The Credibility of Faith - a poetic essay

[Unbeliever]

I recommend watching in HD.

 

[Luftwaffe]

atheist stuff halarious!...move on..

 

[Unbeliever]

The opening video is not really meant to be 'funny', just interesting or curious...

He has comedy too though, for example

Don't be so close-minded.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I have not watched these videos but i am well aware of atheists' rants..
my mind is all open take it as " open circuit architecture" so its the other way round for atheists..(open a thread i shall response in full to all atheists leaving no doubts unless after proven they or and you deny)

Useless thread Mods close it.

 

[Unbeliever]

I have not watched these videos but i am well aware of atheists' rants..

You are obviously not aware of much.. These videos aren't "rants" by any stretch of what that word means.

One is a satire of the literal reading of the Noah Arc story, the other is basically just the question of "Why should this one be true?" posed in an intelligent and aesthetic way. If you'd watched at least one, you would know.
But religiosity is based on ignorance so you were taught to disregard all other considerations beforehand.

my mind is all open.

Sure, you won't even watch a 6 minute video and want this thread closed, but your mind is open.. don't be ridiculous.

Religious people by definition are not (truly) open minded since they claim to have the absolute and unquestionable truth already before them, that precludes an open mind to some of the most important questions..

If you think you have something worthwhile to say, do it right here in this thread and spare my some scripture scribblings, they are meaningless. You think they are true because it says so in the book itself.. well I'm not that gullible.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Unbeliever

Why don't you also watch this and take your journey further.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Also watch these videos. The person very amusingly explains the problems modern physics is facing.

 

[Unbeliever]

Thanks for the first link. I will watch the other ones later.
Quantum Physics is indeed an interesting and somewhat mind-blowing field.

However this "reality is an illusion" statement in my opinion shouldn't be made into more than what it really means. These kinds of videos sometimes border on mysticism and pseudoscience, especially if combined with 'Superstring theory' and the glorification of the unsolved puzzle of consciousness. Especially the end of the first video is more esoteric (and there is nothing wrong with that in principle, it is just not clearly differentiated from the science) I would argue.
Especially because of the way that it is cut together.

If you break things down to the very small scale, it might be true that our laws and assumptions are incorrect, that if broken down into its tinniest parts, there is no reality just possibility etc., but that doesn't mean that the very basic assumptions about the universe in bigger scales are incorrect or more importantly aren't useful.
The ones I make:
"The universe is real and we can learn something about it." has proven to be ultimately more useful (in combination with scientific naturalism) than the somewhat nihilistic approach of "everything is an illusion".

There is a philosophical argument to be made for sure, but I hope you get my more pragmatic approach. It is an interesting topic though and if you disagree or like to deepen it, I'm looking forward to your reply.


I haven't seen the other videos yet, but I have seen many many TED Talks, most are excellent. Challenging materialism - interesting.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Thanks for the first link. I will watch the other ones later.
Quantum Physics is indeed an interesting and somewhat mind-blowing field.

First of all, it is good to see your interest in these subjects. I can tell you from my experience that until a person understands, or more properly realizes these fundamental notions of existence, his journey remains totally unfulfilled.

However this "reality is an illusion" statement in my opinion shouldn't be made into more than what it really means. These kinds of videos sometimes border on mysticism and pseudoscience, especially if combined with 'Superstring theory' and the glorification of the unsolved puzzle of consciousness. Especially the end of the first video is more esoteric (and there is nothing wrong with that in principle, it is just not clearly differentiated from the science) I would argue. Especially because of the way that it is cut together.

I agree, but that is the fault of looking at this world through the eyes of science and science alone. If you do go into depths of quantum physics, undoubtedly it draws you to the conclusion that the reality is illusion and it cannot be otherwise. But is it? The important question to ask is whether we even realize what reality is? If not, how can then we judge what is real and what is not? If I put it very simply, reality is simply out of our scope. It is way too big for us. The scientists always have to measure everything, calculate everything, and make everything decisive and concrete as matter itself. Science is at fault here, because it cannot take into account the aspects of reality which are more elementary and more vital. Of course, my finger is towards consciousness when I say that - but even other than that there is intellectuality that science does not takes into account - that which compels us to seek the various purpose of life that we envision and also those that we choose to ignore, and even those which we do not yet realize.

Reality is way too big for us to handle until we decide to choose the only path that can make us realize that. But for now, I am not going to discuss what this path is.

If you break things down to the very small scale, it might be true that our laws and assumptions are incorrect, that if broken down into its tinniest parts, there is no reality just possibility etc., but that doesn't mean that the very basic assumptions about the universe in bigger scales are incorrect or more importantly aren't useful.
The ones I make:
"The universe is real and we can learn something about it." has proven to be ultimately more useful (in combination with scientific naturalism) than the somewhat nihilistic approach of "everything is an illusion".

Both approach are naive - that is you cannot say that the world is definite and you also cannot say that it is what we "feel" it is. A very simple way to understand this is that there is a place and purpose for everything. The laws of classical physics are as undeniable as the fact that there remains no such law at the subatomic level. Similarly Dirac's negative energy sea is also an undeniable fact, although I doubt we can ever scientifically prove it, yet alone "sense" it.

Your approach to this world should never be confined, until there is a valid purpose to fulfill that requires definite path. And hence God made this world as definite as is required for us to fulfill our purposes.

There is a philosophical argument to be made for sure, but I hope you get my more pragmatic approach. It is an interesting topic though and if you disagree or like to deepen it, I'm looking forward to your reply.

As I said, your approach must befit the situation at hand. A pragmatic approach to understand the world through quantum physics is not enough, you have to create more dimensions to your thinking.

One very important thing that I would like to mention is that, quantum physics, contradictory to creating some God-like status of science, actually augurs the downfall of science and also of our five senses by pointing to their horizon.

BTW, do read two books I recommend, both by Paul Davies (an astute atheist, and a remarkable physicist and author), these are - The Other Worlds & The Mind of God. Actually, also read God & the other Physics, before you read these two.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

One more thing to mention, please do not think that I in anyway mean to undermine the significance of science and the journey it still has to cover.

 

[Unbeliever]

I watched the videos by the professor and they are interesting, I especially liked his definition of spirituality as something you tag along with as long as it feels right and helps you personally. Other than Religion which is a prison for the mind, I can see the good of spirituality, although I don't really feel a need for it right now. I also agree that consumerism is not enough to fill the spiritual gap that many secular people encounter. But sex, laughter, philosophy and Art are quit able to fill it, in my humble opinion. You could probably even argue that these activities have some 'spiritual' quality to them.

I don't really know if I completely follow what you want to say in the post then though.
Is your point that there are phanomenon that in our lifetime or indeed ever might not be fully understood by science? Sure. But if so what makes you think spirituality (just thinking/feeling/meditating) on them will help?
And do you not think what we perceive is the best and most meaningful input we have on what reality is?

Another thing the professor seems to miss is: Science is a toolbox, a number of methods and a number of guiding principles that can be applied to find out more about the workings of non-"material" (or maybe rather sub-atomic) things as well. I mean after all Quantum Physics IS science and the only way to learn more about it is to study science.. namely physics. So I don't really see why science has failed or hit its limit just because what it discovered is hard to grasp right now and mind-boggling even for many scientists.

I'm wondering if you consider things that science can not (yet) explain, 'supernatural' or if you are just trying to say that scientific naturalism is not sufficient as a guiding principle in life. If it is the later, I agree, that is what philosophy and spirituality (respectively: logical and emotional self-reflection) is for.
Or what is spirituality to you?

 

[Luftwaffe]

I'm sure you will avoid this video if you're neutral watch this..

 

[Valiant_Soul]

I watched the videos by the professor and they are interesting, I especially liked his definition of spirituality as something you tag along with as long as it feels right and helps you personally. Other than Religion which is a prison for the mind, I can see the good of spirituality, although I don't really feel a need for it right now. I also agree that consumerism is not enough to fill the spiritual gap that many secular people encounter. But sex, laughter, philosophy and Art are quit able to fill it, in my humble opinion. You could probably even argue that these activities have some 'spiritual' quality to them.

Responding to your last statement first:
I would be rather repetitive if I tell you that you should continue with whatever works for you. It is like wasting your woods in the summer and keeping nothing for the winter. When you have the opportunity, it is better to utilize it.

Now, keeping in mind your state of mind about religion (I often refrain from using this word, what you term as religion is what I prefer to call "the way of life"), it is my sincere advice that you should thrive to achieve a neutral perspective, and check the other side of the opinion with the same positivity as you advocate the side on which you stand.

There is another point that requires special mention. Liberation requires binding. What people often misconstrue is that the meaning of freedom is freedom from all kinds of regulations. But the truth is that for a person to be truly free, he requires to be under self-regulation based on some guidelines laid down for living the life. The stricter this self-regulation is, the more freedom he achieves, and that freedom cannot be defined in words. It is the ultimate kind of freedom, in which even though the person remains under the natural confinements, he can no longer be binded.

I don't really know if I completely follow what you want to say in the post then though.

If you are unsure, do re-read. I would tell you from my experience that you would dig more and more from the same material.

Is your point that there are phanomenon that in our lifetime or indeed ever might not be fully understood by science?

There are not just phenomenon - the whole concept of reality is beyond the comprehension through our senses and hence the limit on science.

Sure. But if so what makes you think spirituality (just thinking/feeling/meditating) on them will help?

Firstly, my thoughts are not required, because what spirituality stands for and can do is already established. Secondly, spirituality is a path that you cannot ignore, no one can. It is just that some people quickly gain speed on that path and others do not. Lastly, your question itself is incorrect, as spirituality has nothing to do with knowing the physical reality of the world, although it gives definite insight on its nature which is totally in conjunction with the findings of modern physics.

And do you not think what we perceive is the best and most meaningful input we have on what reality is?

Is that what quantum physics suggest? I think you require heavy dose of it.

Another thing the professor seems to miss is: Science is a toolbox, a number of methods and a number of guiding principles that can be applied to find out more about the workings of non-"material" (or maybe rather sub-atomic) things as well. I mean after all Quantum Physics IS science and the only way to learn more about it is to study science.. namely physics. So I don't really see why science has failed or hit its limit just because what it discovered is hard to grasp right now and mind-boggling even for many scientists.

To say science has failed would be totally idiotic. It has served its purpose and is and will continue to do so. To say science has found its limit - that is just a very laymanish way of saying that there are certain things that cannot be comprehended through its application, and that is beyond doubt. I would emphasize that you read the books I suggested in the post above to get hold of what I mean to say here.

I'm wondering if you consider things that science can not (yet) explain, 'supernatural' or if you are just trying to say that scientific naturalism is not sufficient as a guiding principle in life. If it is the later, I agree, that is what philosophy and spirituality (respectively: logical and emotional self-reflection) is for.
Or what is spirituality to you?

Spirituality essentially means two things - a way to attain interminable connection of the self with everything beyond and secondly the way to the ultimate liberation of the self.