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The case against Hafiz Saeed

Excellent point Skeptic, this is what I've been trying to say on other threads too. If Pakistan is serious about stopping terrorism (by orgs created by their own establishment at one time) then there's always a way. ARE THEY SERIOUS? Thats the question.

we will be serious when KASHMIR is solved....secondly when INDIA stops dragging its feet and hands over CLEAR evidence....and that my friend india has lacked and their careless attitude was highlighted when they handed over the DNA samples of KASAB!!

as for LeT and Hafeez leaving LeT well....for that matter India supported the LTTE at one point and then withdrew the support....why because India realized that the LTTE was messed up.....until and unless you have proof to show that LeT and Hafeez still have contact you can't frame someone for the fact that at one time he was part of an organization that went ROGUE after he left it!!!
 
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we will be serious when KASHMIR is solved....secondly when INDIA stops dragging its feet and hands over CLEAR evidence....and that my friend india has lacked and their careless attitude was highlighted when they handed over the DNA samples of KASAB!!

as for LeT and Hafeez leaving LeT well....for that matter India supported the LTTE at one point and then withdrew the support....why because India realized that the LTTE was messed up.....until and unless you have proof to show that LeT and Hafeez still have contact you can't frame someone for the fact that at one time he was part of an organization that went ROGUE after he left it!!!


Read the highlighed line from Skeptic's post again. He created the new org a day before LET was to be banned. He knew of course, thanks to SOMEONE IN PAK ESTABLISHMENT. I don't know who gets fooled by these tactics, certainly not me.
 
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]we will be serious when KASHMIR is solved![/B]
This pretty much sums up the attitude displayed by GoP and subsequent statement made by Gilani. All this drama is aimed at bringing in Kashmir, and that's the entire point being made, that Pakistan Govt. was not serious in pursuing this case and I don't think we should expect official support from Pakistan in Mumbai case.

This will be pursued by India to highlight the lack of resolve shown by Pakistan to eliminate terror in all forms. Already we have had statement from US showing disappointment over acquittal of Saeed, rest will soon follow.

If Pakistan is serious about eliminating terror, these groups also need to go. Else one day they will also come back to haunt as Taliban did for Pakistan and US and to a certain extent LTTE for India.

You can wait till that day hoping that Kashmir gets resolved first. And in solving Kashmir, supporting these terrorists will act as a deterrent weakening Pakistan's case.

And Here you go: Coming from Riedel, who proposed an India like Nuclear Deal for Pakistan

U.S. criticizes Pakistan for release of militant


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States on Wednesday strongly criticized the release by a Pakistani court of the founder of a militant group accused of being behind the attacks on the Indian city of Mumbai last year.

On Tuesday, a Pakistani high court ordered the release of Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, founder of the group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which angered India as well as the United States. At least 166 people were killed in the attacks on India's financial hub.

"In the aftermath of the November Mumbai attacks we made very clear that there is an international responsibility to cooperate and to bring the perpetrators to justice and that Pakistan has a special responsibility to do so, transparently, fully and urgently," said State Department spokesman Robert Wood.

"Pakistan has said it is committed to fighting terrorism, understood the urgency and had promised strong action against those responsible," he told Reuters.

India has charged 38 people -- most residents of Pakistan -- in connection with the three-day attack, in which police say gunmen landed in Mumbai by boat from Pakistan and then rampaged through several of the city's landmarks including the main train station, two luxury hotels and a Jewish center.

Wood said the United States did not yet know details of the court's decision and was seeking more information.

Saeed was put under house arrest in early December after a U.N. Security Council committee added him and the Islamist charity he heads to a list of people and organizations linked to al Qaeda or the Taliban.

"We continue to impress upon the government of Pakistan the importance of bringing the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks to justice," said Wood.

"We encourage the prosecution of those already in custody and further investigations to develop evidence to prosecute all those responsible for acts of terrorism," Wood added.

'TOUGH LOVE' FOR PAKISTAN

Pakistan expert Bruce Riedel, who oversaw the Obama administration's overhaul of Afghanistan and Pakistan policy earlier this year, said Saeed's release indicated a lack of commitment in fighting extremism by the close U.S. ally.

"There is no question that it (Lashkar-e-Taiba) planned, orchestrated -- down to the minute -- the mayhem and murder that happened in Mumbai," said Riedel, with the Saban Center at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

"Letting this guy go is a signal that the Pakistanis are not serious about the most important terrorist organization in their country," added Riedel, a former CIA analyst.

The Obama administration has said repeatedly Pakistan's government must do more to fight extremism that is spilling over into Afghanistan, linking U.S. assistance to fulfilling that commitment.

Riedel questioned whether the Pakistani military's offensive in the Swat valley against the Taliban was really a "sea change" or just what he described as a half-hearted attempt to stamp out militants.

"It all comes down to the (Pakistani) army and whether they are serious. The evidence there remains very mixed," he said.

Riedel said he expected U.S. special representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, would deliver a tough message during his visit this week to Pakistan.

"I think that the U.S.-Pakistan relationship will be one of tough love in which we are constantly pushing them to do more. There is no other alternative."
 
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Chief of the banned Islamist organisation Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) and founder of the Lashkar-e-Taiba , Mumbai attack mastermind set free by Pakistan court. ..

FBI carried out the investigation , scotland yard validated the forensic evidences...
but still ....

news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3037335
 
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now amarican are calling it a internal matter of pakistan.......
really a great moral booster for terrorists.....
 
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That was only because
India didnt give solid evidence against him.
GoI never been serious to reply those 30 questions. They freezed the relation with Pakistan and that was their mistake.

Their are people on both sides who dont want Pakistan and India to come closer.
 
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india have to sort out other options....unfortunatly india has left with very few option after these developments...
 
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There is another reason that Pakistan is no more intrested in Mumbai investigation.
Read the todays news cut.

RAW is involved in Srilankan team attack, Monawa police school atacks and last week Lahore bomb blast.

If India keep doing this, may be some thing can be happen in India in response.
 
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Read the highlighed line from Skeptic's post again. He created the new org a day before LET was to be banned. He knew of course, thanks to SOMEONE IN PAK ESTABLISHMENT. I don't know who gets fooled by these tactics, certainly not me.

lol fateh i guess on this forum you are also turning into those people you once despised....now you are talking about tactics and you not getting fooled....this my friend cannot be proved until evidence shows up....and like we say INDIA is involved in BALOCHISTAN and we will not be "FOOLED" by these INDIAN "TACTICS" well again this is going to remain just a conspiracy theory until we get proof and that also applies to SAEED and his leaving the LeT....so ya you MIGHT be right but without proof i am sorry he can't be convicted!!
 
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This pretty much sums up the attitude displayed by GoP and subsequent statement made by Gilani. All this drama is aimed at bringing in Kashmir, and that's the entire point being made, that Pakistan Govt. was not serious in pursuing this case and I don't think we should expect official support from Pakistan in Mumbai case.

This will be pursued by India to highlight the lack of resolve shown by Pakistan to eliminate terror in all forms. Already we have had statement from US showing disappointment over acquittal of Saeed, rest will soon follow.

If Pakistan is serious about eliminating terror, these groups also need to go. Else one day they will also come back to haunt as Taliban did for Pakistan and US and to a certain extent LTTE for India.

You can wait till that day hoping that Kashmir gets resolved first. And in solving Kashmir, supporting these terrorists will act as a deterrent weakening Pakistan's case.



@SKEPTIC

well my friend when did we TURN against the TALIBAN the day we realized that they are a bigger threat to us then INDIA.....

now until kashmir gets resolved we will keep thinknig all these organizations are freedom fighters....the common pakistani won't object government's handling of these organizations until and uness KASHMIR is solved you solve KASHMIR these freedom fighters become redundant.....

and yes not all the members of this organizataion are FREEDOM fighters just like not all of them are TERRORISTS.....so yes we are reluctant to act against people who india considers dangerous while we consider them fighting a JUST cause.....


now what i just said is all HYPOTHETICAL and my own view vary given the organization and people in it.....
 
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While I understand fellow Indian members who think that the arrest was just an eye wash. I can only reply what a solicitor friend told me when Altaf Hussain of MQM found sanctuary in the UK.

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Altaf Hussein has committed no crime in UK and if GOP wants Altaf Hussain to be extradited, they will have to prove in the UK courts of the necessity to do so. This would be almost impossible since Pakistan and UK have no reciprocal agreement for the extradition of criminal suspects.

Unquote.

Pray tell me, would you also accuse UK Gov’t of half hearted measures?

In any civilized country, one cannot imprison a suspect for more than a certain number of days unless officially indicted. Officially indicted can also be released on ‘Bail’ unless it can be proven to the satisfaction of the court that the person in question would be a danger to the society if released o bail.

Hafiz Saeed is a Pakistani national; he did not commit of any crime inside Pakistan. He is only accused of masterminding the Mumbai bombing on the evidence of a single person ( Ajmal Kassab). Pray tell me on what grounds can be kept in detention ad infinitim?

GOP can arrest Hafiz Saeed ‘N’ times but any slick lawyer would be able to get him released on bail.
 
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Well, while members on the forum seem to find it their patriotic duty to defend the release, I was pleased to find the editorial in Dawn which quite resonates with the views expressed by India:

Wanted: better laws

Dawn Editorial
Thursday, 04 Jun, 2009 | 07:35 AM PST |

The release of Hafiz Saeed raises many questions about the sincerity and efficacy of the state in quashing jihadi networks that operate on its soil. It may have been a full bench of the Lahore High Court that ordered Saeed’s release, but the fact is the court was left with little option given the prosecution’s reliance on weak grounds for the extension of the preventive detention of Saeed while he possibly awaits trial on charges related to the Mumbai attacks last November.

At the heart of the issue here is really the question of whether Pakistan’s legal framework is adequate for dealing with men such as Saeed who are the ideological leaders and figureheads of groups which may be engaged in terrorist activities either abroad or on Pakistani soil. Do we have the laws that can put such people out of business while acknowledging the difficulty of tracing any particular crime to a group’s top leadership? It appears not. Clearly, this is a matter for parliament to debate and to draw up a set of a laws as Pakistan presses ahead in its counter-insurgency activities in the northwest and Fata.

The issue is bigger than just Hafiz Saeed and the Mumbai attacks — it extends to militant leaders like Maulana Fazlullah and Baitullah Mehsud, too. Imagine a scenario in which Fazlullah or Mehsud are captured by the state and are held for trial: is it beyond the realm of possibility that they too may be set free on technicalities because the laws of the land are inadequate to deal with such leaders?

Pakistan has tried in the past to put in place special anti-terrorism laws, but because they were too draconian or ran afoul of constitutional safeguards, the superior courts have largely defanged them. No doubt every care must be taken to protect civil liberties and the government must work within the framework of the constitution, but there is clearly a need to acknowledge that militant networks pose a unique threat and therefore sensible, careful and well-drafted legislation must be introduced to tackle the threat. Parliament can be aided in the task by legal experts, retired judges with the relevant experience, and international experts familiar with anti-terrorism laws and their practice around the world.

Finally, a word about India-Pakistan relations and the Mumbai attacks. India is unhappy that Saeed and some of the others arrested in the aftermath of the attacks have been released. At the very least, their release sends a bad sign that the government here is perhaps not up to the task of prosecuting them even if evidence is adduced. The Pakistan government must urgently explain what it plans to do next, or else risk losing another opportunity for peace now that the elections have concluded in India.
 
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While I understand fellow Indian members who think that the arrest was just an eye wash. I can only reply what a solicitor friend told me when Altaf Hussain of MQM found sanctuary in the UK.

Quote

Altaf Hussein has committed no crime in UK and if GOP wants Altaf Hussain to be extradited, they will have to prove in the UK courts of the necessity to do so. This would be almost impossible since Pakistan and UK have no reciprocal agreement for the extradition of criminal suspects.

Unquote.

Pray tell me, would you also accuse UK Gov’t of half hearted measures?

In any civilized country, one cannot imprison a suspect for more than a certain number of days unless officially indicted. Officially indicted can also be released on ‘Bail’ unless it can be proven to the satisfaction of the court that the person in question would be a danger to the society if released o bail.

Hafiz Saeed is a Pakistani national; he did not commit of any crime inside Pakistan. He is only accused of masterminding the Mumbai bombing on the evidence of a single person ( Ajmal Kassab). Pray tell me on what grounds can be kept in detention ad infinitim?

GOP can arrest Hafiz Saeed ‘N’ times but any slick lawyer would be able to get him released on bail.

Dear Niaz Saab,

I have read your posts with great admiration on the forum, and have appreciated your pragmatic views but this one....

Hafiz Saeed has not committed any crime on Pakistani soil!!!

Planning a terrorist attack on another country, running unofficial Jehadi training camps is not a Crime. Laying foundation of a Terrorist Organization (LeT) is not a crime? Raising funds to sustain a terrorist organization is not crime? Do you seriously and honestly believe that Jamaat Ud Dawa had nothing to do with LeT?

Which part seems to be untrue? Hafiz laid foundation for LeT or LeT is a terrorist outfit from which he jumped off just one day before it was declared by GoP. Howzzzat for timing. Just that this line of accusation was not used during the trial makes one doubt the intentions and commitment of GoP regarding Indian concerns.

If all these are not a crime, pray tell me, what does one needs to do to be considered a criminal in Pakistan.

MQM or Altaf hussain was not running any training facility for terrorists in Pakistan in UK. He was not laying foundation for AQ in UK. He was not part of the network providing illegal mercenaries to conduct an attack on Pakistan. For what I know, he was being tried for crimes he had committed earlier in Pakistan before going to UK. The two cases are different as chalk and cheese. MQM is not an internationally or even for that matter domestically recognized terrorist outfit.

Probably, planning and launching a terrorist attack is not considered a crime in Pakistan, but I believe it's not the case.
 
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