The Chinese Bayraktar

[serenity]

They are many times , it the western countries who wanted cheap imitation and China factories simply just produced according to demand of western customers.

China factories are very practical. We produced items needed by export customers. No factories will produce item deem too expensive which nobody wants and loses money.

I know. You don't need to tell me. I know how Chinese think and do business.

They see anything at all in the market and there will at least be a copy or equivalent. It will not be allowed to be the only one on the market with those features. There will be many Chinese equivalents and copies to be offered as alternatives on the market. It's a greed thing from the culture with respect to making money. It feels to the business owners that they are missing out on opportunity if they don't do that.

However, I was trying to explain this is all separate to what it also does on its own and the separate path of what it develops and makes for its own requirements for example WZ-8 and the Divine Eagle near space radar. Or the solar powered high altitude long endurance drone. All part of ocean surveillance that China requires as backup to satellite and space based sensor nodes for AShBM and HGVs targeting carriers.

They only offered a TB-2 alternative in case there are customers who want a low end MALE drone with no electronic equipment outside some simple easily jammed radio comms and a cheap camera. China can make it for the customer cheaper and faster than Turkey. No politics required either. Turkey cannot offer certain customers this same package due to politics or potential sanctioning of parts. Now Turkey can produce the whole thing themselves without okay from foreign parts suppliers. But there are countries Turkey is not friendly with and who would maybe want a TB-2 like drone.

TB-2 and WL-2 CH-4 (much older MALE UAVs than Akinci and TB-2) are very different. So China wants to get a slice of the TB-2 market as well for countries that don't or can't buy from Turkey.

It's very simple.

sort of, Huwaei acquired the core IP of 5G technology from a Turk named Erdal Arıkan a former researcher at the University of illinois without Polar coding developed by Prof Ankan Chinese 5G wouldn't exist.

Nope. Erdal only created a branch of mathematics that makes 5G telecommunication technology possible. He is an integral part but did not develop all the hundreds of technologies and theories required for 5G tech.

He discovered one branch of maths required for one part of theory required for 5G tech.

That's like saying one critical software engineer at Microsoft is responsible for every success and breakthrough at Microsoft. In reality, that person only contributed one part but a critical part making the whole thing possible.

All you desperately want to do is take away credit from Chinese counterparts to Erdal. For every Erdal, there were hundreds of Chinese counterparts who made Huawei's 5G tech possible (which btw is the first and established most of 5G core tech that European and American 5G tech providers can't exist without).

still dependent on Huawei with no full replacement options

not so easy or affordable to replace Huawei

To mention nothing about Western "5G" tech speeds and capabilities being a fraction of China's.

You make it sound like Erdal created every piece of 5G technology.

then Boeing wouldn't exist without Chinese engineer Wong Tsu. USA should thank China for Wong Tsu.

Nvidia wouldn't exist without ethnic Chinese Jensen Huang (at least not white North American or European right just like Turk is not Chinese for Huawei). USA's Nvidia only exists and all success is due to that ethnic Chinese person.

Much of silicon valley wouldn't exist without Chinese contribution.

USA's NASA and space program is owed to a German.

USA's nuclear weapons and technology is owed to Jews.

The thousands of Chinese born and citizen engineers and scientists who worked in US computing and AI industry means US computing and AI industry only exists due to ethnic Chinese citizens' contributions.

Just following your logic.

USA's hypersonic glide programs wouldn't exist without Chinese scientist Qian Xuesen, basically the father of the trajectory most HGVs use.

 

[dbc]

So basically when China uses established designs it can only copy but when it doesn't use established designs, it is a terrible design (according to you and people like you).

Basically you have set the discussion up in a way that your version and interpretation of things is irrefutable by how you established the axioms.

Axiom 1. China only copies. Ignore the fact that everyone not at absolute leading edge also only copies.

Axiom 2. For some reasons when China seemingly is not copying an established design. It is not because it's doing its own thing that suits it best and not because it is capable of not copying but it's because it is using a design that is bad. Any different approach used by China must be called bad.

Very productive sorts of conversations to be had with this approach. China bad, always.

Sorry but in my opinion the J-20 is suited to just one role - long range air interdiction.
It's design is less than ideally suited to other missions and I don't think the platform is designed for survivability and is unlikely to RTB with battle damage. It exposes Chinese air combat inexperience to a large degree.

Besides, I've never liked close coupled delta canards. It's just my opinion you may disregard and stick a ha ha response and move on.

 

[serenity]

Sorry but in my opinion the J-20 is suited to just one role - long range air interdiction.
It's design is less than ideally suited to other missions and I don't think the platform is designed for survivability and is unlikely to RTB with battle damage. It exposes Chinese air combat inexperience to a large degree.

Besides, I've never liked close coupled delta canards. It's just my opinion you may disregard and stick a ha ha response and move on.

Okay that's your opinion.

There are morons out there who think F-35 cannot turn and fly well. That the F-22's skin is always faulty, that F-35 has electronic problems that make them much less effective.

Lots of opinions and thoughts out there indeed. Lots of delusions and beliefs. People are entitled to delusions, opinions, belief systems. Does not make reality that way, also reality does not care for that and do not accommodate naivety. You may be right. Your opinion is somewhat based on some reality which are based on some more reputable opinions. We can leave it at that but we can also say that J-20 is the least like the F-22/ F-35 5th gen design. That is the established design which China also copied with J-35. India is copying it, Turkey is copying it, Russia semi copied it, UK and France with their programs also semi copied it, South Korea copied it, Japan is trying to copy it and yes while Japan's program differs more from F-22 F-35 than India's, Turkey's and Korea's, it is still much more similar to it than Tempest and FCAS initial concepts, and J-20.

My point is with 5th gen designs, Lockheed Martin established the optimal design. Everyone has copied it in some parts if not entirely - Turkey's TFX, India's AMCA, Korea's KF-21, Japan's initial programs, China's J-35 and in lesser part, even Russia's Su-57 also uses the same design as F-22 F-35 if we ignore LEVCONs and fuselage tunnel they insist on keeping from Flanker and Fulcrum.

That is the established design just like with drones everyone copied Global Hawk and Predator. All flying wings converge on certain design aspects and elements. I mean to make it fly well with storage you can only do it certain ways. But that's the established design and the US was leading edge with those back in 2000s. Israel, Russia, UK, Turkey all copied those too. Iran copied them as well I should add.

WRT China's drones. China makes every type every established type and offers multiple from multiple state owned and run organizations and private ones.

But China also has established different designs too. China (more accurately those organizations and businesses) want to make money with drone exports. It offers every product for customer that exists and ones that it imagines to exist. For example, this TB-2 aerodynamic copy which can be aimed at customers who cannot afford serious MALE drones of the Predator class but want something smaller and cheaper because they have low tier adversaries who cannot jam and destroy TB-2 class drones with relative ease.

 

[dbc]

Nope. Erdal only created a branch of mathematics that makes 5G

go argue with Huwaei they call him father of 5G

Huawei honours the father of 5G in special ceremony | TahawulTech.com

Huawei has presented an award to Dr. Erdal Arikan, the inventor of polar codes for 5G, for his contribution to the development of communications technology.

www.tahawultech.com

 

[jhungary]

Yes, China copy US 5G. Oops, US don't even have 5G?

You do know US trial 5G like 6 months before China, right?? South Korea Claim they are the first, US claim they only allow Celebrity to connect, not a nationwide roll out.

US dismisses South Korea’s launch of world-first 5G network as ‘stunt’

Half a dozen celebrities were the first to experience the service, carriers say

www.theguardian.com

250 millions out of 330 millions of American have coverage on 5G and as of Jan this year, China only ships out 266 million 5G handset. Out of 1.3 billion population

5G coverage maps: Every US city with AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile 5G

Blazing-fast 5G access for everyone!

www.androidcentral.com

AT&T has 5G coverage for 255 million people with additional mmWave capacity in parts of 42 cities across the country. This has surpassed the goal of 40 in 2021, and AT&T expects to add even more before the end of the year. AT&T has also launched a C-band network with coverage in eight cities with more to follow.

China now has 5G base stations in "all" cities and urban areas

China now has 5G base stations in "all" cities and urban areas. As of now, China is far ahead of the world in terms of 5G development

www.gizchina.com

Earlier today, the China Academy of Information and Communications Technology, which is directly under the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, released the 5G development report for 2021. According to the report, in 2021, 5G mobile phone shipments in the Chinese market hit 266 million units.

I wouldn't brag about 5G in China if I were you.

And 5G is so 2019, if you want to talk, we are now moving on 5G advance.

 

[serenity]

Erdal himself does not consider himself to have "invented" 5G. All he did was discover a branch of maths that eventually applications to 5G. One should note that pure maths professionals discover impractical and inapplicable maths often. In future there may be applications. For Erdal's case, his work eventually found an application. How come then Ericsson, AT&T, Westinghouse, GE, Motorola, NEC, Sumitomo, Toshiba etc none of them developed 5G before Huawei? Erdal's maths was discovered before 5G tech started developing. It was available for everyone.

go argue with Huwaei they call him father of 5G

Just like Einstein is the father of atom bomb. But Einstein didn't build the atom bomb just himself all on his own. The atom bomb cannot exist without Einstein's critical contribution to one part of its theory. It has many parts to make it a reality. In fact, Erdal's contribution to 5G tech is less than Einstein's contribution to atom bomb despite both having made absolutely critical contributions which made the technology possible.

Huawei and Chinese are at least honorable enough to credit him with such a relative hyperbole. That's their choice. The fact remains that Huawei developed most of the world's initial 5G tech and owns the most impressive 5G tech. It is contracted with most countries to build their national 5G network.

I guess China and Chinese are responsible for Nvidia, Boeing, US military using CL-20 (discovered by Chinese), quantum communication technology (first done by Chinese), photonic chips (first used by Chinese), photon based quantum computing. Everything won and stolen through the use of gunpowder and paper. Chinese own all rockets too since we discovered and used them first. Gunpowder based weapons and CL-20 based weapons (we didn't invent TNT that's Americans granted so I skipped that generation of explosives).

Ethnic Chinese are responsible for 7nm and 5nm node chips generation since Taiwanese are ethnic Chinese. Certainly the Americans didn't invent the comprehensive fabrication methods to do this.

What a ridiculous way to consider things. The country USA wouldn't exist if it weren't for Chinese invention of compass and gunpowder too. I guess USA needs to thank China for existing.

 

[zhxy]

The UAV in this thread and the TB-2 have similar shapes. But engine, propeller, control system, optics, material, weight, payload, range, altitude.... are different. There are thousands of dissimilar components.

A lot of people define copy cat based on appearance. And it's also related to politics and nationalism

- On the PDF, many US members insulted China "Copy Cat" because the Z-20 resembles the Black Hawk.
- A few weeks ago, some Chinese members insulted India because the Indian uav is superficially similar to the Turkish uav.
- In the future, the same may happen to India. They will insult someone as a "copy cat" because that country's weapons are similar to Indian weapons

History repeats itself.

 

[serenity]

Microsoft put R&D centers in China to gain access to Chinese talents. Microsoft has an entire AI division inside China using Chinese scientists, mathematicians, and engineers. Whatever work they make and discoveries they make are owned by Microsoft. Does that mean Microsoft's success belong to Chinese people and China the country?

With Huawei's example we have one non Chinese who has made a critical contribution to 5G industry for everyone btw including Ericsson Nokia etc whoever makes 5G technologies that apply Erdal's work. Which means Western nations also benefited from Erdal... just like western nations benefited from paper, gunpowder and the thousands upon thousands of Chinese scientists and engineers who have made contributions to western industries and science established over the century.

For every Erdal, there are thousands of Chinese examples who would have done similarly for the west.

The guy who improved solar cell technology the major step is Chinese. Worked for western university and corporations. That means the solar cell technology is only thanks to a Chinese person. You're welcome.

All nations owe Newton for making basically every part of the modern world possible without Newtonian mechanics and calculus (Leibniz most likely independently discovered calculus too!) nothing in the modern world would have been possible until another Newton like figure came to discover all that. So USA (along with every other country) basically only exists in present level of development thanks to Britain's Newton.

If we want to ascribe absolute credit to single portional force, then it becomes silly. But the intention of the troll is to cheapen respectful and worthwhile dialogue. Which of course on this forum is not possible and therefore no longer the point. Still those things I said needs to be mentioned because if we weight things up, China and Chinese experts have contributed a hell of a lot to not just the 20th century west.

The UAV in this thread and the TB-2 have similar shapes. But engine, propeller, control system, optics, material, weight, payload, range, altitude.... are different. There are thousands of dissimilar components.

A lot of people define copy cat based on appearance. And it's also related to politics and nationalism

- On the PDF, many US members insulted China by copying cat because the Z-20 resembles the Black Hawk.
- A few weeks ago, some Chinese members insulted India because the Indian uav is superficially similar to the Turkish uav.
- In the future, the same may happen to India. They will insult someone as a "copy cat" because that country's weapons are similar to Indian weapons

History repeats itself.

Every field that China copies in it is or was also behind the US in.

For carrier EMALs, China invented its own system which came out roughly same time as US system (only a few years in difference) and uses a totally different principle and components compared to US. China's applies DC while US uses AC for EMALs and they have very different parts and mechanisms underneath due to divergence. The only similarity is applying electromagnets instead of steam catapult. One example where the concept is the same (copying) but applying and executing it very differently (where 99.99999% of the real work actually is ie making the thing and the whole process).

For others, it is ahead of US: Hypersonic glide vehicles, combined cycle engines (China's flown many and already reported on it for over a year now), MaRV (announced existence of MaRV based AShBM back in 2007), networked UHF radars to counter stealth with higher accuracy, Space based counter stealth, dual band multifunction AESA radars for ships, as some obvious complete products (not counting subcomponents improving over the years and surpassing in certain ways).

For stuff behind the US, naturally there would be copies of established designs at least. There are independent paths pursued also but copies are also done even if for nothing more than export options.

 

[serenity]

Now compare with other countries. In the modern tech era, what has Turkey "invented"? What has India invented? What has Korea invented? What has Greece invented?

They all copied 5th gen designs (Greece has not but that doesn't mean they don't want to have their own 5th gen). They all copied established designs when they are not leading edge.

China's contributions to the west are greater than those examples. China has more original design weapons than those countries. What sort of measurement is this? Does that mean those countries cannot do anything? No. No intelligent people? No. How many Indians also contribute to the west? A hell of a lot. An Indian engineer sold B-2 engine signature data to China in the past. He was a critical part of the B-2's development team. USA's B-2 wouldn't be possible without that Indian engineer. B-2 is India's.

No matter how west is best fanboys want to discuss, it always backfires when the full truths are presented even according to their selective rules and discussion method.

It's hilarious. No matter what, west does not rule and dominate and increasingly less so just as is right and is deserved.

 

[Beast]

I don't see all the fuss about this copy becos obviously Chinese forces have better one used.

These are obvious export products. And maybe bound for Ukraine since they can only access to TB2 UCAV. Lol...

 

[SecularNationalist]

Yee Long Ma

Lee wanzu elon

 

[Broccoli]

Nice if you to ignore dozens of other models developed by China and focus on 1 sharing visual similarity. I guess you get triggered by a miniature model?

I'd be more embarrassed if the Chinese prime minister was dancing and grinding like a college slut.

At least I can criticize my prime minister openly.

Can you criticize Xi Jinping? No, you can't and that's why many pro-China pdf members live in the west.

 

[Foinikas]

At least I can criticize my prime minister openly.

Can you criticize Xi Jinping? No, you can't and that's why many pro-China pdf members live in the west.

True

 

[beijingwalker]

At least I can criticize my prime minister openly.

Can you criticize Xi Jinping? No, you can't and that's why many pro-China pdf members live in the west.

We don't trash talk the government for the sake of being able to do so, we often sonstructive criticism so the problems can be quickly fixed, one of the main reason that China can develop so fast is we spend much less time in blaming shifting and fingure pointing, countries like US and India, seemingly have so called freedom of speech and democracy, but they spend all their time and energy in infighting and making empty election promises, their problems can never be squarely addressed and fixed.

 

[Metal 0-1]

How many people in China think this copying is embarrassing?

My dude these people are photocopies of each other.