The clock is ticking for USA....

[sunny001]

Even in China's authoritarian government, there are fractions among the CCP. There are even many debates and conflicts within the Polibureau itself. No one is forcing anyone to think in certain way. People always hold different ideas, but just some times when people try to act out some of their ideas that will jeapodize the government stability, then there will be trouble.

Authoritarianism does not apply in the fields of academical science and engineering, as there will not be any threats to the legitimacy of the government, so there is not restrain. There is no any evidence that can prove that there is correlation between innovations and the system of government. Remember USSR? They had much rigid authoritarian government system than China has right now, and yet during their regime there were many innovations in many fields from USSR.

But what happened to USSR now. When compared to US, a democracy, what is its position now even in terms of innovation? Don't get me wrong, I want China to succeed too as much as you do. China, recently has been inspiration to many a asian countries, and I hope it leads the way in this too. It can only good for the world when a country with 1.3 billion population succeed. But I just think it's little harder in authoritative states to lead in innovation but it's definitely not impossible. China has been first in many a things, it could be in this too.

My only problem with china is that it has been supporting a lot of authoritarian states like North Korea, Iran. It's not right to support a government that suppress people's voice, also in which average chinese has no say.

 

[sunny001]

Innovation has nothing to do with democracy, The Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan etc.... all managed to innovate technologies that were superior to their democratic counterparts.

All of the above mentioned governments had suppressed their people and were involved in expansionist policies. All at one point of time, looked to become dominant powers of the world. But, at the end what happened to all of them. There will be civil unrest at some point, when decisions taken by government does not concur with sentiments of people involved. China, has not yet seen this because there has been so much of development in their country. It won't be the norm for ever.

It is as if like Chinese have resented to fact that authoritarian government is the only way to prosperity for their country. India,could prove it wrong. May be not as rapid as China, eventually it will.

Innovation wise, I might be wrong, authoritarian governments could be as efficient as democracies. But I definitely read that research paper, I cannot remember the name. I would look for it.

 

[chauism]

But what happened to USSR now. When compared to US, a democracy, what is its position now even in terms of innovation? Don't get me wrong, I want China to succeed too as much as you do. China, recently has been inspiration to many a asian countries, and I hope it leads the way in this too. It can only good for the world when a country with 1.3 billion population succeed. But I just think it's little harder in authoritative states to lead in innovation but it's definitely not impossible. China has been first in many a things, it could be in this too.

My only problem with china is that it has been supporting a lot of authoritarian states like North Korea, Iran. It's not right to support a government that suppress people's voice, also in which average chinese has no say.

There was a debate about democracy before, if you are interested in.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/26830-indian-democracy-loses-chinese-efficiency-160-votes.html

As for China supporting North Korea, it is because China has to, not because it wants to. I think China will stop supporting DPRK as soon as US leaves the west side of pacific.

As for Iran, China is not supporting Iran to have a nuclear weapon, but at same time is not too wild about US's aggressive stance towards it.

 

[CardSharp]

But what happened to USSR now. When compared to US, a democracy, what is its position now even in terms of innovation?

You think the USSR collapsed because it wasn't inventive enough? Why else would you mention it? Their scientists matched the US pretty much in all areas of weapons, space, nuclear technology, all while working under a authoritarian government.

My only problem with china is that it has been supporting a lot of authoritarian states like North Korea, Iran. It's not right to support a government that suppress people's voice, also in which average chinese has no say.

Too many people in the US and elsewhere misconstrue China's doing business with Sudan, Iran etc with China being political friends with them. China is not America, it doesn't put it upon itself to manipulate the world. It doesn't force you to act like them in order to do business.

Business is business, it is a mutually beneficial financial agreement, nothing else.


(as for North Korea? sigh...that's a whole different kettle of fish)

 

[sunny001]

There was a debate about democracy before, if you are interested in.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/26830-indian-democracy-loses-chinese-efficiency-160-votes.html

As for China supporting North Korea, it is because China has to, not because it wants to. I think China will stop supporting DPRK as soon as US leaves the west side of pacific.

As for Iran, China is not supporting Iran to have a nuclear weapon, but at same time is not too wild about US's aggressive stance towards it.

Yes, you didn't answer why it's opposing US. Is it because it's a democracy? You and I well know that US cannot wage a war against China, so it cannot be about this insecurity.

My point is it's Chinese authoritarian government that is deciding, not average chinese like you and others. Although you seem to support your government's stance. I refuse to believe that everyone in China are like you. If you could answer me whether chinese people want to be ruled and want to be helping governments to rule people against their will?

 

[sunny001]

You think the USSR collapsed because it wasn't inventive enough? Why else would you mention it? Their scientists matched the US pretty much in all areas of weapons, space, nuclear technology, all while working under a authoritarian government.





Too many people in the US and elsewhere misconstrue China's doing business with Sudan, Iran etc with China being political friends with them. China is not America, it doesn't put it upon itself to manipulate the world. It doesn't force you to act like them in order to do business.

Business is business, it is a mutually beneficial financial agreement, nothing else.


(as for North Korea? sigh...that's a whole different kettle of fish)

Yes Business is Business. But you could always do that business with democratic government as well. Why is china going out of it's way to support those governments with arms, vetoing in every opportunity it gets. you must be naive to believe that it's doing just for business.

It's just supporting a similar political structure that it has. But is it will of average Chinese or the people in those respective countries?

It can't be business as usual.

Regarding innovation I might be wrong. But I definitely read that paper. I study management I read so many papers, its hard to remember each and every one. Sorry, I'll try and find it. But, to put it in perspective, the paper didn't say innovation is not possible in authoritarian states, it just says it is natural in democracies.

 

[CardSharp]

Yes, you didn't answer why it's opposing US. Is it because it's a democracy? You and I well know that US cannot wage a war against China, so it cannot be about this insecurity.

My point is it's Chinese authoritarian government that is deciding, not average chinese like you and others. Although you seem to support your government's stance. I refuse to believe that everyone in China are like you. If you could answer me whether chinese people want to be ruled and want to be helping governments to rule people against their will?

You can think what you like but what me and Chauism posts runs pretty close to what the vast majority of chinese people think.

Americans and their media suffers from the inability to recognize not everyone want what they want, and not everyone in a democracy will automatically love Americans or American values.

They keep hoping for democracy in China but they may find that a democratic China to be more difficult to deal with.

If you don't believe me, believe the pew poll

China’s Optimism | Pew Global Attitudes Project

People's satisfaction for the government has only grown in the last 5 years with the 2008 Olympics, skillful handling of the financial crisis and the 2010 world expo.

 

[chauism]

Yes, you didn't answer why it's opposing US. Is it because it's a democracy? You and I well know that US cannot wage a war against China, so it cannot be about this insecurity.

My point is it's Chinese authoritarian government that is deciding, not average chinese like you and others. Although you seem to support your government's stance. I refuse to believe that everyone in China are like you. If you could answer me whether chinese people want to be ruled and want to be helping governments to rule people against their will?

No, the last thing the current Chinese government wants to fight is some idealogical mumbo jumbos. China is not the one who holds hostility towards USA, but the same thing can not be said vice versa. If anything Chinese government is one of the most pragmatic government on earth.

Well, actually most people are happy to leave a lot of things to the people who are running the government. If you check the PEW survey, China actually has the highest rating for satisfaction of its government and the direction the country is going comparing to many other countries among their citizens.The Chinese Celebrate Their Roaring Economy, As They Struggle With Its Costs | Pew Global Attitudes Project

China has an authoritirian government, but not a tyranny. Of course there will be people who disagree with what the government is doing as every other countries does, but they are definitely not the majority. If everyone has a saying in the politics, to me it just creates noise and chaos in a country with population of 1.3 billion which many of them are uneducated about politics at all. If you want to have something to say in politics then you better earn your right to speak in a meritocratic system as China has now. Read the debate as I mentioned above, it explains a lot.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Yes, you didn't answer why it's opposing US. Is it because it's a democracy? You and I well know that US cannot wage a war against China, so it cannot be about this insecurity.

My point is it's Chinese authoritarian government that is deciding, not average chinese like you and others. Although you seem to support your government's stance. I refuse to believe that everyone in China are like you. If you could answer me whether chinese people want to be ruled and want to be helping governments to rule people against their will?

Funny how the USA media had no mention of North Korea until after the IRAQ invasion, after the Iraq invasion the USA media did nothing but churn out articles about North Korea.

North Korea is an isolationist country, their only goals are isolation and reunification.

As for Iran every country should have the right to have nuclear weapons. It is not right when the country with the second largest nuclear stockpile prevents countries that are not aligned with it from building nuclear weapons while keeping its mouth shut about Israel's nuclear stockpile that is easily 100 large. The issue with Iran is not about nuclear weapons, it is a conflict between Islam and Israel.

Thats why China deals with these countries because they have done nothing serious enough to warrant invasion.

 

[sunny001]

You can think what you like but what me and Chauism posts runs pretty close to what the vast majority of chinese people think.

Americans and their media suffers from the inability to recognize not everyone want what they want, and not everyone in a democracy will automatically love Americans or American values.

They keep hoping for democracy in China but they may find that a democratic China to be more difficult to deal with.

If you don't believe me, believe the pew poll
http://pewglobal.org/files/legacy/249-7.gif

China’s Optimism | Pew Global Attitudes Project

People's satisfaction for the government has only grown in the last 5 years with the 2008 Olympics, skillful handling of the financial crisis that crippled the rest of the world and the 2010 world expo.

If you say so, if you people are happy, then who is anyone to say anything. But don't compare China with Sudan or North Korea, they have people desperate for food and shelter. They need support from other countries as they don't have a benevolent dictatorship that China has.

I refuse to believe that you support your government that supports authoritarian governments that are bending backwards to enslave their own people and keep them destitute for ever.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Yes Business is Business. But you could always do that business with democratic government as well. Why is china going out of it's way to support those governments with arms, vetoing in every opportunity it gets. you must be naive to believe that it's doing just for business.

It's just supporting a similar political structure that it has. But is it will of average Chinese or the people in those respective countries?

It can't be business as usual.

Regarding innovation I might be wrong. But I definitely read that paper. I study management at Harvard, I read so many papers, its hard to remember each and every one. Sorry, I'll try and find it. But, to put it in perspective, the paper didn't say innovation is not possible in authoritarian states, it just says it is natural in democracies.

China has supported every WEAPONS embargo placed on Iran and North Korea. China has vetoed every ECONOMIC embargo because China does not think that it is fair to kill millions by denying them of employment or food or medicine.

 

[whocares]

Funny how the USA media had no mention of North Korea until after the IRAQ invasion, after the Iraq invasion the USA media did nothing but churn out articles about North Korea.

North Korea is an isolationist country, their only goals are isolation and reunification.

As for Iran every country should have the right to have nuclear weapons. It is not right when the country with the second largest nuclear stockpile prevents countries that are not aligned with it from building nuclear weapons while keeping its mouth shut about Israel's nuclear stockpile that is easily 100 large. The issue with Iran is not about nuclear weapons, it is a conflict between Islam and Israel.

Thats why China deals with these countries because they have done nothing serious enough to warrant invasion.

do you realize how dangerous that makes the world. everyone with nuclear weapons ! strange opinion on that.

 

[CardSharp]

Yes Business is Business. But you could always do that business with democratic government as well. Why is china going out of it's way to support those governments with arms, vetoing in every opportunity it gets. you must be naive to believe that it's doing just for business.

That is where you're mistaken. China is in Sudan, Venezuela, and Iran because they have oil and other commodities. Similarly it does a very large portion of its natural resource trade with countries like Australia and Canada. Both have sterling democratic creditials. (in fact Sinopec and other Chinese oil interest have been buying up large shares of oil companies out west here in Canada.)

As for Chinese UN support and arms... It is a bit reprehensible, but it is all part of securing a continued flow of resources. If sanctions or unrest can affect Chinese imports, China will probably do what it can to prevent it (even if it means guns and UN vetos)

It's just supporting a similar political structure that it has. But is it will of average Chinese or the people in those respective countries?

According to you there are no difference between authoritarian governments? I hate that word anyways, as it is used to describe all forms of government not democratic. Historically "authoritarian" governments were the norm and democratic government the exception.

Regarding innovation I might be wrong. But I definitely read that paper. I study management at Harvard, I read so many papers, its hard to remember each and every one. Sorry, I'll try and find it. But, to put it in perspective, the paper didn't say innovation is not possible in authoritarian states, it just says it is natural in democracies

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not accusing you of fabricating a paper. It's just I wanted to take a look at the paper and examined their reasoning/methodology to see whether I was right about it being a politically motivated piece.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

do you realize how dangerous that makes the world. everyone with nuclear weapons ! strange opinion on that.

It is not about being dangerous, but being fair nobody has the right to police the world. There has been a lot of evidence that shows that was is less likely to happen between nuclear armed nations.

War between China and India broke out before China developed the bomb.

Many wars between India and Pakistan have broken out before India developed the bomb.

 

[CardSharp]

If you say so, if you people are happy, then who is anyone to say anything. But don't compare China with Sudan or North Korea, they have people desperate for food and shelter. They need support from other countries as they don't have a benevolent dictatorship that China has.

I refuse to believe that you support your government that supports authoritarian governments that are bending backwards to enslave their own people and keep them destitute for ever.

But that's just it. China doesn't want to play world police seeing as how the American world police end up doing more harm than good. Of course, I feel for those people (Sudan and NK) but would American style meddling really do good there? We have mountains of evidence from all over the world that says no. The most recent coming from Iraq and Afghanistan.