Featured The fall and rise of Pakistani space ambitions

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... Given powerplants and stages of various Pakistani missiles are already confirmed to be of foreign origin, it doesn't have a notable R&D budget, barely barely any test facilities and has miserably failed to develop anything in this sector despite realising in mid-90s when India had become a significant spacefaring nation, it's quite clear they are not in a position to work upon systems they have, as they are imported.

Keep your stupid baqwas to yourself and try an invent something first instead of importing anything and everything from every corner of the world.

 

[jamahir]

Making data relay systems

Why are they required other than for rover-orbiter-Earth data transfer, Earth satcom and for future long-range communication on Mars ?

capable launch vehicles (making cryogenic engines and all) and validating it

There is a 2017-started Indian company Skyroot founded by three former ISRO scientists whose current aim is to provide launchers for light-class satellites. The company will be testing its cryogenic main-stage engine later this year :

“We will be using LNG (liquid natural gas), which has 90% methane and LOX (Liquid Oxygen),” Naga Bharath Daka, co-founder and COO, Skyroot, said. So far, the firm claims that it has completed some prerequisite tests that check for flow of the fuel and oxygen having established appropriate regulation mechanisms for the flow. They have completed structural integrity tests too.

I think even if the three scientists developed their cyro-engine knowledge in ISRO they will still have to develop the engineering attributes of the engine by themselves.

Same can be the case for Iran if they develop the will.

developing crew capsules

Capsules are old tech. The new need is for Starship-type spaceships which can take dozens of passengers to around the Moon, to Mars and be able to carry large amounts of cargo to the Moon and Mars.

space stations which Iran is unlikely to accomplish in this half of century at least.

What about India ?

Does ISRO have a space station project, even within the coming decade ?

Or will ISRO get the Americans to allow Indians to the ISS ?

Or will ISRO rely upon America-operated private inflatable space stations since the ISS is supposed to go out of operation in 2028 or so ?

Pakistani satellites and military rockets aren't a product of research.

Well, even ISRO had a start with the American Nike-Apache rocket and ISRO's engines have been French-origin, Russian-origin and what not. Not to mention the other subsystems. Even for GSLV.

 

[Indx-techs]

Why are they required other than for rover-orbiter-Earth data transfer, Earth satcom and for future long-range communication on Mars ?

They are required for continous communication to spacecraft. Since manned spaceflight is much lower in orbit than GEO (36,000 kms) hence there is an eclipse in communications with ground control dozens of times.

Tracking and data relay satellite - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

European Data Relay System - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Luch (satellite) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Tianlian - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Indian Data Relay Satellite System - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There is a 2017-started Indian company Skyroot founded by three former ISRO scientists whose current aim is to provide launchers for light-class satellites. The company will be testing its cryogenic main-stage engine later this year :

I think even if the three scientists developed their cyro-engine knowledge in ISRO they will still have to develop the engineering attributes of the engine by themselves.

Same can be the case for Iran if they develop the will.

Those scientists involved in engine development are former ISRO personnel. This company Skyroot itself was found former ISRO engineers and regularly gets inputs from ISRO. Making a medium lift launch vehicle like Long March 2F, Delta-III or GSLV MkIII will take at least decades to Iran with a highly optimistic approach. I repeat optimistic approach and excluding other things.

Capsules are old tech. The new need is for Starship-type spaceships which can take dozens of passengers to around the Moon, to Mars and be able to carry large amounts of cargo to the Moon and Mars.

Far fetched till nuclear propulsion is a reality. Long term future projects from VSSC.

https://imgur.com/a/ffL2XRp

What about India ?

Does ISRO have a space station project, even within the coming decade ?

Or will ISRO get the Americans to allow Indians to the ISS ?

Or will ISRO rely upon America-operated private inflatable space stations since the ISS is supposed to go out of operation in 2028 or so ?

Officially, a 20 tonnes lab soon after Gaganyaan. A 100 tonnes station due for 2027 in class of Mir or upcoming Chinese large modular space station too is being considered "seriously".

GOI has refused to join ISS. India will make its own at least once so. Later, our station might be docked with others to make a bigger one. But not ISS.

Well, even ISRO had a start with the American Nike-Apache rocket and ISRO's engines have been French-origin, Russian-origin and what not. Not to mention the other subsystems. Even for GSLV

Don't kill the context. ISRO went ahead with R&D. SUPARCO wasn't made to do so.

 

[jamahir]

Far fetched till nuclear propulsion is a reality.

I was talking about the SpaceX Starship which has chemical propulsion : Liquid Methane + Liquid Oxygen.

I quote this Wikipedia page :

Criticism

The Starship vehicle has been criticized for not adequately protecting astronauts from ionizing radiation on Mars missions; Musk has stated that he thinks the transit time to Mars will be too brief to lead to an increased risk of cancer, saying "it's not too big of a deal".

But what type of nuclear propulsion are you talking about ?

Officially, a 20 tonnes lab soon after Gaganyaan. A 100 tonnes station due for 2027 in class of Mir or upcoming Chinese large modular space station too is being considered "seriously".

GOI has refused to join ISS. India will make its own at least once so. Later, our station might be docked with others to make a bigger one. But not ISS.

Interesting. Any idea about international partnerships ?

ISRO went ahead with R&D. SUPARCO wasn't made to do so.

That is true.

 

[Indx-techs]

I was talking about the SpaceX Starship which has chemical propulsion : Liquid Methane + Liquid Oxygen.

I quote this Wikipedia page :

This is starship only for namesake. It is a space shuttle mounted on a super-heavy lift launch vehicle, only good for interplanetary orbital transportation. It is a much bigger version of GSLV mounted RLV-ORV which India is going to test next year.

Any feasible interestellar set would need to achieve at least 10-15% speed of light at minimum (and making any system which makes humans surviving at this speed is a challenge). At any speed less than it, astronauts will age and die within starship after decades of travel even before reaching even our nearest star.

Even if we assume that they remain alive, once, humans leave the gravity of solar system, their muscles will contract which poses them survival risk. And at this situation, when they will enter the gravity of solar system of a massive star, they will die in no time because of gravitational pressure. You know, humans can barely survive gravity of Jupiter.

But what type of nuclear propulsion are you talking about ?

Controlled pulse which energises a medium which is thrown out to create propulsion.

Interesting. Any idea about international partnerships ?

Not any. At best, Russia & Japan may be involved at some point of time because we have proposed tech exchanges plans with them.

Except for six countries; US, Russia, China, India, Japan and France, rest are nowhere in space tech to contribute anything. And these six countries are largely self deependent and run own projects preferably.

At best, we may carry astronauts of friendly countries like Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan or Bangladesh to space in name of corporation. And that too will happen only after our own astronauts start to fly frequently

There is no point jumping for international collaboration so much with countries which are not interested in such things at all. They either remain a customer of these techs like England or like Pakistan who assume that their host state will give it to them in platter once it makes it. They don't make any efforts.

 

[313ghazi]

If the much sanctioned Iran can have a human spaceflight program why can't Pakistan which is more resourced ?

Some text about the Iranian HSF program :


Pakistan should stop focusing only on satellites and military rockets and broaden its research.

@ps3linux @Hamartia Antidote

Iran has leaders who care about Iran, we have had leaders who care about their own pockets. That's the biggest difference. Also frankly because we have bigger problems. I want to see an end to people dying of preventable diseases, child malnutrition, low unemployment, low literacy rate etc etc.

Of course that is not to say that a competent space programme would prevent any of those things. Like i said our problem is the rampant corruption. Every single part of our state is steeped in it, busy working together to loot the country.

 

[Baby Leone]

Keeping in view Pakistan’s alliance with United States during the Cold War era, Pakistan naturally came to be viewed as the most convenient option for Washington to collaborate with in the Indian Ocean in order to achieve its goal of a lunar landing before 1969.

USA naturally depended on Pakistan for all her achievements it seems..

 

[jamahir]

This is starship only for namesake. It is a space shuttle mounted on a super-heavy lift launch vehicle, only good for interplanetary orbital transportation.

I know it is an interplanetary and not interstellar craft. Even Musk doesn't claim otherwise.

But it can not only do interplanet orbit but also descend on Mars surface on its bottom fins. They also propose the booster plus Starship to become a faster Earth-to-Earth mode of travel. Watch this vid. "Anywhere on Earth under an hour".

The development is seemingly happening fast.

It is a much bigger version of GSLV mounted RLV-ORV which India is going to test next year.

What is ORV ?

Any feasible interestellar set would need to achieve at least 10-15% speed of light at minimum

I see.

(and making any system which makes humans surviving at this speed is a challenge)

Even if we assume that they remain alive, once, humans leave the gravity of solar system, their muscles will contract which poses them survival risk. And at this situation, when they will enter the gravity of solar system of a massive star, they will die in no time because of gravitational pressure. You know, humans can barely survive gravity of Jupiter.

Some years ago I had read of application of a special fluid in long-distance spacecraft. This fluid will cover the main areas of the spacecraft and the travelers are immersed in it. The fluid though will enter the lungs of the travelers will still allow them to perform respiration. The reason this fluid will be used is it can dampen the G-force produced by very high speed propulsion.

But yes the travelers have to manage to survive the gravitational pull ( or push ? ) of another star whose gravity is not familiar.

At any speed less than it, astronauts will age and die within starship after decades of travel even before reaching even our nearest star.

An old idea "Project Daedalus" seems interesting.

Controlled pulse which energises a medium which is thrown out to create propulsion.

Are you talking about NERVA ?

What do you think about VASIMR and Nuclear Pulse Propulsion ? They seem to be more easier and safer to me than NERVA.

And there is a method being followed by the Indian company Bellatrix that somehow converts stored water to plasma which is thrown out to propel the craft. To me this seems to be okay for uncrewed craft but not useful for crewed craft because the water would be required for consumption, hygiene, plant growth and to act as radiation shield.

Not any. At best, Russia & Japan may be involved at some point of time because we have proposed tech exchanges plans with them.

I see.

At best, we may carry astronauts of friendly countries like Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan or Bangladesh to space in name of corporation. And that too will happen only after our own astronauts start to fly frequently

Right.