The failings of democracy, secularism, free market capitalism

[Awesome]

Z,

We're not computers seeking a programmatical, picture perfect definition of secularism for its implementation.

Thats why we have usually human interventions by qualified, scrutinized men and women, "judging" on a case by case scenario, what defies the tenets of secularism and hence it can be corrected.

AND

Secularism is not the adoption of atheism. You and I can keep believing in what we want. But my government should not carry any of those views. It should carry views that the representatives of government we've placed in, have agreed upon.

Islam, I believe is not in defiance of secularism. It grants equality to minority religions in phenomenal ways:

"I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worshop what I worship, I won't worship what you worship. To you, your religion and to me mine"
-- Surat-al-Kafiroon, The holy Quran.

To defy secularism hence is equivalent to defy Islam.

 

[Awesome]

AN
I have to agree with Zyxius that you're going overboard with this and you definitely are not neutral. You seem the least neutral of all of us, even more than Zyxius and he definitely isn't neutral.
Just breathe and calm down.

SMM,

What does it matter to you who he is? Don't comment on the person, comment upon what the person is talking about! Especially when you two obviously don't seem to be on good terms with each other.

 

[Always Neutral]

Z,

We're not computers seeking a programmatical, picture perfect definition of secularism for its implementation.

Thats why we have usually human interventions by qualified, scrutinized men and women, "judging" on a case by case scenario, what defies the tenets of secularism and hence it can be corrected.

AND

Secularism is not the adoption of atheism. You and I can keep believing in what we want. But my government should not carry any of those views. It should carry views that the representatives of government we've placed in, have agreed upon.

Islam, I believe is not in defiance of secularism. It grants equality to minority religions in phenomenal ways:

"I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worshop what I worship, I won't worship what you worship. To you, your religion and to me mine"
-- Surat-al-Kafiroon, The holy Quran.

To defy secularism hence is equivalent to defy Islam.

Very Well Said AA,

Could not have put it better than that.

Regards

 

[Awesome]

Btw, french law to ban scarfs is NOT secularism so is the same for Turkey.

Secularism can be the ABSENCE of religion, but not the opposition of religion.

And a practice that does not enforce religion upon others but is a personal practice is okay by any means of secularism. Of course they are not fooling anyone, they are just a bunch of hypocrites, attacking Muslims by fine tweaking their laws under the guise of secularism.

I would agree with Z on one thing. The majority hardly ever means justice. Quite often, the majority is just tyrranical over the minority.

 

[Always Neutral]

CNN.com - French Cabinet adopts scarf ban - Jan. 29, 2004


The bill stipulates that "in schools, junior high schools and high schools, signs and dress that conspicuously show the religious affiliation of students are forbidden."

It would not apply to students in private schools or to French schools in other countries.

Under the legislation, sanctions for refusing to remove conspicuous religious signs would range from a warning to temporary suspension from school to expulsion.

 

[Always Neutral]

Btw, french law to ban scarfs is NOT secularism so is the same for Turkey.

Secularism can be the ABSENCE of religion, but not the opposition of religion.

And a practice that does not enforce religion upon others but is a personal practice is okay by any means of secularism. Of course they are not fooling anyone, they are just a bunch of hypocrites, attacking Muslims by fine tweaking their laws under the guise of secularism.

I would agree with Z on one thing. The majority hardly ever means justice. Quite often, the majority is just tyrranical over the minority.

Ok agreed a scarf is quite an innocent symbol of muslim religion but then where does it stop.

Next the Zulu warrior may insist on carrying his spear to class, the sikh may insist on his sword and the christian on his bible.

School is for studies, religion can be done later at home or in a place of worship.

Anyway private schools are exempt from this ban so the law is quite fair.

Regards

 

[Zyxius]

Ok...so to those of you who feel that the ban on expression of religious identity in public school is perfectly ok...I ask this:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

 

[JK!]

Ok...so to those of you who feel that the ban on expression of religious identity in public school is perfectly ok...I ask this:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

Easy tell em all to go back and come in school UNIFORM

 

[Zyxius]

They dont have uniforms for public schools in France. And let's assume we are speaking generically anyway.

So I ask again:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

 

[Flintlock]

They dont have uniforms for public schools in France. And let's assume we are speaking generically anyway.

So I ask again:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

I don't think any of them should or will be banned.

 

[Vinod2070]

Now, what if the school happens to be in Pakistan?

And why this strange fascination with banning something when you were opposing it for the head scarves?

 

[Always Neutral]

They dont have uniforms for public schools in France. And let's assume we are speaking generically anyway.

So I ask again:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

Dear ZY,

Please post a link if anybody has been sent home. Secondly the uniform of Govt Schools in France is decided by the school in consultation with the parents association and most schools allow smocks so that the children from ethenic diversities do not have to invest in expensive french clothes to conform.

If you have proof that some one has been sent out from a French School for the above T shirts please post a genuine link and lets debate the merits.

Meanwhile lets also enlarge the debate to both France and Saudi Arabia and change the first Childs TEE shirt to

"I Dont believe in Allah" ( I am not saying it from any muslim point of view but from a Saudi reaction point of view)

Lets than have an honest debate on both secularism of France and Saudi Arabia.

Regards

 

[Zyxius]

Dear ZY,

Please post a link if anybody has been sent home.

If you have proof that some one has been sent out from a French School for the above T shirts please post a genuine link and lets debate the merits.

Dude....its a hypothetical question....I thought that was obvious.

Meanwhile lets also enlarge the debate to both France and Saudi Arabia and change the first Childs TEE shirt to

"I Dont believe in Allah" ( I am not saying it from any muslim point of view but from a Saudi reaction point of view)

Lets than have an honest debate on both secularism of France and Saudi Arabia.

....the Secularism of Saudi Arabia?

Saudi Arabia is not a secular country, makes no such claim and also makes no claim that it will accommodate freedom of expression or anything of the sort. I am not defending Saudi, but you are comparing apples and oranges and this thread is about Secularism....its totally irrelevant.

Lets please stick to the subject and I ask you to please respond to my hypothetical question:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

And I'll add a fifth t-shirt to the list.

5. Christian cross printed on the t-shirt.

 

[Always Neutral]

Dude....its a hypothetical question....I thought that was obvious.

....the Secularism of Saudi Arabia?

Saudi Arabia is not a secular country, makes no such claim and also makes no claim that it will accommodate freedom of expression or anything of the sort. I am not defending Saudi, but you are comparing apples and oranges and this thread is about Secularism....its totally irrelevant.

.

Why is Saudi not secular ? After all AA pointed in his post that Islam allows all religions to flourish. Hence as the upholders of true Islam should not Saudi Arabia be also Islamic ?

Why leave them out of debate ? Why compare the secularism of the West only ?

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

Dude....its a hypothetical question....I thought that was obvious.


Lets please stick to the subject and I ask you to please respond to my hypothetical question:

four kids walk into school each wearing a different shirt with a message on it:

1. I believe in Allah and Mohammad (SAW) as His last Messenger
2. I don't believe in God
3. I believe we evolved from Monkeys
4. I dont believe in evolution theory

Please tell me which students should be sent back home and their t shirts banned?

And I'll add a fifth t-shirt to the list.

5. Christian cross printed on the t-shirt.

You can add 200 more tee shirts but it still will be a hypothetical question and hence it has no relavence as it does not lead to any conclusion whether France's secularism is right or wrong.

I think its you who is deviating from the topic by asking hypothetical questions. Why not first answer my hypothetical question about Saudi Arabia ?

Regards