
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Exactly what sank the sub is still a mystery. Many competing theories have been advanced, both by the Indians and the Pakistanis. It could have been the two depth charges, or maybe a torpedo that the sub was carrying exploded from the charges. There is another idea that the Ghazi's bow hit the seabed while it was trying to escape the Rajput's depth charges causing its own mines to blow but there again it comes up against the fact that the Rajput had no depth charges. Regardless of the actual cause, the sub was still dead. The next morning, an Indian diving team was rushed to the area to check out the spot. The divers found the submarine wreck at a depth of about 150 feet of water. Over the next few days, divers recovered debris marked with US Navy numbers, and on the third day, they managed to open a hatch and recover one body.
 
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The United States and the Soviets offered to raise the submarine at their expense, but India's Government rejected both offers. The Ghazi's log book, and official Pakistani tapes were later displayed in India's Eastern Naval Command.[1]

What was the reason for not raising the sub?

Would Pakistan have claim to all objects salvaged?

Did India not want to annoy its ally the USSR by allowing the US to salvage the sub, but at the same item not want to annoy the US by allowing its cold war nemesis access to US technology?
 
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NEW DELHI: The sinking of Pakistani submarine Ghazi in the 1971 Indo-Pak war may have been one of the high points of India's first-ever emphatic military victory but there are no records available with naval authorities on how the much-celebrated feat was pulled off.

As a debate rages over a TOI report on the destruction of all records of the 1971 Bangladesh war at the Eastern Army Command headquarters in Kolkata, it transpires that naval authorities also destroyed records of the sinking of Ghazi.

The troubling finding has been thrown up by a trail of communications among the naval brass. Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi, regarded as a major threat to India's plans to use its naval superiority, sank around midnight of December 3, 1971 off Visakhapatnam, killing all 92 on board in the initial days of the war between India and Pakistan. Indian Navy claims the submarine was destroyed by depth charges fired by its ship INS Rajput. Pakistani authorities say the submarine sank because of either an internal explosion or accidental blast of mines that the submarine itself was laying around Vizag harbour.

According to a set of naval communications made available to TOI by sources familiar with the Ghazi sinking, senior officers and those writing the official history of Navy exchanged a host of letters admitting to the fact that crucial documents of Ghazi were missing.

Immediately after Ghazi sank, Indian naval sailors had recovered several crucial documents and other items from the submarine, wreckage of which is still lying underwater off Vizag.

On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command, told Vice Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, "All-out efforts were made to locate historical artifacts of Ghazi from various offices and organizations of this headquarters. However, regretfully, I was unable to lay my hands on many of the documents that I personally saw during my previous tenure."

Mohanrao went on to tell Hiranandani, "We are still continuing to search for old files and as and when they are located, I will send appropriate documents for your project." Mohanrao also refers to their inquiries with Commodore P S Bawa (retd), who worked with the Maritime Historical Society, to find out about the artifacts. Here also they drew a blank.

What Mohanrao's letter does not disclose is the letter written by Bawa himself in 1980. On December 20, 1980, Bawa, then a commander with the Maritime Historical Society, said, "In Virbahu, to my horror I found that all Gazi papers and signals were destroyed this year. Nothing is now available there." He was writing after a visit to Virbahu, the submarine centre at Vizag, where the documents, signals and other artifacts recovered from Ghazi were stored. His letter (MHS/23) was addressed to Vice Admiral M P Awati, the then chief of personnel at the naval headquarters.

Over the years, in the 1990s, as Vice Admiral Hiranandani sat down to write the official history of Navy, he made several efforts to get the Ghazi documents, records show. In one of his letters to the then chief of eastern naval command, Vice Admiral P S Das, he sought the track chart of the Ghazi, the official report of the diving operations on the Ghazi from December 1971 onwards and any other papers related to Ghazi. But none of it was available for the official historian of the Navy.

A retired Navy officer who saw action in 1971 said the destruction of the Ghazi papers and those of Army in Kolkata are all fitting into a larger trend, many of them suspected about Indian war history, of deliberate falsification in many instances. It is high time the real history of those past actions were revealed. "We have enough heroes," he said. "In the fog of war, many myths and false heroes may have been created and many honest ones left unsung," he admitted.

Now, no record of Navy sinking Pakistani submarine in 1971 - India - The Times of India

:pakistan::pakistan::pakistan::pakistan:
 
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I dont know weather GHAZI sank or sunked.

But i salute those 90 odd sailor's who gave there live, that cold december night, fighting for Mother land PAKISTAN.

May they rest in peace , in the depth of BAY of BANGAL.

I salute them with tear's in my eye's :pakistan::pakistan::pakistan:
 
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Exactly whatever the reason may be. They are our heroes. They laid down their lives for us. Salute to these heroes.

:pakistan:
 
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