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The best ruler of the Indian Subcontinent - Aurangzeb Alamgir

Do you think Alamgir was the best ruler of the subcontinent

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 40.0%
  • No

    Votes: 27 60.0%

  • Total voters
    45
Not Aurangzeb but Tipu Sultan who was not only a nationalist who with the assistance of Napoleon's French army wanted to drive away the British from India, but also was what we now call an Internationalist.

@The_Showstopper even has him as his profile-pic.
 
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Also, one Muslim with whom I used to play cricket used to invite me for drinks (alcohol). I won't call him a close friend but at one period, we used to play regularly. He was basically a driver of a man living near my house. I always declined his invitations as I don't drink alcohol. Even he was somewhat irreligious.

A lot of them will smoke and drink and fcuk. But still won't eat pork.
 
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You will find Hindus who eat beef. Maybe they are communist.

But even "communist" Muslims won't eat pork. Though they will eat beef.

The pork test is the best test to reveal their true beliefs and values. Rest is all pop culture.

This is the problem when you draw False equivalence because you are desperate to find some bridge.
We can't force anyone to eat anything honestly. Similarly, a Muslim would see me not eating beef and then would assume that I'm religions when in fact, that is wrong. Not eating beef is simply part of my culture just like not eating pork is part of their culture now.
 
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We can't force anyone to eat anything honestly. Similarly, a Muslim would see me not eating beef and then would assume that I'm religions when in fact, that is wrong. Not eating beef is simply part of my culture just like not eating pork is part of their culture now.

Its funny how your thought went to "forcing someone to eat something".

Not eating beef might be cultural for you, but not eating pork IS religions for him. That is my point.

And that what I meant by the danger of drawing False equivalence just because you are desperate to build bridges.

Not eating pork is the last vestige of islam they cling too (hangover from their Hindu days), the same way not eating beef is the last vestige of Hinduism "secular" hindus cling too.

Except for Kerala Hindus who eat beef and continue to be hindus.
 
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Not eating beef might be cultural for you, but not eating pork IS religions for him. That is my point.
Not eating beef is actually kind of religious for Hindus as well. But not eating beef does not make me too religious. It's simply the fact that you are giving appreciation to an animal that gives you milk and milk products, works for you on the farm and cow dung too was used for making houses.
And that what I meant by the danger of drawing False equivalence just because you are desperate to build bridges.
Trust me, there are many good Muslims out there and from my encounters, they were mostly Muslim in name but might be just following certain things. Also, there's no problem in Muslims following their religion but they should respect other faiths as well. That's what many Muslims don't understand. For them, it's about some imaginary competition with other faiths.

You know what, no person can follow any religion to the core. That's almost impossible. People follow their religion only when it's convenient for them most of the times.
Not eating pork is the last vestige of islam they cling too (hangover from their Hindu days), the same way not eating beef is the last vestige of Hinduism "secular" hindus cling too.
I may be irreligious but I'm deeply rooted to my land and culture. Sanatana Dharma is actually more about the various deep philosophies than anything else. I certainly follow some philosophies.
Except for Kerala Hindus who eat beef and continue to be hindus.
That's the beauty of our religion. Nothing should be forced on anyone.
 
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Not eating beef is actually kind of religious for Hindus as well. But not eating beef does not make me too religious. It's simply the fact that you are giving appreciation to an animal that gives you milk and milk products, works for you on the farm and cow dung too was used for making houses.

Nobody makes houses out of dung anymore. Protecting the cow is part of our cultural value system. It is what makes us who we are.

Trust me, there are many good Muslims out there and from my encounters, they were mostly Muslim in name but might be just following certain things. Also, there's no problem in Muslims following their religion but they should respect other faiths as well. That's what many Muslims don't understand. For them, it's about some imaginary competition with other faiths.

You do not have to hard sell "good muslims" to me :lol:

The muslims are NOT confused, YOU are the one who is confused. They are CLEAR that they don't respect your faith. Their religion expressly forbids it. You are the fool who is desperate to believe that they do or want to or migh.
They "tolerate" you, they don't respect you (your faith). You think their "tolerance" is "mutual respect". Its NOT. And they know it. YOU are the one who is unaware.

They are not in any "imaginary competition". They are in actual competition. You are the one who wants to consider it "imaginary".

You know what, no person can follow any religion to the core. That's almost impossible. People follow their religion only when it's convenient for them most of the times.

I may be irreligious but I'm deeply rooted to my land and culture. Sanatana Dharma is actually more about the various deep philosophies than anything else. I certainly follow some philosophies.

That's the beauty of our religion. Nothing should be forced on anyone.

Yes, religion is a matter of convenience, but VALUES are not. That is what defines you and your principles and determines your character.

This value system is what you unknowingly call "culture" and philosophy.

They beauty of our religion is that we do not let anything be force on us either. How many Indians did you see stand up against the witch-hunt in UAE ? Most are cheering UAE to persecute more Hindus for free speech in cyberspace. Not one give the slightest though about the rights of that Hindu however hateful he might have been or have said. And these are the same jokers will will oppose CAA for some imaginary "rights" of muslims.

Is this your Philosophy ?

Now tell me about "forcing" something on someone.
 
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It was thanks to Aurangzeb that Mughals rule ended.

His bigotry was what helped Hindus finally realize that it was unacceptable to have Muslims rule. Before him, the Mughals were relatively religiously tolerant and that is why they survived.

I think all Indians owe Aurangzeb a debt. If he had not turned out to be the old version of the Taliban, Hindus would not have rebelled as they did.
 
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Nobody makes houses out of dung anymore. Protecting the cow is part of our cultural value system. It is what makes us who we are.
I know that. I'm talking about older times.
You do not have to hard sell "good muslims" to me :lol:

The muslims are NOT confused, YOU are the one who is confused. They are CLEAR that they don't respect your faith. Their religion expressly forbids it. You are the fool who is desperate to believe that they do or want to or migh.
They "tolerate" you, they don't respect you (your faith). You think their "tolerance" is "mutual respect". Its NOT. And they know it. YOU are the one who is unaware.
I know that their religion has a special place restricted in jahannum for us so called 'kaffirs' lol even if I give away all my wealth to charity. I also know what would happen if our country becomes Muslim majority (never going to happen) where rights of non-Muslims would be suppressed and only Muslims would be allowed important posts like in Pakistan. Pakistan is actually a good country India to see what would happen if Muslims become majority.

But you have to separate Muslims from Islam. I'm talking about the irreligious guys.

They are not in any "imaginary competition". They are in actual competition. You are the one who wants to consider it "imaginary".
Their competition is certainly imaginary which they think is real. As days go by, people will get more and more rational about things and that includes Muslims. Thousands years from now, people will look back at religions like we look back at civilizations.

Yes, religion is a matter of convenience, but VALUES are not. That is what defines you and your principles and determines your character.
This value system is what you unknowingly call "culture" and philosophy.
Values of most religions are banal. There's nothing in any religion that blowed away my mind except the Upanishads, Bhagavad-Gita and the philosophy of Lord Buddha, maybe even the Jains. We know what to do and what not to do, what is right and what is wrong. You don't need a religion for that. Organized religion is just an idea. Ideas always replace one another. The idea of monarchy has been replaced by ideas of democracy and communism.

They beauty of our religion is that we do not let anything be force on us either. How many Indians did you see stand up against the witch-hunt in UAE ? Most are cheering UAE to persecute more Hindus for free speech in cyberspace. Not one give the slightest though about the rights of that Hindu however hateful he might have been or have said. And these are the same jokers will will oppose CAA for some imaginary "rights" of muslims.

Is this your Philosophy ?

Now tell me about "forcing" something on someone.
I don't know about others but I certainly don't oppose the CAA. Regarding rights of Hindus in UAE, I think you should respect the land that you live in. We don't want Hindus to be looked like intolerant people like Muslims are looked as intolerant people. For example, I won't go to US and abuse Trump after going there even if he does something wrong as I should realize that I'm living as a foreigner in US. Of course, I will criticize if I have no fear of deportation. It's all about what's at stake.

In the age of internet, people still haven't realized the difference from real life and virtual life. Nor have governments. It certainly is up for debate about whether a virtual abuse is the same as real life abuse. You'll certainly see some interesting laws in the future pertaining to that.
 
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I know that their religion has a special place restricted in jahannum for us so called 'kaffirs' lol. I also know what would happen if our country becomes Muslim majority (never going to happen) where rights of non-Muslims would be suppressed and only Muslims would be allowed important posts like in Pakistan. Pakistan is actually a good country India to see what would happen if Muslims become majority.

But you have to separate Muslims from Islam. I'm talking about the irreligious guys.

And I am telling you that they ARE hardly any irreligious muslims.

Even the Naserudding shan and javed Akhtars of the world (who claim to be atheist) will glorified Khilji and other j!hadi invaders. Will claim mughals gave us chicken tikka and kababs and biryani and Taj Mahal and seek our gratitude.

They will deny Hindu holocaust without batting an eyelid.

And those who don't like Abdul kalam will be social outcasts for the vast majority, only to be cheered on by majority Hindus.

Its not enough that I separate muslims and Islam, First THEY need to seperate the two. And that is where the "Pork test" ccomes in. Only a muslim who has successfully separated himself from islam will eat pork & beef or abstain from all non veg.

Also pakistan IS a muslim majority India. Filled with people like your friend who drinks and girl friend who claim to be "moderate". That is what you fail to grasp.


Their competition is certainly imaginary which they think is real. As days go by, people will get more and more rational about things and that includes Muslims. Thousands years from now, people will look back at religions like we look back at civilizations.

Religion is NOT rational. And LIFE is NOT Rational. It is YOU who will realize how shallow "rational" is in the larger scheme of things.

Values of most religions are banal. There's nothing in any religion that blowed away my mind except the Upanishads and the philosophy of Lord Buddha, maybe even the Jains. We know what to do and what not to do, what is right and what is wrong. You don't need a religion for that. Organized religion is just an idea. Ideas always replace one another. The idea of monarchy has been replaced by ideas of democracy and communism.

Values are formed from consistent social and cultural experiences.

Have you even read the quran ? which Upanishads have you read ? Which buddhist tests have you read ? By the way you talks I can confidently say you have not read a single book on religion, philosophy or values.

Which is ok, just don't claim to know these stuff.

Idea and Ideals of Democracy has been etched on temples in south India.

OTOH Organized religion is Organized for a specific purpose. Political power. Which is why they are so dangeorus.

Which is why Hinduism is an unorganized religion made up of sects and schools that provide freedom to experience and experiment. They are not "ideas", they come from living experiences and practices.

I don't know about others but I certainly don't oppose the CAA. Regarding rights of Hindus in UAE, I think you should respect the land that you live in. We don't want Hindus to be looked like intolerant people like Muslims are looked as intolerant people. For example, I won't go to US and abuse Trump after going there even if he does something wrong as I should realize that I'm living as a foreigner in US. Of course, I will criticize if I have no fear of deportation. It's all about what's at stake.

US does not prosecute you if you abuse Trump or abuse Christianity. So when in US you are free to do either if you want to.

Neither does India.

But why do we have a separate set of values systems for the Muslims and their islamic kingdoms ? Why this hypocrisy ?

Let UAE impose its Laws. That is their right. But why are INDIANS not standing up AGAINST SUCH discriminatory laws and for rights of Indians and Hindus ?

My problem is not with the UAE. My problem is with Indians who support UAE rather than fellow Indians and their Rights. Not Law, but Rights. Like the right to be treated with respect and be given a FAIR hearing.

Did you see any of the persecuted Indian in the UAE get those rights ? Did you see any Indian DEMAND those rights for fellow INDIANS ? AND THESE ARE THE SAME JOKERS WHO ACCUSE OTHERS OF "hate". You see the irony ?

In the age of internet, people still haven't realized the difference from real life and virtual life. Nor have governments. It certainly is up for debate about whether a virtual abuse is the same as real life abuse. You'll certainly see some interesting laws in the future pertaining to that.

Be that it may, I am seeking a voice for those persecuted Indians. Even if they are criminals and bigots and hateful, don't they need a voice and someone to speak for them ? Do you see anybody do that ? the champions of "free speech" and "liberal thinking". They are the ones baying for Hindu blood. That is a lesson you need to learn.
 
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Islamic loot: How the Mughals drained wealth out of India

Aurangzeb: A cut above

The cruel and fanatic Mughal emperor Aurangzeb was perhaps the biggest Indian donor to Muslim lands. During the years 1661-67, he received at his court the kings of Persia, Balkh (in Afghanistan), Bukhara, Kashgar (in Xinjiang, China), Urganj (Khiva) and Shahr-i-Nau (in Iran), and the Turkish governors of Basra (in Iraq).

According to the Cambridge History of India, “His policy was to dazzle the eyes of these princes by lavish gift of presents to them and to their envoys, and thus induce the outer Muslim world to forget his treatment of his father and brothers. The fame of India as a soft milch cow spread throughout the middle and near East, and the minor embassies were merely begging expeditions.”

On the embassies received and the return-embassies sent out, Aurangzeb spent in presents nearly Rs 3 million in the course of seven years, besides the large sums which he annually distributed at Mecca and the gift of Rs 1 million to Abdullah Khan, the deposed king of Kashgar, who had taken refuge in India in 1668 and died at Delhi in 1675.

The Sharif of Mecca in particular used to send his agents to the Delhi court every year with the object of levying contributions in the name of the Prophet, till Aurangzeb’s patience was worn out and he stopped all donations to the Sharif. However, the flow of cash to Mecca continued – Aurangzeb sent his gifts to scholars and mendicants through his own agents.

Ripoff artists from the Islamic crescent

Mughal gift giving was a purely one-way street as far as the flow of wealth was concerned because the return gifts were pretty pathetic or at best ordinary and base. This is illustrated by an episode from the travelogue of Francois Bernier, the Frenchman who spent a considerable length of time in Delhi.

In 1664, the Christian monarch of Ethiopia sent an embassy represented by two ambassadors – an Armenian Christian named Murat and a Muslim merchant. They arrived in Delhi with the following ‘gifts’ – a mule skin, the horn of an ox, some arrack and a few famished and half-naked African slaves.

Upon receiving them, Aurangzeb presented the embassy with a brocade sash, a silken and embroidered girdle, and a turban of the same materials and workmanship; and gave orders for their maintenance in the city. Later at an audience, he invested each with another sash and made them a present of Rs 6,000. However, the fanatic that he was, Aurangzeb divided the money unequally – “the Mahomaten receiving four thousand roupies, and Murat, because a Christian, only two thousand”.

And that wasn’t the end of Aurangzeb’s largesse. The cunning merchant solemnly promised Aurangzeb that he would urge his King to permit the repair of a mosque in Ethiopia, which had been destroyed by the Portuguese. Hearing this, the emperor gave the ambassadors Rs 2,000 more in anticipation of this service.

Another interesting embassy came from the Uzbek Tatars. The two envoys and their servants brought some boxes of lapis-lazuli, a few long-haired camels, several horses, some camel loads of fresh fruit, such as apples, pears, grapes, and melons, and many loads of dry fruit.

The embassy which was led by two Tatars is described by Bernier as remarkable for the “filthiness of their persons”. He adds: “There are probably no people more narrow minded, sordid, or unclean than the Uzbek Tatars.”

But to Aurangzeb – who otherwise took the greatest offence at the smallest of slights – the wretched condition of the stinking embassy was a minor inconvenience that could be easily overlooked. All that mattered was that the beneficiaries were Muslims. So, in the presence of all his courtiers, he invested each of them with two rich sashes and Rs 8,000 in cash. Plus, a large number of the richest and most exquisitely wrought brocades, a quantity of fine linens, silk material interwoven with gold and silver, a few carpets, and two daggers set with precious stones.

In total Aurangzeb sent Rs 70 lakh to Muslim countries in six years. “This amount was almost twice the total revenue of England,” “This wasn’t foreign diplomacy since nothing but Islamic relics ever came back in return. The same Aurangzeb hanged to trees all Indian peasants who had defaulted on tax.”


Reality of Mughal rule

Leftist and secular historians are right about one thing – the Mughals were the richest dynasty of their time. But wealth has never been the yardstick for greatness. What they don’t see is the reality hiding in plain sight – India under the Mughals was one of the most miserable countries in the world. The relentless wars of the Mughals, in particular Aurangzeb’s 28 year war of attrition with the Marathas, and the loot of the peasantry were the prime reasons why the Indian economy was in tatters. In contrast to the previous Hindu rulers who taxed the farmers just 16 per cent of the total produce, the Mughal tax rate was 30-50 per cent, plus some additional cesses.

As Bernier observed, gold and silver “are not in greater plenty here than elsewhere; on the contrary, the inhabitants have less the appearance of a moneyed people than those of many other parts of the globe”. This is perhaps the greatest indictment of Mughal rule – that the richest empire in the world also had the greatest mass of poor citizens.

Even during Jehangir’s time, the English ambassador Thomas Roe had noted the backwardness of the countryside. While his eyes dazzled at the mountains of diamonds, rubies and pearls displayed in the Mughal court, he also noted the generally large number of destitute people – all along the route from Surat to Delhi.

Under Aurangzeb’s rule the condition of the people worsened. It is “a tyranny often so excessive as to deprive the peasant and artisan of the necessaries of life, and leave them to die of misery and exhaustion,” writes Bernier.

It is owing to this miserable system of government that most towns in Hindoustan are made up of earth, mud, and other wretched materials; that there is no city or town which, if it be not already ruined and deserted, does not bear evident marks of approaching decay.

A significant reason for India’s growing backwardness under the Mughals – as it was under the previous Sultanate Period of 334 years – was a predatory and unsustainable economic system institutionalised by India’s new rulers who had supplanted the country’s ancient Hindu royal houses.

Labourers perish due to bad treatment from Governors. Children of poor are carried away as slaves. Peasantry abandon the country driven by despair. As the land throughout the whole empire is considered the property of the sovereign, there can be no earldoms, marquisates or duchies. The royal grants consist only of pensions, either in land or money, which the king gives, augments, retrenches or takes away at pleasure.”

According to historian K.S. Lal, All the resources available in India were fully exploited to provide comforts and luxuries to the Muslim ruling and religious classes. “Muslim chronicles vouch for this fact. They also vouch for the fact that the enjoyment of the Muslim elite was provided mainly by the poorest peasants through a crushing tax system.”

from a hindu perspective every muslim ruler was evil, tyrant, and looted india according to your latest accusation and every hindu ruler was sent from heaven.

regards
 
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from a hindu perspective every muslim ruler was evil, tyrant, and looted india according to your latest accusation and every hindu ruler was sent from heaven.

regards

Why don't you let the FACTS speak for themselves ?

How many institutions of learning did the muslim ruler create ? How many work of literature was written during their time ? How much did the per capital income rise during their rule ? How many canals and wells did they dig and create ?
 
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And I am telling you that they ARE hardly any irreligious muslims.
There are plenty and the numbers are rising.
Even the Naserudding shan and javed Akhtars of the world (who claim to be atheist) will glorified Khilji and other j!hadi invaders. Will claim mughals gave us chicken tikka and kababs and biryani and Taj Mahal and seek our gratitude.
Naseeruddin Shah has a Hindu wife. He didn't convert her. Javed Akhtar has talked against Islam plenty of times.
They will deny Hindu holocaust without batting an eyelid.
Yes, I've observed that.
Its not enough that I separate muslims and Islam, First THEY need to seperate the two. And that is where the "Pork test" ccomes in. Only a muslim who has successfully separated himself from islam will eat pork & beef or abstain from all non veg.
My previous point stands for this as I can correlate with myself eating beef which is not possible though I'm irreligious.
Also pakistan IS a muslim majority India. Filled with people like your friend who drinks and girl friend who claim to be "moderate". That is what you fail to grasp.
I know. That's why I said Pakistan is a good example of what would happen to India if India becomes Muslim majority.
Have you even read the quran ? which Upanishads have you read ? Which buddhist tests have you read ? By the way you talks I can confidently say you have not read a single book on religion, philosophy or values.

Which is ok, just don't claim to know these stuff.
I agree that I haven't read all these books. I just know the superficial things or the important things in it.
OTOH Organized religion is Organized for a specific purpose. Political power. Which is why they are so dangeorus.

Which is why Hinduism is an unorganized religion made up of sects and schools that provide freedom to experience and experiment. They are not "ideas", they come from living experiences and practices.
Yep. Organized religion is certainly dangerous. Which makes me appreciate Sanatana Dharma even more.
US does not prosecute you if you abuse Trump or abuse Christianity. So when in US you are free to do either if you want to.

Neither does India.

But why do we have a separate set of values systems for the Muslims and their islamic kingdoms ? Why this hypocrisy ?

Let UAE impose its Laws. That is their right. But why are INDIANS not standing up AGAINST SUCH discriminatory laws and for rights of Indians and Hindus ?

My problem is not with the UAE. My problem is with Indians who support UAE rather than fellow Indians and their Rights. Not Law, but Rights. Like the right to be treated with respect and be given a FAIR hearing.

Did you see any of the persecuted Indian in the UAE get those rights ? Did you see any Indian DEMAND those rights for fellow INDIANS ? AND THESE ARE THE SAME JOKERS WHO ACCUSE OTHERS OF "hate". You see the irony ?
I see your point. Some Middle Eastern countries are discriminatory and people should start voicing their concerns about their discriminatory laws. But we don't have a strong UN and since those countries are just independent entities, we can't do anything about it for now.
Be that it may, I am seeking a voice for those persecuted Indians. Even if they are criminals and bigots and hateful, don't they need a voice and someone to speak for them ? Do you see anybody do that ? the champions of "free speech" and "liberal thinking". They are the ones baying for Hindu blood. That is a lesson you need to learn.
They certainly deserve a fair trial.
 
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