The Bear And The Other Side Of The Mountain

[Patriot]

Also i recommend you people to read
Art of War. Vladimir Grigoriev. Facts of the war history. Soviet - Afghan Group Of S. Amosov
Written by Former Soviet Soldiers who fought in Afghanistan War.
Some Excerpts

Having seen impossibility to stay on exposed, from all sides, to enemies fire hill, Amosov and Demchenko decided to come downhill leading the wounded soldiers to the ravine, besides, towards that time company commander group was released from kishlak and was withdrawing, together with the 1st platoon, to its regular position.

Three our soldiers and two Ltsarandoysі stayed on the top of the hill in order to cover withdrawing group. They repulsed the first attack and got few minutes of respite. That time wasn-t even enough to bandage wounds (their comrades found later dressing packets near their, mutilated by bullets and stones, bodies). The second attack began and all of them were killed. At the same time the group of Pakistan special forces about one hundred in number, outflanked the knoll on the left side and moved along the dry river-bed hiding on the terrace at hill-s foot. It was enough for them to spend only one hour for the march from their training centre, located near the border, to Gandzhgal.Having let Russian group to approach at distance of 50 metres, Pakistan soldiers rose above their shelters and fired to our group. Everything was over for half a minute. They approached to our soldiers, finished wounded ones, took weapon, ammunition, took their shoes off and taking off the uniform from Ltsarandoyі left the place.

 

[gubbi]

That's 15,000 deaths. Not casualties.

If you take casualties from war the number is closer to 70,000 (15k killed, 55k injured). If you take the numbers of troops who fell victim to disease (military terminology seems to treat these as casualties as well, I think because of loss of fighting effectiveness), the number is 469,685 casualties, or "73% of the overall force..that ultimately returned to the Soviet Union".

The source for the above is the link given by S-2 in his first post on the thread.

Check the links I have posted at the bottom. One has around 40 pages of posts, many from experts on the war.
The other is an op piece from a naval war college prof.

Yes, those deaths were unfortunately due to lack of proper COIN techniques!

And I never said the SU won, I said the SU 'almost 'never lost a battle witht he mujaheddin, but ultimately lost the war.

The systematic withdrawal of forces...we seem to be dealing with euphemisms. Is that another term for victory? Why did they withdraw?

You win battles but lose wars! When the soviets returned to the same village the next day, there were other fighters who took the place of those killed by the soviets the previous day. That is a very similar problem the NATO is facing today in Afghanistan!

This is an irrelevant argument. What does the fact that others meddled in Afghanistan, or settled scores have to do with anything? They've been doing that since Alexander went through, Genghis Khan even. It's a given for Afghanistan.

Cold-War! And as a payback to the Su for their meddling in Vietnam!
Its not a given for Afghanistan. History speaks otherwise. The afghan tribes are a unreliable lot. They change loyalties on a whim and money! Thats why it is difficult to keep them on any one side. For eg, many mujaheddin who were fighting the Taliban in early 90's switched sides to join them later when offered monetary rewards!

On another note, I could well say that Germany would have won WWII had it not been for US and Russian 'meddling'.

Isnt that exactly why the Third Reich collapsed?

I would like to know of a strategic or long term military objective that the Soviets gained, instead of putting money, lives and time into that sinkhole.

They had none! They were in Afghanistan on an invitation by the then commie government of Afghanistan! Read the op piece below.

You may be assuming that I haven't read up on Afghanistan. I'm not an expert, but I'm not totally unfamiliar to events in that region.

Neither am I, but I did get to read some very interesting pieces and thats how I formed my opinion. no hard feelings mate.

Obviously the mujahadeen would not have won without US material support - stingers in particular made a significant battlefield shift. But to my mind, saying that the Soviets won is to indulge in revisionist history.

They, the mujaheddin, were bumbling fools who couldnt properly handle the stingers! On many other forums, you will find some ex-SU helo pilots, Afghan war vets, who say that large caliber AA guns were more of a threat than the Stingers!

The Soviet Victory That Never Was

Spetsnaz had defeated the Mujahidden by the summer of 1986

Its a fairy tale which some people weave about SU loss in Afghanistan because of the mujaheddin! The war was lost for a lot of other reason as well, one being the lack of SU political will to continue without a well defined objective and SU's beginning internal turmoil.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

................
And I never said the SU won, I said the SU 'almost 'never lost a battle witht he mujaheddin, but ultimately lost the war.

You win battles but lose wars! When the soviets returned to the same village the next day, there were other fighters who took the place of those killed by the soviets the previous day. That is a very similar problem the NATO is facing today in Afghanistan!

..........

In that case you and I agree.

I was simply trying to voice my opinion against - you've not done it as you clarified - some people going back and reclaiming history. As you explained, that was not what you were doing.

 

[s6demon]

AFAIK, most people there are vetted military pros. Enough said.
What do you know about the SU's Afghan invasion? Do you understand how and why the SU collapsed? On one hand you imply a strong almost unbreakable political will of the erstwhile SU and OTOH you talk about how weak the SU regime was. Now what exactly is it?
BTW, the soviet battles were and are studied carefully by many western (read NATO) experts and trying to learn how to "win" in Afghanistan. SU almost never lost a battle, but failed to hold on to large swathes of territory giving the Mujaheddin almost a free reign. Couple that with a constant stream of funding form the Americans and the Saudis and sanctuaries and camps in Pakistan. Inspite of all this, the mujaheddin still could not dislodge Najibullah after the soviets left, not till the collapse of the SU! Go figure.

Source? Or is it just propagandist BS that YOU, my friend, are spouting, just like many other little read friends? There are people that I would expect that out of, but the Russians in Afghanistan or Chechnya...nah! Its the other way around. You see commies do not have a religion and are not religious fanatics to cut people left and right (shooting is a different ball game).

okay now you are just pissing me off.

An Afghan resistance leader recounted how Soviet soldiers treated civilians who were left behind when another village was abandoned: "The Russians tied dynamite to their backs and blew them up." Another eyewitness described a fiendish practice that Russians used to extract information about the mujahadeen (Muslim freedom fighters): "They would slowly roast a child over fire".

The Soviets also, reportedly would encircle villages, enter every dwelling, and kill every inhabitant, including old men, women and children. Before leaving, they would burn down the entire village.[1] A 1986 report gives a chilling account:

"In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retaliation for a Mujahadeen attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition."[2]

Home / Headlines / Casualties and War Crimes in Afghanistan - Media Monitors Network (MMN)


The whole world knows what kind of atrocities they commited in Afghanistan and for you to start to argue against is just f'ing dispicable. I was going to reply in more detail but your previous denial has lead me to not even bother. ill let you be the resident douchebag who condones massacres.


The Report that the U.N. Wants to Suppress : Soviet Atrocities in Afghanistan

Afghanistan

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/atrocities.pdf

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/witnesses.pdf

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/children.pdf



ooh and here is a funny little source for you. you doubt russian atrocities in chechneya?

"I remember a Chechen female sniper. We just tore her apart with two armored personnel carriers, having tied her ankles with steel cables. There was a lot of blood, but the boys needed it."
"The main thing is to have them die slowly. You don't want them to die fast, because a fast death is an easy death."

"The summary executions don't just take place against suspected fighters. One 33-year-old army officer recounted how he drowned a family of five--four women and a middle-aged man--in their own well."

"You should not believe people who say Chechens are not being exterminated. In this Chechen war, it's done by everyone who can do it," he said. "There are situations when it's not possible. But when an opportunity presents itself, few people miss it."

"I would kill all the men I met during mopping-up operations. I didn't feel sorry for them one bit."

"It's much easier to kill them all. It takes less time for them to die than to grow."

"So there will be one Chechen less on the planet, so what? Who will cry for him?"


WAR HAS NO RULES FOR RUSSIAN FORCES BATTLING CHECHEN REBELS
Troops admit committing atrocities against guerrillas and civilians.
It's part of the military culture of impunity, they say.
But many now have troubled consciences.

here is a "vetted" (LMAO) source for you:

Russian atrocities in Chechnya [Archive] - Military Photos


after reading your comments i cant for the love of me come to a conclusion weather you are a bumbling idiot or just plain evil

 

[gubbi]

okay now you are just pissing me off.

Funny, your reaction when I asked for sources!

Home / Headlines / Casualties and War Crimes in Afghanistan - Media Monitors Network (MMN)

The whole world knows what kind of atrocities they commited in Afghanistan and for you to start to argue against is just f'ing dispicable.

Of course, they did not have proper COIN strategies and that led to frustration. Happens with the bet of the armies. There were reports of atrocities by PA in NWFP earlier. I stand corrected on the atrocities part.
I do not condone such heinous acts, but atleast they were not religiously motivated like the Beslan tragedy or the daily strikes in Pakistan we get to see these days.
Of course you would also tend to overlook what those mujaheddins did to the captured soviet soldiers. I guess thats acceptable by you.

ooh and here is a funny little source for you. you doubt russian atrocities in chechneya?

here is a "vetted" (LMAO) source for you:

Russian atrocities in Chechnya [Archive] - Military Photos

after reading your comments i cant for the love of me come to a conclusion weather you are a bumbling idiot or just plain evil

Oh so you support Mujaheddin or the Taliban only because they are your fellow religious brethern? Here's a little something you missed from the very source you posed....

"A young soldier might kill just to test his gun, or if he’s curious to see what the inside of a human being looks like or whats inside a smashed head. But there is also the fact that if you don’t kill, you’ll get killed

Let me say this, the Chechens had it coming considering what they had done! I have no sympathies for those who use guns in the name of religion and kill people!

And hey, whats so LAMO about vetted personnel? Anyhow like I said, what would you know.....

edit:
on one of your sources "Afghanistan", heres what I found about the author..

Mohammad Hassan Kakar holds a B.A. from Kabul University and an M.Phil. and Ph.D. in history from the University of London. He has been a Visiting Research Fellow at the Middle Eastern Centers of Princeton University and Harvard University in the United States. For many years he taught history at Kabul University, where in 1981 he became a professor. He has also served as chair of the history department there. In 1982 the Kabul regime arrested him for his opposition to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Of course he had an axe to grind against the soviets! Contrary to western sources, SU did not just invade Afghanistan...they were "invited", if you may, by the Govt of the day to save their arses!

 

[s6demon]

Of course, they did not have proper COIN strategies and that led to frustration. Happens with the bet of the armies. There were reports of atrocities by PA in NWFP earlier. I stand corrected on the atrocities part.
I do not condone such heinous acts, but atleast they were not religiously motivated like the Beslan tragedy or the daily strikes in Pakistan we get to see these days.
Of course you would also tend to overlook what those mujaheddins did to the captured soviet soldiers. I guess thats acceptable by you.

Oh so you support Mujaheddin or the Taliban only because they are your fellow religious brethern? Here's a little something you missed from the very source you posed....

Let me say this, the Chechens had it coming considering what they had done! I have no sympathies for those who use guns in the name of religion and kill people!

And hey, whats so LAMO about vetted personnel? Anyhow like I said, what would you know.....

I will make it easy for you, just stop now and save your conscience.

this is something that isnt in argument. its a simple clearly known fact that the entire world is aware of. The russians commited massacres and attrocities wherever they went. They have commited so many killings, rapes, massaces in Chechneya and in RECENT TIMES which cannot be refuted or argued with.

You can NOT, no matter how you package it, put the blame of massace on the people who were killed.


p.s. the reason i was laughing about "vetted" members of that forum was because no one "vetts" online members. because nobody gives a crap. and especially when this is the level of the conversation at that piece of crap forum.

goldman, STFU you Albanian piece of ****. Oh **** I'd be pissed if someone way younger than me told me that. But your ALbanian you're supposed to be a pussy.

Oh and the other guy, you dont think that US and many European countries have complained about Russia's treatment of Chechen scum???

you're an idiot.

Oh what a respond, it really hurts my feeling coming from a dick head that still thinks he is living in 13th century

 

[s6demon]

edit:on one of your sources "Afghanistan", heres what I found about the author..

Of course he had an axe to grind against the soviets! Contrary to western sources, SU did not just invade Afghanistan...they were "invited", if you may, by the Govt of the day to save their arses!

I can honestly give you 10 more sources in 5 mins. this issue is something that everyone knows of and has been written extensively about, hence is widely available everywhere so its not even an issue.

that is why i keep saying, the russian attrocities in Chechneya and Afghanistan is something that EVERYONE knows about. its not like it is some obscure gossip. ITS WORLD NEWS.

 

[gubbi]

I will make it easy for you, just stop now and save your conscience.

I dont have any. Thanks for trying!

this is something that isnt in argument. its a simple clearly known fact that the entire world is aware of. The russians commited massacres and attrocities wherever they went. They have commited so many killings, rapes, massaces in Chechneya and in RECENT TIMES which cannot be refuted or argued with.

Its funny when you say this. Its ok for NATO and PA to suppress the taliban in north west provinces and Afghanistan, For PA to suppress rebels in Baluchistan, but is "atrocities" by the Russians when they try to put down a savage religiously motivated rebellion in one of their federal provinces?
You rebel against a state when you have other proper channels at your disposal to protest, the state reacts! You bring in religion and make it messy, the state makes it messier. Period.
I really find your views biased, my friend. But hey, its your opinion.

You can NOT, no matter how you package it, put the blame of massace on the people who were killed.

I am with you on this one. You are right about this. But war is ugly and ugly things happen. I do wish it were otherwise, but alas.

p.s. the reason i was laughing about "vetted" members of that forum was because no one "vetts" online members. because nobody gives a crap. and especially when this is the level of the conversation at that piece of crap forum.

Lol, dont military personnel have their own little personal opinions? Anyhow the Balkan and the caucauss states have so much historical rivalries, its not surprising to see that spill over in many online forums! Thats but few posts..what about the historians and military personnel who posted there? Those arent a bunch of airsofterners or wannbes!

that is why i keep saying, the russian attrocities in Chechneya and Afghanistan is something that EVERYONE knows about. its not like it is some obscure gossip. ITS WORLD NEWS.

One side of the story. The other side?

 

[s6demon]

I dont have any. Thanks for trying!

Its funny when you say this. Its ok for NATO and PA to suppress the taliban in north west provinces and Afghanistan, For PA to suppress rebels in Baluchistan, but is "atrocities" by the Russians when they try to put down a savage religiously motivated rebellion in one of their federal provinces?
You rebel against a state when you have other proper channels at your disposal to protest, the state reacts! You bring in religion and make it messy, the state makes it messier. Period.

not when your regime is widely considered to be one of the worst and most brutal regimes of the past three or four centuries.

I dont like to quote wikipedia and this isnt about the information on this wikipedia but if your country's crimes are numerous enough and attrocious enough to warrent an entire page dedicated to "KNOWN" and "ADMITTED" war crimes then you dont have a leg to stand on.

Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


also: Afghanistan a "federal province" of russia? WHAT??? are we still talking about this dimension of reality or an alternate one?

 

[gubbi]

not when your regime is widely considered to be one of the worst and most brutal regimes of the past three or four centuries.

Depends from which perspective you see. Americans are considered brutal by the native Indians who were nearly wiped out and their lands claimed by the USA in their expansion. So would the Mexicans from whom the Americans took Texas. Or the Chinese for that matter and their actions in Tibet, or the Japanese crimes in China.

I dont like to quote wikipedia and this isnt about the information on this wikipedia but if your country's crimes are numerous enough and attrocious enough to warrent an entire page dedicated to "KNOWN" and "ADMITTED" war crimes then you dont have a leg to stand on.

Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


also: Afghanistan a "federal province" of russia? WHAT??? are we still talking about this dimension of reality or an alternate one?

The Soviet Army was called or rather invited by the Afghan govt of the day to save itself from meddlers. They left a competent but feared and despised (by Pak and US) Najibullah who continued his reign till the SU collapsed.

The Soviets werent the only ones to commit atrocities, everyone does. Americans did it in Vietnam, the Japs did that to the Chinese!
No army is taught to be brutal and kill civilians or commit human rights violations. But in absence of a good leadership and proper defined war objectives, things spiral out of hand. The other side being fanatically brutal doesnt help either!

Btw, if you find "province" surprising, then why arent you surprised about Tibet? or Cyprus? Or even Jordan? Things which actually occurred?

 

[s6demon]

Depends from which perspective you see. Americans are considered brutal by the native Indians who were nearly wiped out and their lands claimed by the USA in their expansion. So would the Mexicans from whom the Americans took Texas. Or the Chinese for that matter and their actions in Tibet, or the Japanese crimes in China.

OH jee really???

please tell us all from what perspective wiping out of native Indians not constitute brutality?

The Americans have the balls to admit it, I wonder why an Indian wants to be such an apologist for war crimes and instances of massacres?

The Soviet Army was called or rather invited by the Afghan govt of the day to save itself from meddlers. They left a competent but feared and despised (by Pak and US) Najibullah who continued his reign till the SU collapsed.

The Soviets werent the only ones to commit atrocities, everyone does. Americans did it in Vietnam, the Japs did that to the Chinese!
No army is taught to be brutal and kill civilians or commit human rights violations. But in absence of a good leadership and proper defined war objectives, things spiral out of hand. The other side being fanatically brutal doesnt help either!

the bolded portion made me laugh.

so do i have this right? Your defence of soviet attrocities massacres now is that "oh hey everyone does it?"

 

[gubbi]

OH jee really???

please tell us all from what perspective wiping out of native Indians not constitute brutality?

The Americans have the balls to admit it, I wonder why an Indian wants to be such an apologist for war crimes and instances of massacres?

comprehension problems?
Where did I say wiping out native Indians is not brutality?
Btw, the Russians admitted their role in Afghanistan too, so whats new?

the bolded portion made me laugh.

You apparently don't know much of history. I was discussing with some one who doesn't have full unbiased knowledge of the subject and is neither willing to learn. Oops, my bad.

Thanks for the "delightful" insights into the war.

 

[s6demon]

comprehension problems?
Where did I say wiping out native Indians is not brutality?
Btw, the Russians admitted their role in Afghanistan too, so whats new?

Depends from which perspective you see. Americans are considered brutal by the native Indians who were nearly wiped out and their lands claimed by the USA in their expansion.

i dont know how long youve been in the u.s. but apprently your grasp of the english language isnt all that strong.

give it time.

 

[MastanKhan]

I dont have any. Thanks for trying!

Its funny when you say this. Its ok for NATO and PA to suppress the taliban in north west provinces and Afghanistan, For PA to suppress rebels in Baluchistan, but is "atrocities" by the Russians when they try to put down a savage religiously motivated rebellion in one of their federal provinces?
You rebel against a state when you have other proper channels at your disposal to protest, the state reacts! You bring in religion and make it messy, the state makes it messier. Period.
I really find your views biased, my friend. But hey, its your opinion.

I am with you on this one. You are right about this. But war is ugly and ugly things happen. I do wish it were otherwise, but alas.

Lol, dont military personnel have their own little personal opinions? Anyhow the Balkan and the caucauss states have so much historical rivalries, its not surprising to see that spill over in many online forums! Thats but few posts..what about the historians and military personnel who posted there? Those arent a bunch of airsofterners or wannbes!

One side of the story. The other side?

Hi,

From a poster like you---it is a bad analysis and comparison between the the atrocities committed by the russians against the chehcens or the afghans in relation to nato and PA---.

Even though we may say that nato is responsible of indiscriminate killings during bombing raids---they have not torn apart people---roasted children or drowned women and children in front of their families. Don't get me wrong---NATO has its own cross to bear---but what the russians did was totally inhuman---and as it was done to the muslims and as the muslims were the victims---the christian world didnot care much about it.

 

[gubbi]

Hi,

From a poster like you---it is a bad analysis and comparison between the the atrocities committed by the russians against the chehcens or the afghans in relation to nato and PA---.

Apologies if I sounded any other way. I was replying to the earlier post. However, the soviets did commit atrocities as did the Americans in Vietnam. That doesnt wash off crimes by any of the parties.
That being said, the SU army was trained in conventional warfare and when suddenly faced by a vicious guerrilla warfare, the commanders and the politicians didnt know how to handle it. Excesses were indeed committed due to frustration on the part of the soldiers. Happens everywhere where a proper COIN apparatus in not properly in place. Infact Indians did it in the initial stages in Punjab and even in Kashmir!!

Even though we may say that nato is responsible of indiscriminate killings during bombing raids---they have not torn apart people---roasted children or drowned women and children in front of their families. Don't get me wrong---NATO has its own cross to bear---but what the russians did was totally inhuman---and as it was done to the muslims and as the muslims were the victims---the christian world didnot care much about it.

Everyone cares whether the victims be of muslim or christian or of any other faith. Didnt the Americans interfere in Afghanistan, though the cold-war did play a part for their role? Or for that matter NATO intervening in Kosovo? It has got nothing to do with religion.
The Afghan govt was a commie govt supported by the SU. They asked the SU to send in forces to help them and thats what the SU did. They then got mired in a guerrilla warfare and 'things', bad, happened. But during the SU occupation, Kabul was a thriving city, unlike that after the Mujaheddin took over!
As for Chechnya, the militants had it coming. I do not support Haebus corpus for non-state combatants. If you attack a state's machinery, the state will respond, with all the power at its disposal. The Russians did what they had to do to keep Chechnya in line. Isnt that exactly what the PA is doing in Pakistan's western regions?