The enemy and Pakistan Army

[Bang Galore]

India only wants one thing, and that is to be the big brother of South Asia. Indeed Pakistan can do very little to stop India just like India can do very little to stop Pakistan. Despite loud rhetoric from India in the form of teaching Pakistan a lesson or destroying Pakistan, India has not been able to do anything about it .

I thought we agreed that India has stopped Pakistan from growing its economy. That should be enough.

For argument sakes, lets multiply 26/11 by 10 times and that too all around India. Do you honestly believe all the investors are not going to run away from India, is your memory too short to remember the stand off after the Parliament attacks.

For argument sakes, if India were to actually intervene in Pakistan, we don't even need to worry about the logistics of supplying weapons, all we need is to make sure that enough money gets poured in. Pakistan is awash with weapons. So much easier.

Every now & then, you get the one odd successful terrorist strike. It is not the norm. If you actually believe that Pakistan could pull this off regularly, you should be asking why you don't have Kashmir by now?

And you think this cannot be reciprocated by Pakistan. There are over 100 seperatist organizations inside India, how about Pakistan starts arming them with IED's, RPG's and AK47's. Whatever you can do, Pakistan can reciprocate in the same manner my friend.

Logistics my friend, logistics. It's not for want of trying.

That will have a blowback effect as Pakistan will start supporting proxy groups inside India which will forsure lead to a full on conventional war, i pray to God that never happens.

Blowback? If it was only so simple. How come you never worry about blowback when you support attacks on the Indian embassy and the like? We can always ratchet up the pressure within Pakistan as well as in Afghanistan. We simply have far more financial resources than you can muster. Supporting proxy groups in India is easier said than done when you are involved in full scale fire fighting.

In any case, that's my point. We have checkmated you. We are the status quo power & every year that passes, we grown stronger. Military strength, deterrence do not exist in a vacuum, just to be discussed on online forums. They exist as an instrument to further state aims. We have succeeded in our aims of maintaining the status quo and you have failed in your attempt in getting Kashmir. If you want further proof of that, you do realise that with all the dam construction (with our own money, I might add) in Kashmir, we have in our hands the complete control of your water heads. Whether we use it or not, it's a capability that exists on the ground. Support for insurgencies are a long slow process, control over water is way simpler as a method of applying pressure.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe Shearer when did you become a hawk ?

Never did. It's just that patriotism, cultural, political, or militant, at the cost of factual accuracy has never appealed to me. I can't help ticking off even those whom I like when they resort to bold, blustering speech. It doesn't matter, as you might have noticed yourself, what nationality the tea-kettle in question happens to be, when the steam starts up.

For the rest, I believe that liberals are people with common points of view and social and political orientation, and that catholicism applies to the south Asian situation too. In the specific south Asian context, I am opposed on the one hand to Indian revisionism in history and in culture, and the equivalent of the Two Nation Theory. Actually, that should be the Two Nation Theory, because from all accounts, it was my least favourite religious bigot, who happened to proclaim himself an atheist, Savarkar, who articulated this half-baked notion first. I don't like blowhards who proclaim the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force to be supermen who can whup their weight in wildcats, or Pakistani special forces men; it does less than justice to our troops, who are ordinary men like you and me (like me, anyway) doing their duty in very difficult circumstances.

On the other hand, I am opposed to religious bigots who want to convert all kaffirs, and to fly the flag proudly on the ramparts of the Red Fort. Flying the flag on the ramparts of the Red Fort is enough of a social and cultural crime in itself, without some other country with serious inferiority complexes seeking to do it. Those in that country who proclaim their miraculously retrospective citizenship that runs back to 3500 BC, who proclaim that their good looks and fairness of complexion proclaims their distinction over the south Asian hoi polloi, and who take refuge in the innate 10-to-1 superiority of their soldiers over the snivelling Hindu are again not my first thoughts for a friend with whom to share a cocktail. Let us not even come to the bumptious Bs. And finally, our trolley bus, available for propaganda campaigns and advertisement for anyone with a 50 paise coin.

 

[Edevelop]

My wonderful thread has been ruined by Indians. ........

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistan was naive enough to believe that India would honour the plebiscite, after all she was a young nation going up against the likes of a schrewd and a seasoned politican like Nehru. Lets be realistic here for one second, the reason why Pakistan changed its demand because it was obvious that India was not going to agree to a plebiscite as it was going to emerge as the looser. The other side of the coin is India has a strong force of 700 000 men in Kashmir armed to the teeth, there is no way the Mujahideen or the PA can evict them by force. Thus, Pakistan took the saner option and thought outside the box.

This is not an accurate account, and reflects urban legend, rather than fact. The facts have been recited over and over again. Pakistan has nobody but her intransigent and overly-clever foreign servants and civilian and military administrators to blame if she perceives any grounds for grievance in the Kashmir situation, since it was they who filibustered the UN Resolutions during the meetings of the Commission. They refused to submit a time-table for withdrawal of Pakistani troops and arms-bearing civilians, linked it to a similar Indian action which was not sought but which they demanded should be a reciprocative gesture, and then refused any further movement, in spite of repeated directions from the UN.

It was afteer this futile and frustrating, and extremely narrow-minded display of intransigence, that the plebiscite idea went away.

There was no question of fearing a plebiscite, as the only organised political movement was solidly in favour of India. It is worth reminding ourselves that until Farooq Abdullah rigged the elections, political thinking in Srinagar had left Geelani stranded high and dry. He got a fresh lease of life, and a fortune in ISI subsidies, only after the blatant abuse of the election process drove away a significant segment of Kashmiri public opinion.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistanis would gladly follow their army to doom than prosper with the enemy.

Who are we to prevent you from pursuing your pleasures? Just don't blame us for it when you are in mid-flight with your fellow lemmings.

My wonderful thread has been ruined by Indians. ........

Never mind. You are young. Start another.

 

[Bang Galore]

Joe Shearer when did you become a hawk ?

Reminds me of a quote.

Hawks? Doves? We are running a foreign policy here, not a bird sanctuary !
- K.Natwar Singh, former MEA

 

[KS]

For the rest, I believe that liberals are people with common points of view and social and political orientation, and that catholicism applies to the south Asian situation too. In the specific south Asian context, I am opposed on the one hand to Indian revisionism in history and in culture, and the equivalent of the Two Nation Theory. Actually, that should be the Two Nation Theory, because from all accounts, it was my least favourite religious bigot, who happened to proclaim himself an atheist, Savarkar, who articulated this half-baked notion first. I don't like blowhards who proclaim the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force to be supermen who can whup their weight in wildcats, or Pakistani special forces men; it does less than justice to our troops, who are ordinary men like you and me (like me, anyway) doing their duty in very difficult circumstances.

Two Nation Theory or not, Savarkar or not, Jinnah or not, Waliullah or not, a United India would not have been a feasible/practical entity and we would have gone the Yugoslav way with multiple tiny republics instead of the present three, had there not been a Partition. And lets agree to disagree on your utter dumping of the Two Nation Theory.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Two Nation Theory or not, Savarkar or not, Jinnah or not, Waliullah or not, a United India would not have been a feasible/practical entity and we would have gone the Yugoslav way with multiple tiny republics instead of the present three, had there not been a Partition. And lets agree to disagree on your utter dumping of the Two Nation Theory.

Whether we agree to do so or not, we will disagree on those subjects, so don't sweat it!

 

[KS]

Whether we agree to do so or not, we will disagree on those subjects, so don't sweat it!

True and I hate to say that it is going to be my generation and the next that will witness the after effects - positive or negative.

 

[Joe Shearer]

True and I hate to say that it is going to be my generation and the next that will witness the after effects - positive or negative.

My turn.

True. And if your generation and the next shows the gradual shrinking of the Sangh Parivar that the poll results seem to indicate, that is quite acceptable to this generation.

Incidentally, that in itself is a positive after effect.

 

[RazPaK]

Who are we to prevent you from pursuing your pleasures? Just don't blame us for it when you are in mid-flight with your fellow lemmings.



Never mind. You are young. Start another.

Blame you for what?

You are the enemy. You will do what is natural. And using deceit is the forte of the Indians.


And what is your interest in lemmings? Another attempt into branding us as one of your own?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Blame you for what?

You are the enemy. You will do what is natural. And using deceit is the forte of the Indians.


And what is your interest in lemmings? Another attempt into branding us as one of your own?

Errr....that's exactly it.

We are, to you, until you reach 18, the enemy. You will act as you have said, and, as a Pakistani, continue to "gladly follow the Pakistani army to their doom than prosper with the enemy." So that's your decision, both the following to its doom of the army, and the thinking of us as the enemy. Not due to us, or to our deceit, unless you think we are going to smartly step aside and let you rush over the edge of the cliff.

Just between you and me and the lamp-post, that was a silly retort, and there are times when it is worth thinking things through before retorting.

About the lemmings: they are the ones who follow their army to the doom rather than prosper with the enemy.

 

[KS]

My turn.

True. And if your generation and the next shows the gradual shrinking of the Sangh Parivar that the poll results seem to indicate, that is quite acceptable to this generation.

Blaming Sangh Parivar for everything will not set right anything nor are they even responsible for everything. They have had a promotion from being a 'nuisance' to a 'necessary nuisance' because of the prevailing political climate. So lets all hope for a change in the political climate which will take away the oxygen critical to their growth.

 

[RazPaK]

Errr....that's exactly it.

We are, to you, until you reach 18, the enemy. You will act as you have said, and, as a Pakistani, continue to "gladly follow the Pakistani army to their doom than prosper with the enemy." So that's your decision, both the following to its doom of the army, and the thinking of us as the enemy. Not due to us, or to our deceit, unless you think we are going to smartly step aside and let you rush over the edge of the cliff.

Just between you and me and the lamp-post, that was a silly retort, and there are times when it is worth thinking things through before retorting.

About the lemmings: they are the ones who follow their army to the doom rather than prosper with the enemy.

And what responsibility towards us do you have? It doesn't take a woman's intuition to realize what is clawing at your insecurities. It hurts knowing that there are people like Ajtr that speak against your nation's hegemonic policies, while we the Pakistani people fully support our armed forces. An enemy is an enemy whether it bares teeth like a jackal, or comes in the form of an oasis.

A lemming is far more honorable than a hyena or an opportunist.

 

[DeathGod]

I dont understand why all of us (Indians) want to prove that India is not Pakistan's enemy. In the long run, it will be to our detriment. As it is Pakistan's economy is failing and they cant match India's military might. If we just continue to grow at 6-9% and spend the same amount on defence as we are then we will be much more powerful than we are. Pakistan in its folly will try to prevent herself from the supposed aggression by diveriting more and more money to its armed forces. This when coupled with an ailing economy based on primarily textile and agricultural exports will hurt it.

Spending on education will decrease further which will lead to a rise in attendance in madarsas ( most of which will be funded by Saudi petro-dollars). This will create a new generation of more fundamentalist pakistanis which will end up doing their state more harm.

In the end, it will cause Pakistan to either disintegrate, reconcile or go into a civil war. Any of these outcomes will be for India's benefit in the long run. I do not feel we should stop Pakistanis from focusing on India and buying more and more arms.

@Pakistanis: We are going to eat you alive. So buy more and more arms to anihilate India. And while doing so, start teaching and practicing Sharia.