What's new

The courageous Pakistan army stand on the eastern front

The 'stories' are the 'brainwashing' - any Joe Shmo or Chatterjee can concoct tales of horror and claim that the PA did it, but that does not make those tales true.

Without vetting those claims and verifying them, those tales are just tales, especially given that the three sources mentioned above claimed 30,000 or so deaths.

You gotto be kidding me right? There's more recollections of personal experiences of Fatima, Abdul, Majid, Latif than any tales of Chaterjee, Banerjee, Bose, Roy, Sens! But off-course you'd believe PA troopers confession more than them, right?

And trust me it's not only the killing or raping but the mediaeval ways they have been killed and raped, make the tales more horrifying.

Without substantiation of claims, the 'rest of the world' is obviously not believing 'facts'. And instead of merely engaging in ad hominems against Bose, try to refute her claims. Merely resorting to attacking her character only indicates the moral bankruptcy and desperation to perpetuate lies and propaganda about the events in 1971 by people like yourself.

Ms Bose, doing a field research sitting there in USA and using same method as used by Hamidur Commission, is an example of intellectual bankruptcy than anything else.

As far as refuting her claim is concerned, please refer to post below.
 
Last edited:
.
Debunking Ms Bose's field research on Bangladesh Liberation War!

Following up on her 2005 paper denying the extent of the 1971 genocide published in the Economic and Political Weekly, Sarmila Bose has now published a paper denying the extent of the rapes of Bangladeshi women by the Pakistan army and the Razakars. In her paper entitled "Losing the Victims: Problems of Using Women as Weapons in Recounting the Bangladesh War" she states in the introduction:

That rape occurred in East Pakistan in 1971 has never been in any doubt. The question is what was the true extent of rape, who were the victims and who the perpetrators and was there any systematic policy of rape by any party, as opposed to opportunistic sexual crimes in times of war.

At the very beginning of her paper, she lays down the two tactics familiar to all genocide deniers: she questions the extent of the rape and questions whether there was any systematic policy of rape. Ms. Bose argues that claiming "hundreds of thousands" were raped trivializes "the possibly several thousand true rape victims" of the war. She however does not offer a good explanation as to how she reached the "several thousand" number other than saying that so many rapes would not be possible by the size of the Pakistani army in 1971. She also, unsurprisingly, quotes the passage from the Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report that I cited above to support her assertion that so many rapes could not have occured.

To try to bolster her argument that the Pakistani forces in Bangladesh could not have raped so many women, she claims:

The number of West Pakistani armed forces personnel in East Pakistan was about 20,000 at the beginning of the conflict, rising to 34,000 by December. Another 11,000 men – civil police and non-combat personnel – also held arms.

…

For an army of 34,000 to rape on this scale in eight or nine months (while fighting insurgency, guerrilla war and an invasion by India), each would-be perpetrator would have had to commit rape at an incredible rate.

The actual number of Pakistani forces at the end of the war, and taken POW by the Indians, was 90,368, including over 54,000 army and 22,000 paramilitary forces. It is not unreasonable to conclude that a force of 90,000 could rape between 200,000 to 400,000 women in the space of nine months. Even if only 10% of the force raped only one woman each in nine months, the number of rapes are well over "several thousand" claimed by Ms. Bose. Since Ms. Bose does the math in her paper, I will do the macabre calculation for the total force here. To rape 200,000 Bangladeshi women a Pakistani force of 90,000 would have to rape 2 to 3 women each in nine months. Not only is this scale of atrocity possible by an army engaged in a systematic campaign of genocide, it also has parallels in other modern conflicts (for example, the rape of between 250,000 to 500,000 women in Rwanda within 100 days).

Ms. Bose also paints a picture of the Pakistani military as a disciplined force that spared women and children. She writes:

During my field research on several incidents in East Pakistan during 1971, Bangladeshi participants and eyewitnesses described battles, raids, massacres and executions, but told me that women were not harmed by the army in these events except by chance such as in crossfire. The pattern that emerged from these incidents was that the Pakistan army targeted adult males while sparing women and children.

However, her field research is contradicted by all available evidence. From the early days of the war, women and girls were targeted for rape and killed. On March 30, 1971 the American Consul General in Dhaka, Archer Blood, sent a telegram to the State Department recounting the Pakistani atrocities in Dhaka. In it he wrote:

Major atrocity recounted to him took place at [R]okeya Girls’ Hall, where building set ablaze and girls machine-gunned as they fled building. (USIS local who lives nearby confirms girls gunned down.) Girls had no weapons, forty killed. Attacks aimed at eliminating female student leadership, since army apparently told girl student activists resided there. Estimated 1,000 persons, mostly students, but including faculty members resident in dorms, killed.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB4.pdf

On March 31, 1971 Archer Blood sent another telegram which contained the following chilling account:

Atrocity rales rampant, including those of reliable eyewitnesses. Bengali businessman not AL supporter saw six naked female bodies at Rokeya Hall, Dacca U. Feet tied together. Bits of rope hanging from ceiling fans. Apparently raped, shot and hung by their heels from fans. Workmen forced to dig mass graves at Dacca U. Report 140 buried within. Other graves equally as large. Japanese report they told 400 killed there.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB6.pdf

The reports from the American Embassy in Dhaka give us a small window into the systematic killing spree that was Operation Searchlight, the code name the Pakistani army gave to the first stage of the genocide operation.

Ms. Bose continues to paint the Pakistan military as a disciplined force not capable of systematic rape. She cited a memo written by the Pakistani general leading the army in its campaign, General Niazi, who reminds his officers that they have a "code of honor" and as "gentlemen and officers" they should abide by it. She then writes that Pakistani officers she spoke to were "indignant" at charges of large-scale rape and claimed these charges are false:

During my research, some Pakistan army officers who had then been junior officers serving in East Pakistan, told me of occasional opportunistic cases of rape or attempted rape by army personnel, such as when on patrolling duty. Usually, the accused soldier was put through the army’s disciplinary process and jailed if found guilty. In some cases officers on the field meted out exemplary punishments themselves – such as thrashing the offender in front of other troops and locals.13 Officers reporting the occasional cases were indignant at the accusations of large-scale rape, which they said were false.

Ms. Bose follows a similar pattern throughout her paper. She gives credence to the stories told to her by the Pakistani military, the perpetrators of the rapes, and dismisses as "alleged" and not credible the accounts of the rape victims. However, contemporaneous news reports from 1971 tell a different story. For example, an October 25, 1971 Time Magazine article detailing the Pakistani military atrocities reports on women and girls held captive and raped at Pakistani military headquarters in Dhaka:

One of the more horrible revelations concerns 563 young Bengali women, some only 18, who have been held captive inside Dacca’s dingy military cantonment since the first days of the fighting. Seized from Dacca University and private homes and forced into military brothels, the girls are all three to five months pregnant. The army is reported to have enlisted Bengali gynecologists to abort girls held at military installations. But for those at the Dacca cantonment it is too late for abortion. The military has begun freeing the girls a few at a time, still carrying the babies of Pakistani soldiers.

The World: East Pakistan: Even the Skies Weep - TIME

Among the countless other reports of systematic rape by the Pakistani army is this report(http://www.docstrangelove.com/uploads/19710801_nyt.pdf) from August 1, 1971 that appeared in the New York Times. It details interviews with some of the 10 million Bengali refugees that fled to India to escape the Pakistani army’s brutality.

Having portrayed the Pakistani military as a benevolent force, Ms. Bose then attempts to discredit a handful of accounts of rape victims as a way of casting doubt on the rapes committed during the 1971 genocide.

She begins by trying to cast doubt on an eyewitness to rape named Rabeya Khatun who she dismisses as illiterate:

She is illiterate, as her signature is a ‘tip-sohi’ or finger imprint. Khatun, therefore, is not in a position to verify what is written in her name.

Ms. Bose then dismisses accounts of two other corroborating witnesses because their testimony is similar to hers and they too are illiterate:
Indeed, the language in this part of the statement is strikingly similar to the statement of Rabeya Khatun’s, raising the possibility that the same person wrote the two testimonies. The language is not what would be used either by illiterate sweepers or by educated Bengalis in everyday conversation.


She then finds refuge in the account of a Pakistani Lt. Colonel Taj who, unsurprisingly, "categorically denied that any molestation of women had taken place at Rajarbag by his men." Ms. Bose then informs us Lt. Col. Taj was not actually present at Rajarbag after the first night of military action. Yet, she felt the need to inject him as a fact witness. Then she dismisses Ms. Khatun’s account as "highly dubious":
Still, the account given by Rabeya Khatun is highly dubious. Being a busy police headquarters in the capital city, whatever happened at Rajarbag would have had many witnesses. It is quite possible that sexual violence occurred at Rajarbag – police stations across south Asia are notorious for such offences, but until and unless other, credible witnesses come forward, the hellish account attributed to one illiterate woman simply will not suffice.

It is one of the tragedies of the Third World and of Bangladesh that a large portion of the population is illiterate. However, the Pakistani military did not discriminate between illiterate and literate classes in its campaign of killings and rape.

Ms. Bose then tries to cast doubt on the account of rape victim Ferdousi Priyabhashini, an educated woman and well-known sculptor. Ms. Bose’s argument here is somewhat muddled, but it appears that she is claiming that Mrs. Priyabhashini was less of a rape victim and more of a willing participant. Ms. Bose writes, "It is highly unusual for someone of her background to admit to have been a rape victim, especially in the conservative societies like Bangladesh." Ms. Bose goes on, "According to her own account, in 1971, Ferdousi Priyabhashini was a mature woman, a divorced mother of three, working for many years." After a muddled discussion of Mrs. Priyabhashini’s account of rape by Pakistani soldiers, Ms. Bose concludes:

A final inconsistency in Ferdousi’s account is that as the Indian army and Bangladeshi freedom fighters approached Dhaka, she was warned by a non-Bengali clerk in her office that she would be killed and should flee. Ferdousi makes much of the threat to her life – but as Bangladesh became independent, only those who were perceived to have willingly fraternised with the Pakistani regime were at risk of the wrath of freedom fighters, not victims of the regime.

I gather Ms. Bose is asserting that since Mrs. Priyabhashini feared for her life, she must have consented to having sex with Pakistani soldiers. I think even a rudamentary understanding of the effect of rape(Effects and aftermath of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) on the victim casts doubt on Ms. Bose’s argument.

Ms. Bose goes on to try to cast doubt on the account of Akhtaruzzaman Mandal who was a freedom fighter who accompanied Indian soldiers as they took control of a Pakistani position and took 30 to 40 Pakistani soldiers captive. There Mr. Mandal states that he saw the dead body of the Pakistani Captain in charge lying beside a dead Bengali woman who showed signs of rape. Mr. Mandal also states that four naked women were discovered locked in a building and one of the women was six months pregnant. Another 16 women were also discovered locked in an adjacent high school, some showing signs of torture.

In discounting Mr. Mandal’s account, Ms. Bose writes that she interviewed two Pakistani officers who told her that only four or five soldiers had been captured. One of the Pakistani soldiers said that dead Captain was "humane" and had only recently arrived at the location. She writes:
The picture painted of Captain Ataullah by this fellow officer,who knew him, completely contradicts the one given by Mandal, who appears to have only seen his dead body. Clearly, if Captain Ataullah had been based in Nageshwari and only gone up to Bhurungamari the day that the Indian attack started, he could not have been responsible for whatever might have been going on in Bhurungamari. Mandal offers no corroborating evidence for his character assassination of an officer who had died defending his country, and therefore, cannot speak in his own defence.

Ms. Bose once again is ready to accept the word of the Pakistani soldiers, the perpetrators of rape. There are many cases of rapists(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Chambers_(killer)) in this world who appear to be "humane" to those who know them.

In critiquing accounts of seven rape victims describes in Neelima Ibrahim’s book Ami Birangona Bolchhi, Ms. Bose notes that four of the seven women were abducted by Bengalis and one by a Bihari before being handed over to the Pakistani army. Some of the women were raped by their initial abductors before being handed over to the Pakistani army to be held in barracks and raped. Ms. Bose neglects to mention that those who abducted the women were local collaborators, or Razakars, working with the Pakistani military. Nonetheless, she makes this bizarre observation:

The allegation that the army maintained “comfort women” – even if the numbers were nowhere close to Bangladeshi claims – is a serious charge and merits further inquiry. However, Ibrahim’s book reveals that in most cases the abductors and rapists of Bengali women were Bengali men, who later passed them on to the military.For the majority of these women, therefore, even if the Pakistan army had done nothing, they would still be rape victims.

The point of course is that the Pakistani army had done something - they had raped these women. I feel compelled to make the obvious point that in a gang rape situation, all rapists are considered rapists and are culpable, not just the first one. In another attempt to humanize the rapists, Ms. Bose writes of one rape victim in Neelima Ibrahim’s book who went to Pakistan and married her rapists. Ms. Bose then points out that the rape victim then "had a son by her Pathan husband in Pakistan. When the son grew up, he joined the Pakistan army."

In this latest paper Sarmila Bose tries mightily to diminish the atrocities committed by the Pakistani military in 1971. She, however, offers very little of substance to back up her assertion that the existing research and documentation of the 1971 genocide overestimates the death toll and the rapes. Her claim that, in her words, the "unsubstantiated and implausible" claims of hundreds of thousands of rape victims distracts attention from the "true rape victims" and "insult the true victims by trivialising their suffering" is itself an insult to the victims of rape in Bangladesh. The number of rape victims does not diminish the suffering of any individual rape victim; the vast number of rapes only demonstrates the heinous magnitude of the Pakistani campaign. If there is any insult, the insult lies in not acknowledging all the victims of the Pakistani army’s rapes by trying to dehumanize the rape victims further by asserting that these rapes did not take place.

In her attempt at denial she relies on the Pakistan government’s report on the atrocities and the accounts of Pakistani soldiers. She overlooks news reports(http://www.docstrangelove.com/uploads/19720723_nyt.pdf) from the time, eyewitness accounts, academic works and case studies. In the end, her paper is neither scholarly nor neutral. It is an apologia for the Pakistan army and for the genocide it perpetrated against the Bangladeshi people in 1971.

http://www.docstrangelove.com/2007/10/09/the-continuing-rape-of-bangladesh/
 
Last edited:
.
A note to Agno: So far I couldn't find a single claim by Ms Bose regarding the number of causalities. So the only source you have cited to back up your claim of 30,000 causalities is that of Hamidur Commission report.
 
.
So far all your claim is based on two sources only.

1. Hamidur Commission Report
2. Ms Bose article(pardon me for not calling it research).

Both of them mean nought for various reasons as posted above and post #45.

Show me an official Bangladeshi statement which says the causalities were 30,000.

I however for the sake of debate didn't post any Indian or Bangladeshi sources but derived my conclusion based on -

Gendercide Watch ( Gendercide Watch: Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971),

Estimation as done by R.J. Rummel (STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE)

Books by Susan Brownmiller(Amazon.com: Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape (9780449908204): Susan Brownmiller: Books)
Actually there are three sources I have pointed out for the casualty figures:

1. The claims received by the Bangladesh government's program to compensate victims of the war (as indicated in Mujib's own communication pointed out by kakgeta - 30,000)

2. The estimates made by the HR Commission on the basis of interviews with military and civilian officials and analysis of field reports submitted by the Pakistani military units operating in East Pakistan.

3. The estimates arrived at in a conference organized by the US Dept. of State with Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indian scholars and representatives, based on declassified US documents related to the 1971 war.

In each of those cases hard evidence was used to arrive at casualty estimates, no guesstimation and anecdotal accounts, as is the case with the links you provided. I did not use figures provided by Bose, but did use her articles and research to point out that there was insurgent/terrorist violence and atrocities preceding the PA crackdown, and that lies about massacres committed by the EP insurgents/terrorists were propagated to blame the PA.

I have also used here arguments to illustrate why the figures typically quoted about the casualty numbers during the 1971 war are suspect and speculative, rather than fact based.

Please post here the methodology and sources used by the links you quoted to arrive at the figures they mention.
 
.
You gotto be kidding me right? There's more recollections of personal experiences of Fatima, Abdul, Majid, Latif than any tales of Chaterjee, Banerjee, Bose, Roy, Sens! But off-course you'd believe PA troopers confession more than them, right?

And trust me it's not only the killing or raping but the mediaeval ways they have been killed and raped, make the tales more horrifying.
Point being that anyone can concoct horrifying tales, Stephen King does an amazing job as well. That does not make those tales true. Only a proper and neutral vetting and verification and total count of such tales could result in establishing their legitimacy - otherwise they are just 'stories'.

Ms Bose, doing a field research sitting there in USA and using same method as used by Hamidur Commission, is an example of intellectual bankruptcy than anything else.

As far as refuting her claim is concerned, please refer to post below.
Intellectual bankruptcy is not verifying any of those claimed 'accounts in literature' and properly compiling them and counting them. Bose has in fact stuck to verifiable accounts and facts, unlike what you lot are advocating.
 
.
I also recall the first Gulf War, when the claim was made that Iraqi soldiers had murdered premature kids, by throwing them out of incubators, it was proved after the war, that this was false.

Also in the first world war, there were propaganda claims that German soldiers had raped some nuns. That also was false.

All the information I have seen indicates a total of 30,000 that is still high, and every person had a family etc. There was investigations carried out by various countries, which also came to the conclusion, that though this was a vicious counter-insurgency operation, with excesses committed by both sides. THIS WAS NOT A GENOCIDE, ie Pakistan Armed Forces were not trying to wipe out, the whole Bangladeshi people.

But since most of the alleged perpetrators were POW's, if this was true - why did the indians and the Bengali's not open a war crimes commission.

And Ms Bose does deserve a massive thank you from the Pakistani nation - and her Armed Forces - for rescuing it's reputation and honour:)
 
.
Actually there are three sources I have pointed out for the casualty figures:

1. The claims received by the Bangladesh government's program to compensate victims of the war (as indicated in Mujib's own communication pointed out by kakgeta - 30,000)

Kakgeta didn't provide a source, he named a book which I'm trying to get my hand at.

But how a claim of compensation refers to number deaths? That's not the number of deads, how do you compensate deads? Seems it's compensation for living family member of deads. Now in most cases, there would be more than one killed in a family, and many family even total village would be totally wiped out so there'd noone to compensate at all!

2. The estimates made by the HR Commission on the basis of interviews with military and civilian officials and analysis of field reports submitted by the Pakistani military units operating in East Pakistan.

That's a unreliable source and the whole commission was a farce. So it'd be appreciated not using that source to churn out numbers.

3. The estimates arrived at in a conference organized by the US Dept. of State with Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indian scholars and representatives, based on declassified US documents related to the 1971 war.


Any citation for this? Who are all these scholars and what method did they follow. I have an uncanny feeling of finding out Ms Bose's name there!

In each of those cases hard evidence was used to arrive at casualty estimates, no guesstimation and anecdotal accounts, as is the case with the links you provided. I did not use figures provided by Bose, but did use her articles and research to point out that there was insurgent/terrorist violence and atrocities preceding the PA crackdown, and that lies about massacres committed by the EP insurgents/terrorists were propagated to blame the PA.

I have also used here arguments to illustrate why the figures typically quoted about the casualty numbers during the 1971 war are suspect and speculative, rather than fact based.

Please post here the methodology and sources used by the links you quoted to arrive at the figures they mention.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating the fable argument of guesstimation, when I already provided you links where it's explained in detail with tabular data as to how they came to conclusion about number of persons killed.
 
.
That period of history is closed, there is no international or legal case for Pakistan to answer, Musharraf's assertion of regret - is the final chapter to this story, indians need to get over it, it is done and dusted.
 
.
Point being that anyone can concoct horrifying tales, Stephen King does an amazing job as well. That does not make those tales true. Only a proper and neutral vetting and verification and total count of such tales could result in establishing their legitimacy - otherwise they are just 'stories'.

Point being, they are not concocting tales but recollecting their personal experience.

It's upto you whether or not you'd take those as truth(though, you seem to take PA trooper's testimony as truth and verified and vetted fact), but it's hard to imagine anyone in subcontinent would cook up a tale of rape when there's no monetary or other benefit to achieve.

Intellectual bankruptcy is not verifying any of those claimed 'accounts in literature' and properly compiling them and counting them. Bose has in fact stuck to verifiable accounts and facts, unlike what you lot are advocating.

Verifiable accounts and facts as in HC Commission and what PA soldiers told her?

A detailed analysis of Ms Bose research already is posted, any thoughts about that?
 
.
How come indians are more concerned about this matter than our Bangladeshi friends - this happened nearly 40 years a go, it was not a genocide, there is no international tribunal at the Hague, waiting for Pakistani soldiers or officers - and if one was attempted, the US, China - would veto it. :)
 
.
And Ms Bose's credentials are impeccable, and also because she is the grand daughter of Chandra Bose - adds to to her credibility.:) She is a noted intellectual and she has exposed the "myth" of the genocide.
 
.
Kakgeta didn't provide a source, he named a book which I'm trying to get my hand at.
He provided a source and the claim made in that source. Verification is up to you.
But how a claim of compensation refers to number deaths? That's not the number of deads, how do you compensate deads? Seems it's compensation for living family member of deads. Now in most cases, there would be more than one killed in a family, and many family even total village would be totally wiped out so there'd noone to compensate at all!
Then the Bangladesh government should have carried through with that program and compiled how many total dead there were, and how many were killed by the Mukti Bahini and other insurgents/terrorists. Given that claimants (family members) would have included those with dead on both sides, the 30,000 number seems reasonable, especially since it roughly matches the estimates by the HR Commission and the experts invited by the US State Dept.
That's a unreliable source and the whole commission was a farce. So it'd be appreciated not using that source to churn out numbers.
It is not unreliable at all given that the HR Commission was scathing in its treatment of the actions undertaken by the military and government in EP. It also based its estimates of casualties on solid evidence, not speculation and guesstimates. Finally, their estimates match those of Mujib and the experts at the State Dept. conference.

Any citation for this? Who are all these scholars and what method did they follow. I have an uncanny feeling of finding out Ms Bose's name there!
The article was posted earlier - perhaps you should actually read the posts.
I'm not sure why you keep repeating the fable argument of guesstimation, when I already provided you links where it's explained in detail with tabular data as to how they came to conclusion about number of persons killed.
I am calling it 'guesstimation' since none of the sources you provided offer a methodology based on credible verification and tabulation of the various accounts/stories of the affected people. None of them actually verified and compiled '300,000 to 3 million accounts of death at the hands of the PA'. If they did, please point me to where that was done, since my reading of both sources shows no such effort.

Rummel'e methodology is ludicrous - all he does is takes all the 'estimates' of casualties out there (verifies none of them) and comes up with his own statistical 'average' essentially.
 
.
Point being, they are not concocting tales but recollecting their personal experience.

It's upto you whether or not you'd take those as truth(though, you seem to take PA trooper's testimony as truth and verified and vetted fact), but it's hard to imagine anyone in subcontinent would cook up a tale of rape when there's no monetary or other benefit to achieve.
How do I know whether the 'tales' are true or not, or whether they are even from actual 'victims' and not merely embellishments by the authors? That is where vetting and verification comes into play. You contact the people who are alleged to be making these claims and verify them. Without that any individual can right a book and concoct stories of 'a thousand people who shared their stories with him', and claim that they are true.
Verifiable accounts and facts as in HC Commission and what PA soldiers told her?

A detailed analysis of Ms Bose research already is posted, any thoughts about that?
Yes, field reports filed by the military units on the ground. These same reports are what resulted in the 50,000 casualty count in the report, so obviously the units were reporting back on casualties during combat, and in some cases would have claimed innocents killed as insurgents as well, to show that they were effectively dealing with the insurgency.

The analysis on Ms Bose arguments does not offer any evidence supporting either the hundreds of thousands raped numbers nor does it provide evidence supporting the genocide claims. The fact remains that no orders from the military high command calling for systematic rape and elimination of ethnic groups were found, and all officers interviewed have denied any such policy. Were such a policy of systematic atrocities in place, there would be some evidence of official directives to that effect.

Now this is not to suggest that atrocities did not take place, discipline did break down and rapes and murders did occur, but there is nothing to support the astronomical numbers being claimed or the 'policy of systematic rape and genocide by the PA' claims.
 
.
I am surprised that no one accounts for the similarity with the Vietnam conflict..
Compared to that.. this was a no-win situation.. and considering all the conduct reports by innocents,combatants..I would say if anything.. the conduct of PA was much better than what should have been expected considering that their leaders were hell bent with genocidal ideas as a last revenge for the "betrayal" by their "bhooka Bingo(no offense..using the term those men used for effect)".
In most cases..PA units were under equipped..and still managed more with their meagre numbers and almost no tech.. compared to the Americans in Vietnam.
As for the conduct of officers..and Genocide reports..it varies accross the field..
and largely depended on the commanders.
Ill cite a personal eg. My mothers uncle was a merchant captain who frequented Chittagong during the early months of 71.
He recounts that on one occasion.. an army major ..asked a poor man walking accross the compound gate.. under gunpoint if he was an Indian agent.. and ..then for sport.. asked my relative to watch..and had this poor fellow climb a cocnot tree..then shot him while relating the thing to hunting a monkey.

Contrastingly.. another commander from a different regiment.. Even after two of his officers wives were assaulted by the Mukti bahni.. refused to go after the population...and intevened when one soldier tried to shoot the local population under rage...citing in front of all.. "they are our family".

71 was a tragedy undoubtedly...but it seems even ten hamood ur rehman's cannot disclose the truth ...and no nitpicking Indian or Bengali journalist can either.
What does matter.. is condemning what happened..seeking apologies..and moving on.. instead of argueing the matter..from a standpoint of comfort..not realising what horrors..those women that were raped endured....and what rage those men felt..to see their comerades butchered and mutliated.
Suprisingly though...nine of ten times...in all of these online interactions..71 is not mentioned by Bengali's.. who truly suffered those 26 years of bias and neglect..but rather by Indians..wonder what the motivation there is.

In any case.. from all my family that was present in 71 during the war in Bangladesh.. they are usually all praise for the IA officers from the punjab,the southern areas...one even owes his life to an IA officer who protected him..and got him out on a transport out of Dhaka in all the chaos.
Others.. remember the IA with contempt.. especially those from UP.. who watched with glee as the Mukti bahni commited equally repulisve brutalities against the POW's.

Yet.. out of 71..
Only the Indians learned their lessons of war..
 
.
He provided a source and the claim made in that source. Verification is up to you.

Then the Bangladesh government should have carried through with that program and compiled how many total dead there were, and how many were killed by the Mukti Bahini and other insurgents/terrorists. Given that claimants (family members) would have included those with dead on both sides, the 30,000 number seems reasonable, especially since it roughly matches the estimates by the HR Commission and the experts invited by the US State Dept.

They probably should have, but it fails to qualify as a credible source as they didn't. The onus is on you to disprove the genocidal claim, not the other way around.
It is not unreliable at all given that the HR Commission was scathing in its treatment of the actions undertaken by the military and government in EP. It also based its estimates of casualties on solid evidence, not speculation and guesstimates. Finally, their estimates match those of Mujib and the experts at the State Dept. conference.

Haven't we already done with this exercise? The point remains HC commission didn't even visited Bangladesh or interviewed a single victim. How hard is it to understand?

The article was posted earlier - perhaps you should actually read the posts.

I read the posts but didn't think you'd come up with a unofficial invitation based seminar where they didn't reach a decision on consensus as credible source!!

First of all Bangladeshi scholars claimed the death toll was close to 300,000, not 30,000.

The only Indian scholar named in the article, unsurprisingly, Ms Bose. That left us to Pakistani scholars, and last but not the least ..

Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.

It doesn't account as a different source when it is, just as Ms Bose, using HR commission report to churn out the number.

I am calling it 'guesstimation' since none of the sources you provided offer a methodology based on credible verification and tabulation of the various accounts/stories of the affected people. None of them actually verified and compiled '300,000 to 3 million accounts of death at the hands of the PA'. If they did, please point me to where that was done, since my reading of both sources shows no such effort.

Rummel'e methodology is ludicrous - all he does is takes all the 'estimates' of casualties out there (verifies none of them) and comes up with his own statistical 'average' essentially.

It all depends on your and mine perception of verified sources. Pardon me, for not taking testimony of those, who are blamed of raping and murdering, as verified source.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom