The Case for Mini Aircraft Carriers for Indian Navy

[black-hawk_101]

oh k. but sir that still costs billions.. you've to pay bilion for LHD then Billions for frigates,subs and other ships.. then have to buy new rotatory wing for the LHD along with missiles and torpedoes. then again Defensive and offensive missile for LHD and surface ships.. main Maintanance costs... It'll still cost more than five times the budget of PN

You are 100% right! And this is also planned.

Pak Marines will have a separate budget of its own which will be bigger than what will PN going to get.
They will have most probably from US-Marine fleets:
3-4 LPDs
3-4 LHDs
6-8 OHPs upgraded as guard ships
Chinooks - Sea Stallions - Bell-412 - Super Cobras
8-12 Andrasta for Coastal Operations

 

[monitor]

You are 100% right! And this is also planned.

Pak Marines will have a separate budget of its own which will be bigger than what will PN going to get.
They will have most probably from US-Marine fleets:
3-4 LPDs
3-4 LHDs
6-8 OHPs upgraded as guard ships
Chinooks - Sea Stallions - Bell-412 - Super Cobras
8-12 Andrasta for Coastal Operations

You need to check your mental health. Please contact a good physician.

 

[$@rJen]

I guess you could,Americans are doing this right now (landing planes on LHDs)

Most probably F-35B.. not f-18 right

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Best option is to order one more improved INS Vikrant in STOBAR configuration. And go for the amphibious vessels seperately.

 

[$@rJen]

Yes of course. Now we will have to decide between Rafale M a bomb truck with 4+ generation capability (including nuclear delivery) , F35 pure 5th generation fighter made for ground attacks and Naval warfare. But buying f35 will give us additional options for LPD, Back up fighter incase of runway destroyed, island operation and coastal defence role.

Question is will vertical takeoff is enough to select F35 with more problems looming over F35 project. ?

If we select EMALS i don't think so we'll have a Option to choose. there's no way Yanks are going to let us put another fighter on their system. If EMALS then its coming with a package.. anyway the Carrier will come by 2025 by that time we'll already be using 5th Gen and In future carriers China might place 5th Gen fighter, even Pakistan might buy few 5th gen from China... so we better go for next gen carrier based fighter, F-35 doesn't have a big problem.. they can be sorted out. atleast by the time we by the fighter will be more matured

You are 100% right! And this is also planned.

Pak Marines will have a separate budget of its own which will be bigger than what will PN going to get.
They will have most probably from US-Marine fleets:
3-4 LPDs
3-4 LHDs
6-8 OHPs upgraded as guard ships
Chinooks - Sea Stallions - Bell-412 - Super Cobras
8-12 Andrasta for Coastal Operations

No sir.. Marines will be the part of navy and their size is about 2-4 thousand, why would navy allow them to have all this equipment when PN can't even buy the 40% of this items with its funds. And Pakistani marines will be used to defend the beaches not to invade indian Beaches.. PN doesn't have the budget of USMC or its equipments

 

[GR!FF!N]

You are 100% right! And this is also planned.

Pak Marines will have a separate budget of its own which will be bigger than what will PN going to get.
They will have most probably from US-Marine fleets:
3-4 LPDs
3-4 LHDs
6-8 OHPs upgraded as guard ships
Chinooks - Sea Stallions - Bell-412 - Super Cobras
8-12 Andrasta for Coastal Operations

Sir,you've mixed up between LST with LPD/LHD.

LPD.....

LHD....

LST

I wonder even Pakistan needs so many LSTs.

 

[Echo_419]

Most probably F-35B.. not f-18 right

Yeah only VTOL aircraft

 

[$@rJen]

Yeah only VTOL aircraft

That was also practiced on Izumo class helicopter carrier. it'll be good if we have mix of F-35B, S-70B and a Attack helis on the deck..

 

[Ind4Ever]

Are you sure 40000 ton displacement part? because afaik Indian navy issued RFI for 5 future fleet tankers where they put weight as 40000 tons back in 2012-13. Also I remember an article right after that where they mixed up fleet tanker to MRSV and since then this 40000 ton part keep popping up every now and then.


Are you sure 40000 ton displacement part? because afaik Indian navy issued RFI for 5 future fleet tankers where they put weight as 40000 tons back in 2012-13. Also I remember an article right after that where they mixed up fleet tanker to MRSV and since then this 40000 ton part keep popping up every now and then.

I was not able to find its document. As am away from home.

This was my previous comment on the same topic. Actual RFP by Indian Navy

Actually I have RFI of LPD . But it's old one . But we re issued RFI with 40000 T max in 2014 . Which I don't have . But to put my case forward I can paste an article by Janes . com . It's not a bad source indeed ...

So let me : Old RFI

Ministry of Defence Government of India
(f) Offset Clause. Implementation of Offset provisions will be required as applicable in accordance with Appendix D of Chapter I of DPP-11.
(g) Integrity Pact (if applicable). An integrity pact along with appropriate EMD will be required if applicable in the instant case (refer Annexure I to Appendix H of schedule I of Chapter I of DPP-11).
(h) Performance-cum-Warranty Bond. A Performance-cum-Warranty Bond equal to 5% value of the contract is required to be submitted after signing of the contract.
(j) ToT (If applicable). In accordance with the provision of Buy & Make (Indian) procedure.
7. Procedure for Response.
PART-II
(a) Shipyard must fill the form of response, as applicable, as given in Appendix B (Appendix E of Chapter I of DPP-11) and Appendix C of this document. Apart from filling details about Shipyard, following details about the exact vessel meeting the mentioned Operational/ Technical specifications (Appendix A) are to be submitted:-

(i) Feasibility to build the LPDs with the enclosed specifications (Appendix A). Any modification to the specifications can be suggested by the Shipyard with suitable justification.
(ii) Budgetary quotes with break up of cost.
(iii) Build Period
(iv) Experience in Building similar vessels along with client details.
(v) MOU, if any, with respect to design aspects
(b) The filled form should be dispatched at under mentioned address: -
The Principal Director of Ship Production Directorate of Ship Production IHQ-MoD(N), D-II Wing, Sena Bhavan, New Delhi 110011.
Tele: 0091-11-23010758
Fax : 0091-11-23010803 / 23010142
E-Mail: dsp-navy@nic.in, dspdspdsp@rediffmail.com
(c) Last date of acceptance of filled forms along with details sought is 07 Mar 2011. The Shipyards short listed for issue of RFP would be intimated.
8. The Government of India invites responses to this request only from Indian Shipyards, having their own infrastructure and capability of building LPD class of ships. The end user of the LPDs is the Indian Navy.
9. This information is being issued with no financial commitment and the Ministry of Defence reserves the right to change or vary any part thereof at any stage. The Government of India also reserves the right to withdraw it, should it be so necessary at any stage. The acquisition process would be carried out under the provisions of DPP 2011.

OPERATIONAL / TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS FOR LPD
Appendix A
1. The Indian Navy seeks information from prospective Indian ship builders for design and construction of Landing Platform Dock (LPD) class of ships. The ships would be constructed in India under Buy and Make (Indian) categorization as amplified in Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2011.
2. The design of basic hull form, propulsion machinery and major equipment except the weapon and sensors fit, should be derived from a proven world class design of an LPD of similar dimensions. The details of proposed classification society and class notation are also to be provided. In case the design is being bought, the shipyard should have an MOU with the designer for construction of LPD at the time of submission of tenders. The design would be vetted by IHQ, MoD (N), at the time of technical evaluation of tenders.
3. The broad specifications of the ship are as follows:-
(a) The length of the ship would be approx 200 m. Breadth is to be commensurate with the length and tonnage of the ship.
(b) The draught of the ship is not to exceed 08 m.
(c) The ship is expected to have an endurance of 45 days.
(d) The ship is to have Diesel-Electric propulsion in either of the following configuration:-
(i) Twin shaft configuration, with twin rudders and Fixed Pitch Propellers or,
(ii) Shock graded podded propulsion.
(e) The ship is to have a suitable well deck for amphibious operations. The ship would carry amphibious crafts like LCMs or LCACs and LCVPs on davits and should have capability to launch these crafts when underway.
(f) The ship is expected to have a carriage of combat vehicles on one or more vehicle deck. This area should be adequate to embark Main Battle Tank (MBT), AAVs/BMP Class armoured vehicles and heavy trucks.
(g) The ship would be equipped with a Point Defence Missile System, Close In Weapon System, Anti Torpedo Decoy system, Chaff System and HMGs/ LMGs. In addition, ship would have one E/ F band combined air and surface surveillance radar and one C/D band air surveillance radar. All of these would be buyer nominated equipment.
(h) The ship is expected to carry army troops in addition to ship crew.
(j) The ship should have capability of simultaneous operation by day/ night of Special Operation Helicopters and Large Helicopters (upto 35 tons).
4. Construction. The construction must be undertaken employing modern Build Strategy allowing for integrated construction to derive benefits of high degree of pre-outfitting at block level to facilitate very short build period.
5. Contract. All terms and conditions of the contract will be in accordance with the latest Defence Procurement Procedure DPP- 2011 that is available on the MoD Ministry of Defence Government of India
6. The following information is required from shipyards:-
(a) Proposed time frame for construction of ships, in terms of number of years for the delivery of vessels
(b) Capabilities of the shipyard to undertake this project, both in terms of capacity building and past experience in constructing vessels of similar size and tonnage.
(c) Capacity for ship design and equipment integration.
(d) Possible tie-ups with foreign shipyards, if any.
And now this is our new RFI which I don't have but I quote from a reputed source :

India re-releases LPD tender to private-sector shipyards
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 October 2014
India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) reissued a request for proposal (RfP) in mid-September to three local private sector shipyards to build four amphibious assault ships for an estimated INR250 billion (USD4.16 billion.

The RfP to ABG, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), and Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering - all located on India's west coast - seeks a builder for 40,000-tonne landing platform docks (LPDs) for the Indian Navy (IN). Completion is requested by 2027.

IN officials said all three contenders would be permitted to enter into joint ventures (JVs) with foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) to design and build the LPDs.




To read the full article, Client Login
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India re-releases LPD tender to private-sector shipyards - IHS Jane's 360

Source: On hunt for naval ‘Trojan horses’, Parrikar heads to South Korea | Page 2

 

[black-hawk_101]

Sir,you've mixed up between LST with LPD/LHD.

LPD.....

LHD....

LST

I wonder even Pakistan needs so many LSTs.

I mean OHP which is a US class frigate. PM (Pak Marines) will need them to guard they KPDs-LHDs-LSTs too.

If we select EMALS i don't think so we'll have a Option to choose. there's no way Yanks are going to let us put another fighter on their system. If EMALS then its coming with a package.. anyway the Carrier will come by 2025 by that time we'll already be using 5th Gen and In future carriers China might place 5th Gen fighter, even Pakistan might buy few 5th gen from China... so we better go for next gen carrier based fighter, F-35 doesn't have a big problem.. they can be sorted out. atleast by the time we by the fighter will be more matured



No sir.. Marines will be the part of navy and their size is about 2-4 thousand, why would navy allow them to have all this equipment when PN can't even buy the 40% of this items with its funds. And Pakistani marines will be used to defend the beaches not to invade indian Beaches.. PN doesn't have the budget of USMC or its equipments

But they can have as privatization is going on.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I gave up on this article when it got to this:

The Indian Navy should embark the LCA Tejas (Navy) on the LHD’s. The Tejas is a lightweight fighter of 15.5 tons which would make it one of the lightest shipborne fighters second only to the Harrier which weighs in at 14 tons. The Harrier is on the verge of being retired by all it user.

The LCA Navy is a STOBAR carrier and would need an angled flight deck for safe operations, much like traditional carriers being operated the world over. This would require a change in the design of the LHD’s to convert their straight deck flight decks to angled flight decks.

The complete omission that need to have arrestor wires (that take up a LOT of internal volume, are complex and maitence-intesive systems) if you want to operate STOBAR fighters undermines the entire premise of this article.

Aside from that, the point of the IN's LHD/LDP is not to be "pocket" aircraft carriers but to support amphibious operations- a capability entirely lacking (in any considerable way) to date.


The writer of this article has found himself entirely confused between a number of concepts, doctrines and history itself. Simply looking at the USN's MEUs with LHD operating fixed-wing fighters at their heart doesn't mean a) the IN requires such a capability themselves or b) Indian systems in existence today can be applied to a similar concept.


Aircraft carriers will have their purpose in the IN- the LHD/LPDs will have their own, blurring the lines between the two only hurts the IN.

On a more through examination:

The only options for the Indian Naval “pocket aircraft carriers” apart from the LCA Navy would be the F35B and F35C which weigh in at 27.3 tons and 30 tons respectively.

It gets worse


The F-35C for LHD? So now you want to put catapults AND arrestor wires on an vessel whose primary focus would be amphibious assault?


This just gets more and more asinine.

I think Naval Tejas was developed to fly from STOBAR System... only Juan Carlos class LHD can accommodate them. (Correct me I'm Wrong)

Not without serious modification (i.e. arrestor wires).

You are 100% right! And this is also planned.

Pak Marines will have a separate budget of its own which will be bigger than what will PN going to get.
They will have most probably from US-Marine fleets:
3-4 LPDs
3-4 LHDs
6-8 OHPs upgraded as guard ships
Chinooks - Sea Stallions - Bell-412 - Super Cobras
8-12 Andrasta for Coastal Operations

None of the above is coming for the Pak marines.