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The delusion of identity

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Sound nonsense obviously to the quam whose name is derived from a foreign nations river lol.

Yeah but tell us where Greek got it from but no that would show you how ludicrious modern India really is.

Modern India is quivalent to the Macedonia debate.

556px-Macedonia_overview.svg.png


See how little part of ancient Macedonia is now in modern Macedonia, Indians have the same thing going on trying to steal Pakistani ancient history.

Steal? Bro history can not be stealed. It runs in your blood, they can be proud of our ancestors i don't care. Just like europeans are proud of greek civilization.
 
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@ The Topic

It is disheartening to see a fellow jatt being so confused about our identity, to the point of writing a nonsense article with little coherence. The concept of our foundation is quite clear and requires little more than a cursory glance at real history for the perceptive mind to understand. Look to your east, would the Republic of India today have been one if there wasn't the common thread of hinduism, its culture, identity, and history combined, to bind disparate ethnic groups into one state? What other reason would they have to be together, from an assamese or punjabi to a tamil or keralite? I've seen some right wing indian members here agree with that view.

So, as elucidated by the two nation theory, Islam and our Muslim identity is also the binding factor which creates a feeling of Pakistani nationhood. Before Pakistan, the people of Pakistan (I can speak about native Punjabis and Sindhis) mostly lived on these lands for millennia, so our identity is also partially composed of that, but superseded by the brotherhood of Islam. At any rate, at this stage of the nation's maturity, there should really be no need to ponder over the raison d'etre and identity. We are here, and will remain here, we've withstood the test of time and will continue to do so till the day of judgement. The primary focus should be, of course clichéd but necessary, alleviating our common people's plight and suffering.

@ Off topic

@KingMamba If you are truly interested in anthropology of how south Asia was populated in the period between 60,000 and 10,000 ybp, then I would recommend looking into recent scholarship about it which is illuminating despite leaving some open ended questions.

For instance, the Aryan Invasion theory has been squarely debunked of late, but even by that line of argument, the western scholars consider the earlier inhabitants and founders of the Indus valley civilization as dravidians before people of Centrial Asian origins invaded (or likely migrated) in waves to the this region.

If that does not suit you, then I suppose the Aryan theory goes out of the window :lol:

Now the more serious and peer-reviewed scholarship which rubbishes the Aryan-dravidian divide, still holds a somewhat ambiguous stance towards the ethnic or linguistic characteristics of IVC people. In fact it is one of the most interesting areas of anthropology!

But the line of research which is slowly gaining most acceptance, draws a connection between the IVC language and an extinct elamo-dravidian language. Of course one branch of that ethno-linguistic group, the Elamites, eventually became extinct after Iranians moved to southern parts of present-day Iran from Central Asia. But the other branch, luckily, exists in the form of our Brahui speakers and the dravidians of South India. In fact, some scholars have drawn symbolic and other connections between recovered scripts and the Tamil language, as it is considered as one of the oldest continuous dravidian languages and least "polluted" by Indo-Aryan influence.

Here's a couple of references if you are interested in further reading.

Clyde Winters, Current Science, Vol. 103 No. 10, 25 November, 2012
http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/103/10/1220.pdf

Asko Parpola, University of Helsinki, Finland
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/archive/00133/_A_Dravidian_Soluti_133901a.pdf


Btw Sir, weren't you a Syed? :rofl: j/k It's best to be open minded and scientific with regards to our shared heritage. We can deny them the legacy of Sher Shah Suri, the Lodhis/Khiljis and Mughals ;), but not pre-Islamic history of Punjab and Sindh.
 
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@pehgaam e mohabbat

I don't believe in Invasion theory sir nothing supports such a theory I believe in migration theory if anything. Yes I am a Syed your point? Are you saying I should not consider myself Pakistani even though my family migrated more than 500 years ago married locals, adopted local customs and language, and considers Pakistan our homeland?

BTW those links you gave me especially of Asko is somebody I already mentioned in this thread if you look back but even if the inhabitants of IVC were Dravidian language speakers that does not give Indians any claim because like I have stated over and over the most sophisticated sites were in Pakistan implying the center was in Pakistan, the oldest site was found in Balochistan as well. Heck even if you wanna say there is genetic affinity between IVC and people beyond the eastern banks of Indus it doesn't give them claim because even Mesopotamian had genetic affinity to ancient peninsula people that does not mean modern Saudis can claim Babylon lol. The funny thing though is that Indians do not say it is the language or the genetics that give them claim but the religion which is based on faulty logic since the religion they speak about came after the decline of said civilization and mingling of foreign migrants. :pop:
 
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@ The Topic


j/k It's best to be open minded and scientific with regards to our shared heritage. We can deny them the legacy of Sher Shah Suri, the Lodhis/Khiljis and Mughals ;), but not pre-Islamic history of Punjab and Sindh.

h.

As i said before they can be proud of our ancestors, we don't care. ;)
 
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As i said before they can be proud of our ancestors, we don't care. ;)

The problem is they try to say since Pakistanis don't follow xyz religion Pakistanis are not the inheritors of IVC lolsz. When you bring up the fact that xyz had nothing to do with IVC they get butt hurt.
 
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The problem is they try to say since Pakistanis don't follow xyz religion Pakistanis are not the inheritors of IVC lolsz. When you bring up the fact that xyz had nothing to do with IVC they get butt hurt.

They know who we are. They have identity crisis going on. It happens when base of one's whole civilization is in enemy country, forefathers of your civilization are now your enemies. ;)
 
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@pehgaam e mohabbat

I don't believe in Invasion theory sir nothing supports such a theory I believe in migration theory if anything. Yes I am a Syed your point? Are you saying I should not consider myself Pakistani even though my family migrated more than 500 years ago married locals, adopted local customs and language, and considers Pakistan our homeland?

BTW those links you gave me especially of Asko is somebody I already mentioned in this thread if you look back but even if the inhabitants of IVC were Dravidian language speakers that does not give Indians any claim because like I have stated over and over the most sophisticated sites were in Pakistan implying the center was in Pakistan, the oldest site was found in Balochistan as well. Heck even if you wanna say there is genetic affinity between IVC and people beyond the eastern banks of Indus it doesn't give them claim because even Mesopotamian had genetic affinity to ancient peninsula people that does not mean modern Saudis can claim Babylon lol. The funny thing though is that Indians do not say it is the language or the genetics that give them claim but the religion which is based on faulty logic since the religion they speak about came after the decline of said civilization and mingling of foreign migrants. :pop:

Ah I didn't go through all 25 pages. Only speaking from an anthropological perspective, they have just about equal claim to the heritage, given back and forth migrations across the radcliffe line :-) when IVC entered its decline, especially after the Cemetary H culture or late Harappan period. It would be wrong of them to claim religious connection to the civilization as the language and religion is yet to be fully deciphered. However it exhibits evidence of proto-dravidian animism and nature worship, hence all those symbols wrongly mistaken as hindu gods.

And ofcourse I was just pulling your leg. You're about as Arab as Bahadur Shah Zafar was Chagtai Turk, I guess :) These debates are even less relevant if you are interested in wider scientific history and the waves of migration from our original homelands- East Africa.

Anyway, I'll leave you to engage in these troll wars to your heart's content. Adios.
 
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@pehgaam e mohabbat

I don't believe in Invasion theory sir nothing supports such a theory I believe in migration theory if anything. Yes I am a Syed your point? Are you saying I should not consider myself Pakistani even though my family migrated more than 500 years ago married locals, adopted local customs and language, and considers Pakistan our homeland?

BTW those links you gave me especially of Asko is somebody I already mentioned in this thread if you look back but even if the inhabitants of IVC were Dravidian language speakers that does not give Indians any claim because like I have stated over and over the most sophisticated sites were in Pakistan implying the center was in Pakistan, the oldest site was found in Balochistan as well. Heck even if you wanna say there is genetic affinity between IVC and people beyond the eastern banks of Indus it doesn't give them claim because even Mesopotamian had genetic affinity to ancient peninsula people that does not mean modern Saudis can claim Babylon lol. The funny thing though is that Indians do not say it is the language or the genetics that give them claim but the religion which is based on faulty logic since the religion they speak about came after the decline of said civilization and mingling of foreign migrants. :pop:

That al hasani claim everything under the sun, remind me of Indian hindus on pdf.

Ah I didn't go through all 25 pages. Only speaking from an anthropological perspective, they have just about equal claim to the heritage, given back and forth migrations across the radcliffe line :-)lol:) when IVC entered its decline, especially after the Cemetary H culture or late Harappan period. It would be wrong of them to claim religious connection to the civilization as the language and religion is yet to be fully deciphered. However it exhibits evidence of proto-dravidian animism and nature worship, hence all those symbols wrongly mistaken as hindu gods.

And ofcourse I was just pulling your leg. You're about as Arab as Bahadur Shah Zafar was Chagtai Turk, I guess :) These debates are even less relevant if you are interested in wider scientific history and the waves of migration from our original homelands- East Africa.

Anyway, I'll leave you to engage in these troll wars to your heart's content. Adios.

Bro i don't know if you have read latest genetic test study. ANI-ASI admixture is only 2200 years old in punjabis, sindhis and Indian brahmins. Its believed now that older civilizations in Pak were mostly ANI, nothing to do with South Indian. Our ASI ancestry is only 2200 years old, or at most 2500 years old.

Anyway current day South Indians being IVC people theory was weak anyway. I hope they test Brahui people and see how old ANI-ASI admixture is in them. It seem dravidians forefathers are also Pakistani ;)
 
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@pehgaam e mohabbat

Yeah thats what I been trying to tell them there is no way to know what they believed because the language has not been deciphered.

The Indian called me a dumb *** so i just trolled him is all but nah i am done with this thread too.
 
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Sound nonsense obviously to the quam whose name is derived from a foreign nations river lol.

Yeah but tell us where Greek got it from but no that would show you how ludicrious modern India really is.

Modern India is quivalent to the Macedonia debate.

556px-Macedonia_overview.svg.png


See how little part of ancient Macedonia is now in modern Macedonia, Indians have the same thing going on trying to steal Pakistani ancient history.

That sounds like Pot calling the Kettle black. :girl_wacko: More than half of your country lies to the West of Indus rivers which was never included as India by Greek historians, only a small part of India lies within modern Pakistan just like FYROM has small part of Macedonia. You mean Balochistan was India. :omghaha: So, please stop faking the history with your jholachap expert knowledge. :omghaha::omghaha:

Persians are next door and whole indus valley was part of their empire. But lets believe in greeks anyway lol

It seems your jholachap expert knowledge is more authentic than Megasthenes historical account. :omghaha::omghaha:

No proof that this represents shiva other than Hindu hopefuls.

That's the Yoga posture, if you have basic knowledge of Yoga its easy to find it and most of the historians believe that's its an earlier form of Rudra.
 
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@pehgaam e mohabbat

Yeah thats what I been trying to tell them there is no way to know what they believed because the language has not been deciphered.

The Indian called me a dumb *** so i just trolled him is all but nah i am done with this thread too.

Archaeological finding and pottery architecture are also important to knew about the lost civilization if one don't know the script and thus Late Harappan culture of Cemetery H culture is early Rigvedic culture by the description of rivers. Now, there should be a limit to the denial of history. :o::o::o::o:

Please send us the hidden chapters of Rig Veda ... we want to follow the pure Hinduism not the mixture.

Hope he even know the basics of Sanskrit language before sending us the hidden message in Rigveda. :laugh:

Many indians claim about river sarasvati.But it a fact and not known that where the hell truely the sarasvati river was.

Notice the marked SWAT in Pink.

So it is not that The unknown Pakistani monotheist religionw as only limited to People of Punjab but it had spread upto KPK,SWAT and kashmir/GB.
Hence this is a fact that Indians or majority of the hindus followed some south indians religion.
The present day Pakistan was completely seperated froma any part of india and indian mostly used to live in South india.

Rigvedic_geography.jpg


Pink one is Gandhara grave culture and brown one is cemetery H culture(Last phase of IVC). Together they gave rise to Early Indian culture and Hinduism. BTW first Pashtun tribe arrived in Gandhara only after 9th century, so how you own that history :girl_wacko:
 
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They were one tough lot I must say .... BTW in which year Darius invaded the Indus civilization? :undecided:

1000 years after Indus Civilization ended but MartianMamba knew that Darius invaded IVC and gave this land a Greek name called India(Ἰνδία). :sarcastic::sarcastic:
 
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For vast majority of Pakistanis India is some dirty place where people worship idols which we can never identify with , that's a fact and it's not going to change ever
 
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1000 years after Indus Civilization ended but MartianMamba knew that Darius invaded IVC and gave this land a Greek name called India(Ἰνδία). :sarcastic::sarcastic:

You are a blatant liar Greeks farted the name out of thin air right? Anyway carry own go visit your mudhuts you call IVC sites based on your own ASI organization. :lol:

While Pakistanis will visit the sophisticated sites that made up the backbone of Indus valley.
 
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That sounds like Pot calling the Kettle black. :girl_wacko: More than half of your country lies to the West of Indus rivers which was never included as India by Greek historians, only a small part of India lies within modern Pakistan just like FYROM has small part of Macedonia. You mean Balochistan was India. :omghaha: So, please stop faking the history with your jholachap expert knowledge. :omghaha::omghaha:



It seems your jholachap expert knowledge is more authentic than Megasthenes historical account. :omghaha::omghaha:



That's the Yoga posture, if you have basic knowledge of Yoga its easy to find it and most of the historians believe that's its an earlier form of Rudra.

There are ruins of IVC even in Balochistan are you stupid? Greeks based their info from Persian accounts which described Darius conquering Hind which Greeks translated into their language how else you think Alexander knew about India or are you saying the Greeks only knew when Megasthenes came along when he was under the Seleucids long after Alexander? If anyone if faking history it is you but I don't need to tell you that just go to page 1 and all can see.

Nor Did Darius conquer anywhere past the Indus.

Most historians? Ok list the sources that say that is exactly what the picture represents. Actually let me save you the trouble because no historian worth a grain of salt will say his own theory is the definitive answer considering no one has been able to decipher the text on top of the seal.
 
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